Daniel 11

[Dr. Rich]

Oh my my, ClubV12, guess what? I agree with you on this.

[Samie]

Based on the clear-cut statements of the Lord Himself relative to the setting up of the AoD as triggering the start of the great tribulation, any biblical exposition therefore that tends to detach the occurrence of the great tribulation from the setting up of the AoD would seem to be not in harmony with the Savior's own words. To put it another way, to preach the AoD had been set up is to believe the great tribulation had started. To believe the great tribulation is yet future is in itself a simple declaration the setting up of the AoD had not yet occurred.

[ClubV12]

What APPEARS to be "clear cut" statements of the Lord Himself are seen in a different light, a different interpretation by others. How do you account for that? Who are we to believe? Should I reject the Adventist pioneers interpretation, or the modern Adventist interpretation in favor of yours? Do you have a plain "thus saith the Lord" as to whose counsel I should accept? Of course many oppose the majority view simply because it IS a majority view, it is not pleasing to them to just be another sheep in the fold. They want to be special, have some interesting, new, more recent, startling interpretation. In my opinion, so that it will draw the attention to themselves....

The AoD did in fact trigger the start of a great tribulation. The 1290 (1260 from 538) years of persecution, which will start, soon enough, again. The next phase of persecution revisited will be considerably more terrible than anything the world has yet seen. The AoD, in 508, marked the rise of a power that will lead to utter devastation of this planet and the return of Christ.

[Samie]

The KEY therefore to the proper understanding of Dan 11:21-45 and on to the first two verses of Dan 12, is the unwavering belief in the words of the Savior Himself: that the setting up of the AoD triggers the start of the great tribulation.

Curiously, however, Daniel 12:1 describes an event - time of trouble - in a way similar to how the Savior described the great tribulation. This tells us the time of trouble = the great tribulation.

But the time of trouble as per Dan 12:1,2 will occur around the time when those who are written in the book will be delivered and the time when the dead are resurrected, telling us in no uncertain terms it is the time of the 2nd Coming!

Therefore, since the occurrence of the time of trouble = great tribulation is at the verge of the 2nd Coming, this leads us to the conclusion that the great tribulation is still future. And because the great tribulation is triggered by the setting up of the AoD, this setting up of the AoD is likewise future. And since it is in v31 where the AoD is mentioned as being set up, vv31-45 are likewise future.

So how about vv21-30?

[Samie]

Before we take up vv21-30, first we review what this AoD is, as per Scripture. I had already discussed elsewhere in this thread, in the case of the AoD, the Hebrew "shiqquts" (similar to the Aramaic "tselem") from whence the translation "abomination" is derived, always refers to graven images or idols that represent pagan deities (see 1 Kings 11:5-7; 2 Kings 23:13), or are made into objects of worship. This is why I had been consistent that the AoD is the image of the beast. But when "abomination" as used in Daniel relative to the AoD is applied to other than graven images or idols, that's someone else's interpretation, not the Bible's.

This further proves that the setting up of the AoD had NOT yet occurred, because there is no historical record from the time Christ spoke about the AoD to the present, where the people of God had been made desolate by an idol or graven image. Notice how the AoD = the image of the beast will desolate God's people shortly before Christ comes again:

KJV Rev 13:15

Quote:

And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Since when can a graven image actually speak and give out commands for execution? It looks like God let John take a peep into the future when robotics is but a mere child's play. Such will be the case in the days when the image of the king of Dan 11:21 is set up.

Who knows, but is it not possible this AoD could be a cyborg who exactly looks like the man of sin and whose hard drive houses terrabytes of data of all who joined his system in cyberspace? It is then an easy thing to target all who did not join his team.

Could it be that God made this present discussion an opportune time so that this truth about the AoD be brought into the open? It looks like we had been accustomed to the belief that the image of the beast is something else, such that when the real image of the beast is set up, we know not that His coming is just around the bend.

[Samie]

...

Therefore, since the occurrence of the time of trouble = great tribulation is at the verge of the 2nd Coming, this leads us to the conclusion that the great tribulation is still future. And because the great tribulation is triggered by the setting up of the AoD, this setting up of the AoD is likewise future. And since it is in v31 where the AoD is mentioned as being set up, vv31-45 are likewise future.

So how about vv21-30?

[Gordon1]

The question that comes to the fore...who will be the most reliable source...I have a simple answer to offer: the Lord Himself.

Well said Samie.

[ClubV12]

So, your "source" is the Lord Himself? Thats all you got? No other counselers? Teachers? Consultants? Brethren?

Then I know you are under delusion, because that is not how the Holy Spirit teaches us. There are many men who have made the claim you just made. David Koresh, Jim Jones and many other deluded persons on a mission from God.

