Daniel 11

[Gail]

Here's an interesting take on Daniel 11- one that makes more sense than anything I've seen before (and the reason why I haven't studied Daniel 11 more than I have!)

Islam vs Christianity- Tim Roosenberg

I never thought about the King of the North being a SERIES of invading kingdoms, one after the other. I've racked my brain over which one consistent king it might be. But this formula fits quite nicely AND he uses Daniel 11 as a "filing system" for the details of Daniel 2, 7 & 8 (and 9, too)

[Gail]

I am currently also going through Jon Paulien's 60 CD series on Revelation right now, and upon seeing this (above) it reminded me so much of Paulien's counsel about how prophecy was written, even though his focus is on Revelation and Roosenberg's is on Daniel.

I was informed about the "Sealing Time Ministries" website by a customer who ordered a DVD set from it. We are currently selling Roosenberg's book, "Islam vs Christianity" and I've been getting thumbs up from those who've read it. I bought that book but have too much on the go right now to start it.

If anyone has the book or has read it, I would welcome feedback.

[Dr. Rich]

Here's an interesting take on Daniel 11- one that makes more sense than anything I've seen before (and the reason why I haven't studied Daniel 11 more than I have!)

Islam vs Christianity- Tim Roosenberg

I never thought about the King of the North being a SERIES of invading kingdoms, one after the other. I've racked my brain over which one consistent king it might be. But this formula fits quite nicely AND he uses Daniel 11 as a "filing system" for the details of Daniel 2, 7 & 8 (and 9, too)

It appears that the King of the North will be a union of christians, jews and catholics. The King of the South will be a union of Muslim, and all of the 'Eastern Religions". God says they both are evil. So, can someone please tell me what makes Christians evil?

[Lysimachus]

Gail now!

Please don't tell me you haven't heard me (or ClubV12) mention Tim Roosenberg by now here on ClubAdventist!! =P

[Lysimachus]

Originally Posted By: Gail

Here's an interesting take on Daniel 11- one that makes more sense than anything I've seen before (and the reason why I haven't studied Daniel 11 more than I have!)

Islam vs Christianity- Tim Roosenberg

I never thought about the King of the North being a SERIES of invading kingdoms, one after the other. I've racked my brain over which one consistent king it might be. But this formula fits quite nicely AND he uses Daniel 11 as a "filing system" for the details of Daniel 2, 7 & 8 (and 9, too)

It appears that the King of the North will be a union of christians, jews and catholics. The King of the South will be a union of Muslim, and all of the 'Eastern Religions". God says they both are evil. So, can someone please tell me what makes Christians evil?

King of the North will not be Christians.

They will be "false Christians".

That's what's wrong with them. :)

[ClubV12]

What is especially nice about Roosenbergs presentation is the humility factor. To many folks with a view on Daniel seem to make a big deal out of how they were led by the Holy Spirit and they tend to "show off" great piety. Two factors that have become a warning flag for me!

But beyond Roosenbergs humble presentation, he has been careful to present his findings to the "brethren" for consideration. In science circles this is fundamental, it's called "peer review". Not some lone scientist with some new discovery that he and he alone has been "shown", peer review. Counsel of the brethren, nothing to fear, it works or it doesn't.

I have found very little to complain about with Roosenbergs work, it looks pretty solid.

On a sad note, in my local area there has been an on-going Daniel study seminar thing being presented over a period of weeks. It's now in a third church here locally. I was pretty excited because the speaker is using Roosenbergs work for the Chapter 11-12 discussion. However, the speaker is ALSO making extensive referrence to the concept of the 1260, 1290 and 1335 time frames being in the future. In fact, proposing DATES (2027-2031) for when they will start and end!!! You can bet Roosenberg will not be happy about this.

Whew,,, you gotta watch your back constantly when it comes to Daniel, there is some serious heresy floating around out there.

King of the North= "NATO" alliance, fed up with Islam causing trouble and finaly going to stop them once and for all. The battle lines are drawn, "Christians" (so called) against "Eastern Religion" (so called).

Evil Christians? Pffffttt, what else is new. Christian, little more than a name.

[Lysimachus]

What is especially nice about Roosenbergs presentation is the humility factor. To many folks with a view on Daniel seem to make a big deal out of how they were led by the Holy Spirit and they tend to "show off" great piety. Two factors that have become a warning flag for me!

But beyond Roosenbergs humble presentation, he has been careful to present his findings to the "brethren" for consideration. In science circles this is fundamental, it's called "peer review". Not some lone scientist with some new discovery that he and he alone has been "shown", peer review. Counsel of the brethren, nothing to fear, it works or it doesn't.

