Daniel 11

[Overaged]

X 1000

[Lysimachus]

Are you SDA Aliensanctuary?

Dispensationalist?

[Samie]

The Savior said: Matthew 24:15-21

Quote:

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

When the AoD is set up in the holy place, Christ sends out this alert:

Quote:

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Why the haste to escape? What's happening? Christ answers:

Quote:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

In crystal clear statement, understandable to even the uninitiated, the Savior says when the AoD is set up, the great tribulation starts. This is the KEY the Savior gave us to unlock the door leading to the proper understanding of the prophecies in Daniel that are related with the abomination of desolation!

[Lysimachus]

In a nutshell, the kings and circumstances surrounding the abomination of desolation in Daniel 11 and 12 are different from the words of Jesus--and the words of Jesus are in allusion to the single AoD of Daniel 9.

BUT, the allusion of the AoD in Daniel 9 was a "type" pointing forward to a much greater abomination of desolation on a global, spiritual apostate scale.

So it is singular, indeed.

But that singular is a "type" that foreshadows global events.

If the Great Tribulation in Matthew 24 was in allusion to a mingling of both the terrors of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D., AND the terrors of the Great Tribulation in the very last days---then consistency demands that the Abomination of Desolation that Christ is referring to also have a dual application.

It is singular.

But that singular is local typology pointing forward to an antitypical global reality--and this is elaborated upon in Daniel 11 and 12.

These truths shall remain unimpeachable to the very end.

Whether you like it or not, the truth is the truth.

Adventist eschatology is not something to be messed with.

No matter how much you dislike it.

It always wins in the end. :)

[Overaged]

Are you SDA Aliensanctuary?

Dispensationalist?

To take part in discussions here it is not required that a person has to reveal their church/religious affiliation, and that is way off topic from the OP

[Overaged]

In a nutshell, the kings and circumstances surrounding the abomination of desolation in Daniel 11 and 12 are different from the words of Jesus--and the words of Jesus are in allusion to the single AoD of Daniel 9.

BUT, the allusion of the AoD in Daniel 9 was a "type" pointing forward to a much greater abomination of desolation on a global, spiritual apostate scale.

So it is singular, indeed.

But that singular is a "type" that foreshadows global events.

If the Great Tribulation in Matthew 24 was in allusion to a mingling of both the terrors of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D., AND the terrors of the Great Tribulation in the very last days---then consistency demands that the Abomination of Desolation that Christ is referring to also have a dual application.

It is singular.

But that singular is local typology pointing forward to an antitypical global reality--and this is elaborated upon in Daniel 11 and 12.

These truths shall remain unimpeachable to the very end.

Whether you like it or not, the truth is the truth.

Adventist eschatology is not something to be messed with.

No matter how much you dislike it.

It always wins in the end.

But are you truly reflecting the official Adventist eschatology when you say such a thing re the "abomination?"

The Bible prophecy being discussed here is not dependant on this definition of "abomination." Can you show where in OFFICIAL Adventist eschatology this would be so? It must be noted that the Bible often uses the singular form of a word, as in a collective sense.

[ClubV12]

Alien covered his affiliation in an earlier statement. As I recall, he is indeed a Seventh-day Adventist. All though and unfortunately a large number of people around here take that name and obviously teach doctrine that is not supported by the Adventist Church. As a result, I don't even know what the definition of Seventh-day Adventist is anymore. For awhile I thought it meant, baptized member of the Church. But even THAT no longer applies because we HAVE baptized members on this forum that teach doctrine that is opposed by the Church! It's a mess figuring out whose on first.

While it is not a requirement to reveal what your faith is, it is certainly helpful, even needful, in some discussions, thats just reality. Without at least that basic knowledge you might as well be discussing it with a paper bag.

As a result, I just gave up on those who can't handle, denigrate or shun Ellen White and DEMAND, book, chapter and verse, the bible and the bible only in discussions. Often there is no ONE book, chapter, verse that CAN answer the question. You have to look at the big picture, and many can't handle that.