Gordon, if you buy that, then stop consulting with the brethren or with Samie or anybody. All you need is the Lord to help you interpret scripture? Fine, withdraw from the Church, you don't need them, your good to go. Go home, wait for the inspiration, figure it out and then go forth and teach the world. Good luck with that....

Samie says,

"Thus we have established the king of v21 is the same king up till v45."

Uh, no, "we" have not established anything. James White, Uriah Smith, the Adventist Commentary, most Adventist Pastors, Tim Roosenberg, many many others disagree with your interpretation, as do I. The above are the brethren I have researched, along with several bible scholars in my local Church.

I wonder, Samie, who it is that you are counseling with, what sources are you using for your research? You don't even agree with the Adventist Commentary on your interpretation! It does not sound like you are working with any Adventist Brethren.

I don't put ANY faith, not in the slightest, in ONE mans interpretation of scripture! Never. God does not reveal truth to one man, but to His people. Even the Ethiopian was smart enough to know he needed instruction in the word.

Consider the King of verse 21, another way:

Who was "King", when Jesus was crucified in AD 31? Tiberius Julius Ceaser Agustus, who reigned until AD 37, and then he DIED. DEAD, finished, not alive in verse 45. Cannot be the King of the North, CANNOT.

Make the North King who ever you want, but the fact remains, it wasn't Tiberius, no way!!

[Gordon1]

Well said Samie, I appreciate that.

Time to publish your own church affiliation.

In good faith you might have declared it before before demanding of another.

But ante up to your own criteria.

[ClubV12]

_________________________

I'm a Seventh-day Adventist.

God bless the General Conference.

Is the tag line on EVERY post I make not clear enough?

[Gordon1]

So, your "source" is the Lord Himself?

Thats all you got?

All?

Worked for most of the prophets, Daniel, Jesus, Paul, John the Revelator, William Miller, Ellen White.

[Gibs]

Yes ClubV12, Yes the Lord Himself is the only teacher any one needs and one needs no other. We have His Word both by Him and the Apostles and Prophets.

In answer to your question, pasted below,

"So, your "source" is the Lord Himself? Thats all you got? No other counselers? Teachers? Consultants? Brethren?"

If you don't want to go wrong we do like the Bereans, go to the Word to see if the thing is truth. Many times it is not, sadly,

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

"Worked for most of the prophets, Daniel, Jesus, Paul, John the Revelator, William Miller, Ellen White."

Thats a lie Gibs, Gordon missed it, Samie doesn't get it, David Koresh believed it, Jim Jones was secure in it. Such a statement is filled with pride and human devisings.

When the early Church had an issue with doctrine that should apply to all the Churches, how was the dispute resolved? Did each man independantly retire to their library to consult with the Lord and interpret scripture themselves to come up with a solution? Is that how the 1,000 different Christian Churches arrive at their interpretation of scripture?

The early Church met, as a GROUP, studied the scriptures TOGETHER, they counseled one another, men from all over the world. NOT ONE MAN, but the counsel of the brethren.

So, what your saying, Gib's, Gordon, Samie, David Koresh, is that you guys don't need anybody! Just the Lord and your bible and the bible only? Miz3 would agree, it's what he's been preaching on this forum for a long time!

Now lets consider how thats working out for you guys. Gibs has one view, Samie another, Gordon isn't sure, Miz3 views are entirely opposed to the Adventist Church. When it comes to doctrine and interpretation you guys aren't doing any better than the Baptists, the Methodist or the Jehovah Witness! If we put all your interpretations together what do we get? BABYLON! Confusion, you don't even speak the same language!

PRIDE, "All I need is the Lord and the bible. With that and that alone, I can work out all scripture and interpret every verse correctly."

Jim Jones might have said that, just before he killed hundreds in the name of the Lord. David Koresh might have said that, just before he allowed women and children to burn to death.

William Miller, Ellen White counseled and learned from others. It wasn't Miller that came up with the 1844 date, he LEARNED that from a man named Mr. Snow. Miller himself never saw it in the scriptures. How did the Lord work that out for Miller? Through the counsel of the brethren!

[ClubV12]

Paul had that encounter with the Lord on the road, he was left mostly blind.

Now WHERE did the Lord send Paul to receive instruction? WHY would the Lord send him anywhere if ALL he needed was the bible, the bible only and the Lord to teach him?

The Lord sent Paul to the brethren, that he might learn from them. How foolish and prideful to think that we can stand alone and the Lord will teach us all things, just us, no one else is needed. Whew,,, what delusion is that!

[Gordon1]

SO CLUBV12, everyone claims to be a Seventh day Adventist, something you bewail.

But at least give the same evidence you required of Samie - where is your local Oregon church?

Ante up and show your love of equality & fair play.

[ClubV12]

GORDON DO YOU EVER CHECK YOUR PRIVATE MESSAGES?