I have found very little to complain about with Roosenbergs work, it looks pretty solid.

On a sad note, in my local area there has been an on-going Daniel study seminar thing being presented over a period of weeks. It's now in a third church here locally. I was pretty excited because the speaker is using Roosenbergs work for the Chapter 11-12 discussion. However, the speaker is ALSO making extensive referrence to the concept of the 1260, 1290 and 1335 time frames being in the future. In fact, proposing DATES (2027-2031) for when they will start and end!!! You can bet Roosenberg will not be happy about this.

Whew,,, you gotta watch your back constantly when it comes to Daniel, there is some serious heresy floating around out there.

King of the North= "NATO" alliance, fed up with Islam causing trouble and finaly going to stop them once and for all. The battle lines are drawn, "Christians" (so called) against "Eastern Religion" (so called).

Evil Christians? Pffffttt, what else is new. Christian, little more than a name.

Wow, it's amazing how just when you think the truth is coming out, the Devil will throw in a little bit of error into the mix to spoil the whole thing. =/

[Gail]

Gail now!

Please don't tell me you haven't heard me (or ClubV12) mention Tim Roosenberg by now here on ClubAdventist!! =P

I'm sorry, Marcos! I've popped in here and there but don't follow the long, circular discussions. I'm trusting in you to work valiantly! I usually read or speedread but can't catch EVERYTHING

But I'm glad that you see the good work that he's been doing. We've only had his book in the store for a few weeks and it was because of it that customers and I have first become aware of it.

[Gail]

What is especially nice about Roosenbergs presentation is the humility factor. To many folks with a view on Daniel seem to make a big deal out of how they were led by the Holy Spirit and they tend to "show off" great piety. Two factors that have become a warning flag for me!

But beyond Roosenbergs humble presentation, he has been careful to present his findings to the "brethren" for consideration. In science circles this is fundamental, it's called "peer review". Not some lone scientist with some new discovery that he and he alone has been "shown", peer review. Counsel of the brethren, nothing to fear, it works or it doesn't.

I have found very little to complain about with Roosenbergs work, it looks pretty solid.

On a sad note, in my local area there has been an on-going Daniel study seminar thing being presented over a period of weeks. It's now in a third church here locally. I was pretty excited because the speaker is using Roosenbergs work for the Chapter 11-12 discussion. However, the speaker is ALSO making extensive referrence to the concept of the 1260, 1290 and 1335 time frames being in the future. In fact, proposing DATES (2027-2031) for when they will start and end!!! You can bet Roosenberg will not be happy about this.

Whew,,, you gotta watch your back constantly when it comes to Daniel, there is some serious heresy floating around out there.

King of the North= "NATO" alliance, fed up with Islam causing trouble and finaly going to stop them once and for all. The battle lines are drawn, "Christians" (so called) against "Eastern Religion" (so called).

Evil Christians? Pffffttt, what else is new. Christian, little more than a name.

Originally Posted By: Lysimachus

Wow, it's amazing how just when you think the truth is coming out, the Devil will throw in a little bit of error into the mix to spoil the whole thing. =/

There is so much out there that I'm getting to the point where I need blinders or its overwhelming. Although Daniel and Revelation are complex, they are BEAUTIFUL when they all come together to make sense. There are times when I just sit open-mouthed in awe and just have to say along with those creatures around the throne, "Holy, holy, holy"! and praise God.

At the same time, it's scary to see all the different directions. I crumble when I think that "I" am still here when so many others are heading off this way or that. Lord knows I don't have it all down pat and at the same time battle with self and pride, like we all do. But why am I still here???

[Gail]

Having noted what you say above, ClubV12... on the other hand in the store here I've had the most wonderful chats with people, our people. There IS power in those messages and it's coming along. I realise it is tough in some areas to live and witness but light is coming through with power.

[Dr. Rich]

Marcos, what is the difference between a true christian and a false christian? Now, after answering that, please tell me what the difference is between a 'wheat' and a 'tare'?

For God, it's not about any religion, it's all about the Kingdom of Heaven. It's all about those who are found in Rev. 12:17!

[John317]

People cannot read hearts and minds. Only God can do that. Therefore many of those who may appear to be "tares" may eventually turn out to be "wheat," and many of those who appear to be "wheat" may eventually turn out to be "tares." So we need to be careful about thinking that we can tell who is wheat and who is a tare. We will no doubt be surprised sometimes when we get to heaven to find who's there and who's not.

That said, it is true that God has given us some ways of testing whether people are teaching truth or lies. We are to test them by the Bible. For instance, if someone teaches that the Bible is full of lies, that seems to me to be a dead give away of a false teacher.