Well tough, if you don't like Ellen White as a commentator on the bible, throw out your concordance, commentairies, dictionary, internet access and go live in a cave. Just you and your bible, no counsel from anyone. I'll use and quote any source I deem reliable that can offer input to understanding what the bible has to say, ya'll that don't like will just have to deal with it.

Yes, my views will reflect the official doctrine and position of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, with no apologies. I don't care what the Baptists have come up for their explanation, I won't be using it.

[Samie]

...

In crystal clear statement, understandable to even the uninitiated, the Savior says when the AoD is set up, the great tribulation starts. This is the KEY the Savior gave us to unlock the door leading to the proper understanding of the prophecies in Daniel that are related with the abomination of desolation!

[Samie]

...

So what happens after the great tribulation, shortened in favor of the elect?

[Overaged]

As a result, I just gave up on those who can't handle, denigrate or shun Ellen White and DEMAND, book, chapter and verse, the bible and the bible only in discussions. Often there is no ONE book, chapter, verse that CAN answer the question. You have to look at the big picture, and many can't handle that.

[Overaged]

Who can shorten the days of occurrence of any event other than God Himself? So what happens after the great tribulation, shortened in favor of the elect?

See Rev 3:10, Mat 25, parable of the ten virgins

[Overaged]

In unmistakeable language, the Savior delineates the rapid succession of events starting from the Great Tribulation up to His 2nd Coming.

"The final movements will be rapid ones..." 9T 11

[Samie]

...

In unmistakeable language, the Savior delineates the rapid succession of events starting from the Great Tribulation up to His 2nd Coming. These words of the Savior will easily guide us in the proper understanding of the prophecies in Daniel which are directly related with the abomination of desolation.

We shall now go to the book of Daniel.

[Samie]

...

But what is the 1290 days time period? Is this period years or literal days?

[Lysimachus]

But are you truly reflecting the official Adventist eschatology when you say such a thing re the "abomination?"

The Bible prophecy being discussed here is not dependant on this definition of "abomination." Can you show where in OFFICIAL Adventist eschatology this would be so? It must be noted that the Bible often uses the singular form of a word, as in a collective sense.

Most certainly. Were there to be only one "Abomination of Desolation", either placed solely in the time of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D., or yet in the future, Satan knows that this would destroy the Investigative Judgment, and the stern finger that points Daniel 11 and 12 to the time periods of the Papacy.

With all due respect, Overaged, for you to show any sympathy toward Samie's views would be to confess that you are not a historicist, and it means you cannot Biblically support the view that the Antichrist/Beast/Little Horn power is realized in the Papacy. Push the AoD to 70 A.D., or exclusively to the future, without recognizing any fulfillment in the Papacy, is to become either a Preterist or a Futurist (Jesuit concoctions), and therefore, neglect the whole foundation of Adventism.

Samie and Aliensanctuary know this; hence their efforts to try and pin Adventism down on this point.

Can you not see these deeper issues Overaged? Many are not detecting what's really going on here.

Mark my words, continuous efforts will be made to try and prove all the AoD texts are addressing only one single event at one single time.

They know that if they can do this, they feel justified in throwing out the entire Adventist foundations out the window, including the 1260 year prophecy, and the 2300 year prophecy. There is an agenda behind all of this.

[ClubV12]

Overaged says,

"Ellen White herself, if she were alive, would never support such an idea; and neither do her writings."

Yup, there is THEE classic LIE from non other than a professed ADVENTIST no less! I can't believe I'm hearing that FROM an Adventist!

That particular LIE is always taken out of context and used to shut down and intimidate other Adventists to stop them from using Ellen White as a source of information.

What part of the Seventh-day Adventist doctrines and policies ARENT based on the bible and the bible only Overaged? WHICH doctrine? WHAT fundamental belief can't be found in the bible and the bible only Overaged?

I don't even know what the name Seventh-day Adventist means anymore. Sometimes they do more damage to the Church with their lies than those outside the Church.

Those who give up their faith in the Testimonies will eventually give up their faith in the Church and depart. Ellen White said that.