Please do so now.

The only question I asked Samie was if he was a member of the Adventist Church, a baptized member is implied in that question. Are YOU, Gordon? You don't have to answer, I understand some are ashamed to say they are.

[Gordon1]

Now WHERE did the Lord send Paul to receive instruction? WHY would the Lord send him anywhere if ALL he needed was the bible, the bible only and the Lord to teach him?

The Lord sent Paul to the brethren, that he might learn from them. How foolish and prideful to think that we can stand alone and the Lord will teach us all things, just us, no one else is needed. Whew,,, what delusion is that!

This may be the 'opinion of the brethren, favorite commentary, quarterly.'

But consider the Scripture:

"IMMEDIATELY, I conferred not with flesh and blood.

"Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me;

but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter..

...behold, before God I lie not."

Paul's testimony from Galations 1:16-20

[Dr. Rich]

"Worked for most of the prophets, Daniel, Jesus, Paul, John the Revelator, William Miller, Ellen White."

Thats a lie Gibs, Gordon missed it, Samie doesn't get it, David Koresh believed it, Jim Jones was secure in it. Such a statement is filled with pride and human devisings.

When the early Church had an issue with doctrine that should apply to all the Churches, how was the dispute resolved? Did each man independantly retire to their library to consult with the Lord and interpret scripture themselves to come up with a solution? Is that how the 1,000 different Christian Churches arrive at their interpretation of scripture?

The early Church met, as a GROUP, studied the scriptures TOGETHER, they counseled one another, men from all over the world. NOT ONE MAN, but the counsel of the brethren.

So, what your saying, Gib's, Gordon, Samie, David Koresh, is that you guys don't need anybody! Just the Lord and your bible and the bible only? Miz3 would agree, it's what he's been preaching on this forum for a long time!

Now lets consider how thats working out for you guys. Gibs has one view, Samie another, Gordon isn't sure, Miz3 views are entirely opposed to the Adventist Church. When it comes to doctrine and interpretation you guys aren't doing any better than the Baptists, the Methodist or the Jehovah Witness! If we put all your interpretations together what do we get? BABYLON! Confusion, you don't even speak the same language!

PRIDE, "All I need is the Lord and the bible. With that and that alone, I can work out all scripture and interpret every verse correctly."

Jim Jones might have said that, just before he killed hundreds in the name of the Lord. David Koresh might have said that, just before he allowed women and children to burn to death.

William Miller, Ellen White counseled and learned from others. It wasn't Miller that came up with the 1844 date, he LEARNED that from a man named Mr. Snow. Miller himself never saw it in the scriptures. How did the Lord work that out for Miller? Through the counsel of the brethren!

This is a great issue but it should be on a new thread. After all, it is important to find out where the knowledge comes from in order to establish real truth.

Jesus said He was born of this earth to testify to the real truth, but then a serious problem occures--one must first be practicing the truth before they will understand what Jesus said and taught. So, how does one do that?

2Pet.1:20-21,"But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpertation for no prophecy was ecer made by ann act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God."

Verse 16. "For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty." 18. "We ourselves heard (This is My beloved Son which whom I am well pleased) this utterance made from heaven when we were with Him on the Holy Mountain."

It was Peter who asked Paul why he didn't preach the same gospel that the eyewitness disciples who were with Jesus for ONE year were teaching IF the vision/revelations Paul had was true. At this Paul told Peter that he never learned anything from any of the disciples but only trusted in the vision and voice he heard in his head. (Psydo Climintine Homily 19)

Therefore, what does this tell us? Where should we be getting our education from? Jesus told his disciples that the Holy Spirit will ONLY lead one into all truth, not 'tell him by a voice in his head'. How then does this 'leading' work?

[Dr. Rich]

Paul had that encounter with the Lord on the road, he was left mostly blind.

Now WHERE did the Lord send Paul to receive instruction? WHY would the Lord send him anywhere if ALL he needed was the bible, the bible only and the Lord to teach him?

The Lord sent Paul to the brethren, that he might learn from them. How foolish and prideful to think that we can stand alone and the Lord will teach us all things, just us, no one else is needed. Whew,,, what delusion is that!

Paul could NOT have been left blind in any way as he was healed allegedly by Jesus. Jesus does NOT do anything half way my friend! (Acts 9:18 says he REGAINED HIS SIGHT)

Paul was sent to Ananias, an alleged disciple. However, Paul testified that "For I would have you know brethern, that the gospel which was preached by me is NOT according to man, for I neither received it from man, no was I taught it, but I received it through a REVELATION of Jesus Christ." (Gal. 1:11-12) Now read Gal. 16-18--Paul was not taught anything by any of the pillars of THE WAY.