Isaiah 8:20

To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

1 Cor. 14:37

If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord.

2 Tim. 3:14-17

But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it [15] and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. [16] All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, [17] that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.

John 17:17

Your [God's] word is truth.

Matthew 4:4

But Jesus answered, "It is written,

" 'Man shall not live by bread alone,

but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.' "

[ClubV12]

Gail, indeed, I too have had the most wonderful study, talk and reports from those in my area that have been following and studying the latest Daniel and Revelation concepts. Roosenbergs book is certainly a hot topic around my church.

...always a few bad apples around, we need now more than ever to press together and counsel with one another.

[Gibs]

I've heard all kinds of explanations of the "King of the North", some verses to consider. At present I am not committed on the subject.

Ps 48:1 ¶ A Song and Psalm for the sons of Korah. Great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised in the city of our God, in the mountain of his holiness.

Ps 48:2 Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth, is mount Zion, on the sides of the north, the city of the great King.

Ps 48:3 God is known in her palaces for a refuge.

Da 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Samie]

Daniel 11:31 speaks about the abomination of desolation (AoD).

The description of the king (Dan 11:36,37) who is directly linked with the setting up of the AoD is similar with Paul's description of the man of sin (2 Thes 2:3,4) and with that of the beast of Revelation (Rev 13:5-7)

Paul said the 2nd Coming cannot occur unless the man of sin is first revealed (2 Thes 2:1-3).

Christ emphatically told His disciples the setting up of the AoD will trigger a rapid succession of events culminating in the 2nd Coming (Mat 24:15-31; Mk 13:14-27).

The explaining angel rehearsed that the exploits of the king directly linked with the setting up of the AoD will be up to the time of the 2nd Coming (Dan 12:1 ,2).

Based on the foregoing, is it OK to conclude that the AoD referred to in Dan 11 is the same AoD referred to by Christ and that its setting up tells us the 2nd Coming is just around the bend?

[ClubV12]

The "daily" is not a point worth causing division over, but personally, I believe the daily and the abomination as occuring in 508 and 538 AD. In much the same way the Adventist pioneers understood it.

We tend to get lost in various descriptions, phrases and words to describe those events, but the pioneers were fundamentally correct and perfectly united on the concept.

[ClubV12]

...back to Daniel 11. Roosenbergs position, in a nutshell, is that Islamic forces will "push against" the NATO forces until NATO has had a belly full. Perhaps the Islamic forces (King of the South) will undertake some HUGE event that will trigger an all out war with a NATO alliance. Nuking the Vatican would do it, for instance. When the King of the North (NATO alliance) comes against them with guns blazing countries on the side lines will have to make rapid decisions. Ally or die. Some, like Egypt or Libya, will simply go along with the NATO alliance rather than risk destruction. Others, perhaps like Iran, will not, in which case they will feel the full wrath of a combined NATO military response. Something the world has never seen. Imagine the combined power of the NATO forces NOT held in check! It will be devastating, no country will be able to stand against them.

The NATO alliance will set up it's HQ in the Holy Land, Israel. It won't have anything to do with saving Jews, it's simply a strategic move. Israel will go along, or die. Every nation on earth will make a choice. There WILL be one world power in the end, Satan working behind the scene, using NATO like a puppet to do his will. To inflict the final decision on the entire world, acknowledge Sunday as a day of rest, or die. Every person on earth will brought to that test, worship the image to the beast, or choose the Sabbath, the image of God.

But this powerful alliance will not stand for long, Jesus is the ultimate power. The Kings of the North AND the South are ultimately doomed.

[Samie]

...back to Daniel 11. Roosenbergs position, in a nutshell, is that Islamic forces will "push against" the NATO forces until NATO has had a belly full. Perhaps the Islamic forces (King of the South) will undertake some HUGE event that will trigger an all out war with a NATO alliance. Nuking the Vatican would do it, for instance. When the King of the North (NATO alliance) comes against them with guns blazing countries on the side lines will have to make rapid decisions. Ally or die. Some, like Egypt or Libya, will simply go along with the NATO alliance rather than risk destruction. Others, perhaps like Iran, will not, in which case they will feel the full wrath of a combined NATO military response. Something the world has never seen. Imagine the combined power of the NATO forces NOT held in check! It will be devastating, no country will be able to stand against them.

The NATO alliance will set up it's HQ in the Holy Land, Israel. It won't have anything to do with saving Jews, it's simply a strategic move. Israel will go along, or die. Every nation on earth will make a choice. There WILL be one world power in the end, Satan working behind the scene, using NATO like a puppet to do his will. To inflict the final decision on the entire world, acknowledge Sunday as a day of rest, or die. Every person on earth will brought to that test, worship the image to the beast, or choose the Sabbath, the image of God.

