Unclean meats

[FLO]

Good point FLO. For me I see most of the rules that God gave the Israelites in Leviticus, for our benefit. How to treat each other and for sanitary concerns, etc. Its the rules and laws that the Jews themselves made that are really not binding. The laws that were done away with at the Cross, were the ones that pointed to the Messiah and his crucifixion that are not needed anymore. All the sanctuary rules and regulation's etc. He didn't get rid of the 10 commandments, and those rules that have to do with cleanliness, etc. He also didn't do away with what we can and can't eat. Those are still good for us today. If I'm guessing this is what your getting at Flo? If not sorry.

Hey PK,

Yeah, I agree with you regarding the things that weren't done away with. (i.e. 10 commandments, rules about cleanliness, dietary laws, etc...) I also agree that any laws that the Jews themselves added to the law are irrelevant. As no one should be adding laws anyways... "You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you." - Deut. 4:2

What I'm concerned about is what we claim was done away with. "laws that pointed to the Messiah and his crucifixion that are not needed anymore" is quite subjective. Who decides what laws pointed to the cross and which ones don't?

For example, many Sunday keeping churches have no problem throwing the 7th day Sabbath in the "laws that pointed to the cross" category. Obviously they have no idea of the gigantic mistake they are making by doing this, nontheless if there is a category of "laws that were nailed to the cross", then who decides what goes in that category and what doesn't?

We (SDA's) aren't immune to this same mistakes. Another example is of the yearly Sabbaths (Lev 23). Only the spring ones pointed to Jesus' death and resurrection. The Fall ones (Trumpets, Atonement, Tabernacles, Last Great Day) point to Jesus's second coming and won't be entirely fulfilled until He finally comes again. So, how come they all got dumped in the "laws that pointed to the cross and not needed anymore" category when clearly some of them have yet to be completely fulfilled.

Or the story in Numbers 15:32-41 where the man who was caught gathering sticks on the 7th day Sabbath was stoned to death. In the very next verse, God tells the Israelites to attach tassles on the corners of their garments in order to remember God's commandments. And this wasn't about any "pointing to the cross" law, this was given for them to remember ALL of God's commandments and specifically because that one man didn't obey the 7th day Sabbath commandment. So, if we believe that the 7th day Sabbath is still important and binding today (which we do), then why is the command to wear tassles thrown into the "pointing to the cross" laws and done away with?

Do you see where I'm getting at now? There are laws that we claim were "done away" with, yet they don't point to the cross at all, nor does Bible indicate that they are done away with (at least anywhere that I could find).

[FLO]

Yes PK, I would have to agree with you on this but for what Jesus said about what goes into ones mouth does not defile them. That is a real kicker! Truth is, (for me) I try to avoid anything that God would or could find something wrong with. And of course, living near Loma Linda makes it easy and simple to eat clean good food and at my age that's a must! But then I don't 'lord' it over anyone either!

Like I said before. Jesus was not saying that you can now eat anything you want and you won't be defiled by eating unclean foods. If He did, then He would be teaching against the Torah (the law of God) and therefore, that would make Him a false prophet as well as a sinner. Jesus never sinned. Sin is breaking God's Law (the Torah). If Jesus never sinned, then He couldn't have broken any part of God's Law. Therefore, Jesus could not have meant that you can eat unclean animals and you won't be defiled (that would be a sin since He would be teaching against the Torah). He would also be contradicting himself when He said "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets". Jesus was simply telling the Pharisees that you're not defiled by eating without ceremonially washed hands. He did not say that you can now eat whatever you want.

[FLO]

I have never caught on to the thought that Jesus came and died so we could begin eating the scavengers and garbage collectors he created to be the scavengers and garbage collectors.

Just sayin'

I agree 100%.

Pigs = walking garbage cans

[phkrause]

But then I don't 'lord' it over anyone either!

That last piece I can agree whole heartily with you. We should never 'Lord' things over others.

[phkrause]

Hey PK,

Yeah, I agree with you regarding the things that weren't done away with. (i.e. 10 commandments, rules about cleanliness, dietary laws, etc...) I also agree that any laws that the Jews themselves added to the law are irrelevant. As no one should be adding laws anyways... "You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you." - Deut. 4:2

What I'm concerned about is what we claim was done away with. "laws that pointed to the Messiah and his crucifixion that are not needed anymore" is quite subjective. Who decides what laws pointed to the cross and which ones don't?

For example, many Sunday keeping churches have no problem throwing the 7th day Sabbath in the "laws that pointed to the cross" category. Obviously they have no idea of the gigantic mistake they are making by doing this, nontheless if there is a category of "laws that were nailed to the cross", then who decides what goes in that category and what doesn't?