[ClubV12]

Dr.Rich says,

"This is a great issue but it should be on a new thread. After all, it is important to find out where the knowledge comes from in order to establish real truth."

I agree, and along with that the question of HOW does the Holy Spirit work should be included.

As to Pauls eyesite, my feeble attempts to express the situation failed miserably.

I said "mostly blind" to acknowledge that he regained his eye site later. But on the road, from the record, it looks like he was totally blind for a time. As to regaining his eyesite later, of course some biblical scholars theorize that Paul eyesite never fully recovered. I tend to agree with that myself.

Sister White notes that Paul was immediately placed in the care of his brethren in matters of LEARNING THE TRUTH. After his immediate encounter with "truth", as delivered to him by his brethren, he then spent three years in personal study. I do wonder, during those three years, who he also consulted with and learned from? Most of us mere mortals do not receive visions, dreams, divine revelation. We are dependant on our brethren to counsel with and that is demonstrated over and over in so many ways in the bible, in history, with the establishment of the Adventist Church.

Disagreements on points of doctrine? SURE! Strong men with strong opinion. Sometimes I think of Ellen White as herding cats when trying to keep the disagreements down to a dull roar.

[Dr. Rich]

Can anyone find another place where God forced someone totally evil to become convertied? I can't. That in itself is highly suspicious, especially when there were no witnesses who testified for Paul about this. I mean, wouldn't Jesus have known about Saul while Jesus was here on this earth--and invited him personally to become an apostle IF God needed him? Why didn't Jesus tell the other disciples about Saul? Don't you think Peter was caught off balance by this, especially when Peter said that Jesus chose him personally to go to the Gentiles? (Acts 15:7) To me, the whole story is highly suspicious at best.

Now, back to Daniel 11: It appears to me that the S and N kings are actually powers that play against one another at the end of time. We must remember that Satan used Muhomad to start a massive religion just as the religion called "christian" was created. And yes, these two mighty religious powers are now coming against each other--and yes, both of them are evil in God's sight. (See Dan. 11:27) So, what is 'it' that makes christianity evil?

[ClubV12]

Dr.Rich says,

"....the S and N kings are actually powers that play against one another at the end of time."

I think we can all agree on that basic idea. And many of us, certainly not all, see behind the curtain that the N and S King's are puppets to a greater power trying to bring the entire world under submission, that evil doer who lied to Eve in the garden.

What powers WILL be employed to represent the N and S King? Roosenberg makes a very strong case for it being Islam vs Christianity. What makes Christianity so evil? Christianity "so called", it's identity theft of the highest order. "Posing" as a pious, concerned "Christian" out to save the world, and most of those doing the "posing" don't even know they are. They THINK they ARE doing the Lords work! Imagine those in the military at that time, they are fighting for what? GOD and COUNTRY, saving the world while they lob artillery at each other. The Crusades 2.0

Conversion of a really bad man in the bible, hmmmm, David comes to mind! Now that guy was evil, a murderer, a fornicator, a rapist. I don't know, he makes Paul look rather tame in comparison. Samson spent MOST of his life chasing after women of the night, drinking, partying, it took a lot for him to see the error of his ways. Captive and blind, he finally figured it out.

[Lysimachus]

Can anyone find another place where God forced someone totally evil to become convertied? I can't. That in itself is highly suspicious, especially when there were no witnesses who testified for Paul about this. I mean, wouldn't Jesus have known about Saul while Jesus was here on this earth--and invited him personally to become an apostle IF God needed him? Why didn't Jesus tell the other disciples about Saul? Don't you think Peter was caught off balance by this, especially when Peter said that Jesus chose him personally to go to the Gentiles? (Acts 15:7) To me, the whole story is highly suspicious at best.

[Samie]

So, your "source" is the Lord Himself? Thats all you got? No other counselers? Teachers? Consultants? Brethren?

...

[Dr. Rich]

Marcos, what IF I am right, then what? Dan.11:31-35 prove that this happens at the end. It does NOT happen thru out the time period you believe. Look at verse 40. There was NO chapter break between 11 and 12 so now look at 12:1-3 and you will see this all happens at the very end of time on this earth. It is IN the future no matter what you mistakenly believe. Soon, it will proove itself to be true.

By the way, what is the difference between a 'false christian' and a non-false christian?

I do NOT want to be in line with those who are foolish virgins. I am fine just where I am, thank you!

And NO way Jose, will I ever stop doing what Jesus said to do in Matthew 28:20--YOU can't stop me my friend!

After all, is not the ONE good and faithful servant found in Matthew 24:45 independent? Isn't he the ONE in charge of the Master's house? Will not he 'get' everything the Master has right now IF he feeds his fellow servants?

And, the 144,000 make up just a small fraction of all Adventists right now, so it would be utterly stupid to line up with all of those foolish virgins!