But this powerful alliance will not stand for long, Jesus is the ultimate power. The Kings of the North AND the South are ultimately doomed.

So who is the king spoken of in Dan 11:36 directly linked with the setting up of the abomination of desolation? This king who says Paul is the man of sin, looks like such an important figure that unless his appearance in the fulfillment of the prophetic scene comes to pass, the 2nd Coming cannot occur. There is a disturbing silence as to who this king is as he is not directly referred to in the above-quoted post.

[miz3]

SDA Church .org prophetic interpretations of Daniel and Revelation are nothing but pure fantasy. Such fantasies were concocted and made sense in the 13th to mid 19th Centuries. However they make no sense now because the World has changed sooooo much since then and today we see a wider scope than those "pioneers" could ever have envisioned in their wildest dreams.

Fantasy, all is fantasy.

[Gail]

SDA Church .org prophetic interpretations of Daniel and Revelation are nothing but pure fantasy. Such fantasies were concocted and made sense in the 13th to mid 19th Centuries. However they make no sense now because the World has changed sooooo much since then and today we see a wider scope than those "pioneers" could ever have envisioned in their wildest dreams.

Fantasy, all is fantasy.

Miz3, go to the website and watch the clip and see what you think. He makes it EASY to understand and it falls together much nicer than I remember in Daniel studies.

[ClubV12]

Samie, the King in Daniel 11:36 is the "man behind the curtain", the puppet master of both the King of the North and the South, that man of sin who will soon be revealed, the Roman Catholic Power, headed by the Pope. And WHO controls THAT power? Satan himself. You see in the end, their really are actual Armies doing phyical battle, war. These military powers will be real organizations people see, understand and acknowledge, like NATO, Iran, Israel, Russia, etc.

But Daniel is looking deeper than just the physical traits and the literal battle that will be fought. He sweeps aside the curtain and reveals the true powers. Good and evil, God and Satan, working through man to accomplish their goals, the final conflict of the Great Controversy. Of course the Lord wins in the end, the North only APPEARS to win for a short time, the South will submit. In the end, they BOTH loose when only two groups are left. Those who "fear" God and those who worship the "beast" (the wicked and the righteous).

Verses 36 to 39 appear to be a summary of the events of the 1,260 rule of the Papacy during the dark ages, and the horror committed upon Christians during that time frame. THIS WILL BE REPEATED at the end of time, the last great battle. The SAME power behind the curtain. In the Dark Ages that power called upon very real "Armies", the Crusaders, to do her dirty work. In the end times that power will once again call upon an "Army" to do her dirty work, NATO.

[Samie]

Samie, the King in Daniel 11:36 is the "man behind the curtain", the puppet master of both the King of the North and the South, that man of sin who will soon be revealed, the Roman Catholic Power, headed by the Pope. And WHO controls THAT power? Satan himself. You see in the end, their really are actual Armies doing phyical battle, war. These military powers will be real organizations people see, understand and acknowledge, like NATO, Iran, Israel, Russia, etc.

[ClubV12]

Daniel is giving us history that will unfold in "mostly" chronological order. Verse 21 refers to Tiberius, the "flood" refers to the coming destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Verse 22 referrences the death of Christ (AD 31).

I say "mostly" unfold in chronological order because there are some problems if we hold fast to this concept as a "rule". Daniel 11:22 could be also be seen as a repeat when the King of the North sets up it's HQ in Jerusalem! Which will ALSO be destroyed again, for the last time.

As we move down chapter 11 we need to follow the order of history which has been fulfilled until we get to Daniel 11:40-45 or so, which remains to be fulfilled. I believe Sister White recognized this when she said the events of Daniel 11 are "almost" fulfilled. The end is near, the prophecy "almost" fully understood.

We find Alexander the Great in Daniel 11:3, for instance, and then on down through history until today, 40 to 45. And by the way, Daniel 11 should be extended into Daniel 12, the first four or five verses anyway. In Daniel 12 we see the story, the history is continuing to unfold. There is no break in the dialog that shows a shift away from the very last end time events.

[Dr. Rich]

Club, now go read Dan. 7:11-12 again and you will find that the 'Roman Power' you keep talking about was thrown in the lake of fire--gone for good so to speak. Yet the other three were allowed to live and you will see those three in Rev. 13's first beast. What you do NOT find is anything to do with the Romanish Beast--the Catholic Church. Might want to re-think this issue a lot more my friend.

[ClubV12]

Actually I have given it a lot of thought, I think your interpretation of Daniel is entirely incorrect Dr. Rich.