The OFFICIAL position of the Adventist Church is that they hold Ellen White as an inspired source, Gods special messenger to His people in these last days. The Church makes no apology for this and encourages the use of her writings. Many professed Adventists are embarrased to acknowledge that and to proud to use her insight.

My views reflect the OFFICIAL position of the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

Overaged says,

"The final movements will be rapid ones..." 9T 11

What SOURCE would that be from Overaged?

[Lysimachus]

Quote:

KJV Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Without a doubt, the time of trouble is the great tribulation described by the Lord Himself! And during this trouble, there is deliverance of all those found written in the book [of life?]; deliverance from the great tribulation, the occurrence of which will be shortened in favor of the elect. The events delineated by the Savior reenacted in this part of Daniel!

Adventists have never denied that the Time of Trouble is The Great Tribulation.

But more specifically, the "Time of Trouble" is the last "portion" of The Great Tribulation. The Great Tribulation is an all-encompassing theme that had a local typological application for the Christians in Jerusalem in 70 A.D. and the great persecutions that came upon them thereafter--and pointing forward to the terrors of the last days.

The Great Tribulation is divided into 3 parts.

This is evidenced when doing careful word studies of Revelation concerning the wounding of the beast and its restoration.

Concerning the great multitude:

"And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." (Revelation 7:14)

Certainly the great multitude cannot be only the last generation. But this great multitude encompasses believers throughout all the ages. If this is the case, this is proof positive that there had to be more than one "Great Tribulation". Yet Christ spoke of it as "singular" to his audience, to prevent them from the trauma. He worded in a way so that they would be concerned only about their situation, not the many generations that would come later.

Had Christ revealed those details to them, it would have been too crushing and overwhelming.

[ClubV12]

Samie says,

"That being the case, the 1290 day-period cannot be 1290 years because that is far beyond the lifetime of a man."

Seventh-day Adventists, William Miller and Ellen White believe the year for a day principle stands Samie. Teaching otherwise is in direct opposition to the OFFICIAL position of the Church and is considered serious error and false doctrine.

Just wanted to make that clear, Overaged.

Samie also says he is a Seventh-day Adventist, baptized member.

[Gordon1]

Marcos, I believe you've stated that EGW described or alluded to multiple abominations of desolation. Could you post or repost these EGW references? This thread is a fairly busy.

And do you have a source for the Arian religious liberty quotation you mentioned earlier? Is it available online?

[ClubV12]

Marcos says,

"...in a sense, there are 3 great tribulations. 1. The persecution of the saints and the destruction of Jerusalem, 2. The Papacy's persecution of the saints, and 3. The resuming of the Papacy's persecution of the saints."

[Overaged]

Overaged says,

"Ellen White herself, if she were alive, would never support such an idea; and neither do her writings."

Yup, there is THEE classic LIE from non other than a professed ADVENTIST no less! I can't believe I'm hearing that FROM an Adventist!

That particular LIE is always taken out of context and used to shut down and intimidate other Adventists to stop them from using Ellen White as a source of information.

What part of the Seventh-day Adventist doctrines and policies ARENT based on the bible and the bible only Overaged? WHICH doctrine? WHAT fundamental belief can't be found in the bible and the bible only Overaged?

I don't even know what the name Seventh-day Adventist means anymore. Sometimes they do more damage to the Church with their lies than those outside the Church.

Those who give up their faith in the Testimonies will eventually give up their faith in the Church and depart. Ellen White said that.

The OFFICIAL position of the Adventist Church is that they hold Ellen White as an inspired source, Gods special messenger to His people in these last days. The Church makes no apology for this and encourages the use of her writings. Many professed Adventists are embarrased to acknowledge that and to proud to use her insight.

My views reflect the OFFICIAL position of the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

Overaged says,

"The final movements will be rapid ones..." 9T 11

What SOURCE would that be from Overaged?