We (SDA's) aren't immune to this same mistakes. Another example is of the yearly Sabbaths (Lev 23). Only the spring ones pointed to Jesus' death and resurrection. The Fall ones (Trumpets, Atonement, Tabernacles, Last Great Day) point to Jesus's second coming and won't be entirely fulfilled until He finally comes again. So, how come they all got dumped in the "laws that pointed to the cross and not needed anymore" category when clearly some of them have yet to be completely fulfilled.

Or the story in Numbers 15:32-41 where the man who was caught gathering sticks on the 7th day Sabbath was stoned to death. In the very next verse, God tells the Israelites to attach tassles on the corners of their garments in order to remember God's commandments. And this wasn't about any "pointing to the cross" law, this was given for them to remember ALL of God's commandments and specifically because that one man didn't obey the 7th day Sabbath commandment. So, if we believe that the 7th day Sabbath is still important and binding today (which we do), then why is the command to wear tassles thrown into the "pointing to the cross" laws and done away with?

Do you see where I'm getting at now? There are laws that we claim were "done away" with, yet they don't point to the cross at all, nor does Bible indicate that they are done away with (at least anywhere that I could find).

I see what your getting at. I'm not an expert that's for sure. I do know that there are things in the Bible which we probably will never really be able to answer for ourselves. They will be answered when Jesus comes and we can ask him. But in the mean time, there is nothing wrong with asking and than discussing these things. I try to read what EGW has to say about those areas where there isn't a clear cut answer from the Bible. She does a great job, at least for me, of answering them.

[Dr. Rich]

Yes Flo and PK, I too can see where you are coming from. But my question is this: Is being defiled a sin? I don't thinks so as one would become defiled for many reasons (touching someone dead) so what I see in what Jesus said about what goes into the mouth not being a problem, but what comes out, is more on a spiritual nature and not on health per se.

Yes, both the passover in spring and atonement in the fall were clearly given to Israel to show them what events whould take their place in the future. Jesus was the Passover Lamb and He was also our 'high Priest' who became sanctified (cleansed) so that we too MAY become sanctified as in what God was showing Israel in the fall Atonement process.

Remember, the next group to have their sins cleansed (sanctified) were the Priests tribe--(the Priests found in Rev. 5:9-10 and bondservants found in Rev. 1:1 and Rev. 14:5)

Also remember the next group was the whole kingdom of Israel (KOH-the 'Kingdom' in Rev. 5:9-10 and the 5 wise virgins in Matthew 25)

Therefore, as you correctly wrote, the Atonement will not fully be over until the 7th Trumpet sounds and Jesus comes in the clouds.

[Stan]

It would be nice for those who are question this issues for someone to explain/review this. Please, no rudeness or sarcasm. Let reason prevail.

Quote:

<< Acts 10 >>

9About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. 10He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. 11He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. 12It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles of the earth and birds of the air. 13Then a voice told him, “Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.”

14“Surely not, Lord!” Peter replied. “I have never eaten anything impure or unclean.”

15The voice spoke to him a second time, “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.”

16This happened three times, and immediately the sheet was taken back to heaven.

17While Peter was wondering about the meaning of the vision, the men sent by Cornelius found out where Simon’s house was and stopped at the gate. 18

[Dr. Rich]

Thanks Stan. However, I thought I had already provided an answer (my thoughts only) in regards to this question. But for the record here is my thoughts again:

1. After the flood God gave mankind everything to eat as long as they did not eat the blood in it. Why? Because evil people had been killed by God and of course there were not many things left to eat anyway I suppose.

2. Daniel 2's stone cut out without hands 9:24 points out that God gives Israel/Jews ONE more time (490 years) to become righteous and after that the KOH is taken away and given to another group at the time of the two feet and ten toes. Of course they did not do that.

3. Matthew 21:43 and the fig tree dying show that Israel, as God's chosen people (KOH) were to be just another nation of the world.

4. Israel (the first time) was given God's common law in writing-that being the ten commandments. Of course this common law has always been, just as Go has always been.

5. Since God was their king, He helped them establish Rules, regulations, codes, all called statutes for the new Kingdom of Heaven/God. These statutes caused them to be set apart (holy) from the other nations/kingdoms of the world.

6. Israel ceased being God's Kingdom of Heaven (God left them and called their 'house' desolete. Therefore, ALL of the statutes that the 'King' of Israel established for it's citizens, also ceased to be.

7. Wherefore, Jesus not only showed them that those statutes were void, but explaned it to them when He told them what goes into the mouth does not defile them, but what comes out does. He showed them by telling the man to pick up his bed and walk ON the Sabbath day and by picking food and eating it on the sabbath. He also showed them by eating with 'Gentiles'.

8. The kicker is the vision Peter had THREE times telling Peter that God declared those things that were unclean now to be clean.

4.