The official position of the Adventist Church is the Bible only. You do not in this thread, represent the church's official position. Rather, you perfectly represent 2 Nephi 29:6, (the Mormons) which is in agreement with the Roman teaching that you don't just need the Bible. The Mormons text says that anyone who says all you need is the Bible is a fool! Thats pretty much what you have said here. Rome loves the arguments you use here, and uses them to her own gain as well. In the quote that you tried to taunt me with when I used 9T 11, I gave this in response to what the poster already referenced from scripture to show that they do match up. Showing that does not mean I suddenly don't believe in "the Bible only."

Can you show us one doctrine out of Daniel 11 that cannot be sufficiently explained by the Bible only? I doubt that you can.

[Overaged]

A

While it is not a requirement to reveal what your faith is, it is certainly helpful, even needful, in some discussions, thats just reality. Without at least that basic knowledge you might as well be discussing it with a paper bag.

I guess you have not read the forum rules for a while. This is not "needful" here. We, as Adventists, should be happy to discuss our beliefs with anyone.

[Lysimachus]

Proof positive that there is more than one tribulation:

• Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

  12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.

  12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

Concerning the Time of Trouble, there are 3 important things to notice:

1. God's people are delivered.

2. Those in their graves shall resurrect.

3. The saints shall shine as the stars forever and ever (they are in heaven).

This is the very end. Nothing transpires concerning persecution after this. It is impossible, because the righteous resurrected. You can't persecute resurrected righteous people.

Notice that Michael "stands up" for His people at the commencement of the Time of Trouble. This is not the case with the Great Tribulation and persecution of the saints during the 42 months. Neither is there any resurrection of any saints afterward.

• Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty [and] two months.

  13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

  13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

  "I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them" (Daniel 7:21)

We see here that in these instances, the Horn "prevails" against the saints. This is absolutely impossible to happen if Michael is standing up for them and delivering them at the same time.

Also notice:

In Daniel 12:2, the resurrection is the very "next" occurrence" after the "Time of Trouble".

But in Revelation 13, the Lamb-Like Beast, another nation, rises up after the Beast's 42 months.

• Revelation

  13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

  13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who [is] like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

  13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

  13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

  13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

  13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

  13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.

  13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

  13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

  13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

  13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

  13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by [the means of] those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

  . . .

  13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

  13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

As we see, there is no resurrection that transpires after the 42 month persecution of the Beast in Revelation 13. Hence, the great 42 month tribulation cannot be the same as the Time of Trouble spoken of in Daniel 12.

Exegetically and contextually impossible. Not to mention that the Mark of the Beast is enforced AFTER the 42 month time period.

It might be more likely to think as such when one studies the book of Daniel alone, but not when one does a careful study comparing ALL the scriptures, from Genesis to Revelation.

This is the Adventist method.

The true Adventist approach of Bible study does not leave anything out.

The Futurist or Preterist approaches must play theological jugglery through selective subterfuge to try and confound those who hold to a historicist approach.

In light of this background, we thus see how it is logically, exegetically, and contextually impossible for the Abominations of Desolations mentioned in Daniel and Revelation to be referencing one single event at one time in history.

[Overaged]

With all due respect, Overaged, for you to show any sympathy toward Samie's views would be to confess that you are not a historicist, and it means you cannot Biblically support the view that the Antichrist/Beast/Little Horn power is realized in the Papacy.

Too many people in this thread claiming to represent the official Adventist position, and all saying different things. Something wrong with that picture. I do not sympathize with anyone in particular in this topic. I have questioned some things, but this does not = "sympathy" to some opposing view to your's.

Don't take the questions personally. Just get out your Bible and answer them.

[ClubV12]

"Those Seventh-day Adventists who take their stand under Satan’s banner will first give up their faith in the warnings and reproofs contained in the Testimonies of God’s Spirit."--3SM 84

EVERY doctrine of the Church can be shown and is based on the bible and the bible only. Daniel 11 is no exception. But that in no way means we abandon the insight and counsel of the Seventh-day Adventist PROPHET. Even if some worry about the Mormons, let the dead bury their dead and look to whom ever they choose for their counsel.

Overages says,

"This is not "needful" here."

Thats your opinion, I have a different one. There are several in this thread who have noted their faith as Seventh-day Adventists. No one twisted or insisted they do that.