Daniel 11

[Gordon1]

Son of God is the original definition of son.

This is the source code for our vocabulary and our begats.

God used language that would be clearly understood to describe His most important act - giving His Son to die for a fallen race.

[John317]

What does it mean when the Bible calls some people "the sons of the prophets" and others "the sons of the singers"?

Does it mean they were literally born from prophets or from singers?

Or does "son of" mean "of the order of"?

For instance, Jesus called Himself "son of man," or "Son of Adam." Yet of course he was not literally born of a man or of Adam. His name "Son of Man" meant that Jesus was of the order of man.

Son of God, then, simply refers to the fact that Jesus is God-- of the order of God. The Jews of Christ's day recognized this when He called Himself "Son of God." They said the title significed that He was making Himself equal with God. They were correct.

[Lysimachus]

Oh no, let's not turn this into a Godhead war! lol

[Dr. Rich]

"That the Sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose." Gen. 6:2

Can anyone show me who these "Sons of God" were/are?

[ClubV12]

Piece of cake Dr.Rich, "son's of God" implies "daugthers of God" as well. Jesus was the "Son of man" and also the "Son of God". A representative of ALL mankind and a representative of God, verily God Himself, which He was of course.

Sons and daughters of God, those who represent the people who love, obey and follow the Creator.

Sons and daughters of men, those who represent the people who do not love, obey and follow the Creator.

It's not complicated.....

The sons of God, good men who loved the Lord, looked upon the daughters of men, all decked out in their finest clothes, makeup and jewlry and were drawn to them. It's a powerful temptation men and women STILL wrestle with today. GOOD men and women, sons and daughters of God, drawn to their doom by the sons and daughters of men.

Consider this: Adam did not CHOOSE Eve, God BROUGHT Eve to Adam. It is not for us to choose a mate, to marry and to give in marriage whoever we choose. Sons and daughters of God should WAIT for the Lord to BRING us a mate. Through providence, through circumstances He will ordain, not from our own choosing. Lest we too be led to choose a mate from the sons and daughters of men.

[Dr. Rich]

Huh? Eve was created at the same time Adam was created. They just had not yet been seperated yet. It's a folly to believe that God will do the chosing as God has given each of us the power of choice. If one is righteous, then they will be looking for a righteous mate--it is as simple at that.

"Women are like buses, if you miss one, another will be around shortly."

Besides, "A woman without a man is like a frog without a scooter."

It is MY OWN opinion, that God was talking about the fallen angels as being the "Sons of God" while the daughters of men were the actual daughters of humans. Amalgumize them and you get the Nephelem--the 'gods' the suspposed myths were made of. Golith was one of these as were those found by the 12 spies. These were the 'gods' that the Creator was jellious about and said not to worship them or bow down to them as found in the ten commandments.

[Gordon1]

Besides, "A woman without a man is like a frog without a scooter.

She won't be run down?

[ClubV12]

Of course your not the only one that holds the bizzare view that somehow fallen angels, who cannot procreate by the way, bore off spring with humans. Read Genesis, again, slowly this time. Let it sink in how God brought Eve to Adam. Now consider that seemingly footnote of a verse in view of the marriage and giving in marraiage, the mix of Godly men and women with the ungodly (unequal yoke) and the immoral conditions we find in society AND in the Church today.

We, the human race, have fallen so far we can't even grasp the concept that being single, as Paul recommended, is OK. People shrink back in horror at the thought that might have to live alone. Having a spouse is like breathing, that can't imagine a life without one. Thats how far the human race has fallen, basically, most of us are idiots when it comes to grasping the concepts of courtship (we call it dating to cover the lie) and marriage. There is no "dating" in the bible, the Spirit of Prophecy is very clear on the concept of COURTSHIP, which might lead to marriage. And if that isn't the goal, there is no reason at all to even BE dating in the first place!

As it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be in the Church,,, uh,,, I mean the world. Wait, is there a difference when it comes to dating, courtship and marriage in or out of the Church? I'm not sure there is....

[Dr. Rich]

You did not answer who the Nephilim were (then) if you don't think the demons (that's who they were by the way) could not do a 'test tube' style implant into human females? (Gen. 6:4 and Num. 13:33, Deut. 1:28 and 9:2. and Josh. 11:21-22) Just who were these gods if not by a mix of humans and evil angels?

And just where did all of the so called myths of these gods come from anyway--if there was not any truth in them?

And please tell me how they made it thru the flood.

[Dr. Rich]

Oh, and why was God looking all over the world/earth for a suitable mate for Adam IF no other humans existed at that time? I mean, was God going to give Adam a hippo or a moose to him for a mate IF no other women existed? Think about that for a while!

[Overaged]

Oh, and why was God looking all over the world/earth for a suitable mate for Adam IF no other humans existed at that time? I mean, was God going to give Adam a hippo or a moose to him for a mate IF no other women existed? Think about that for a while!

"Doctor" Rich; I see you are really into science fiction.

[Overaged]

As it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be in the Church,,, uh,,, I mean the world. Wait, is there a difference when it comes to dating, courtship and marriage in or out of the Church? I'm not sure there is....

The seventh commandment is often ignored by those who pride themselves in "keeping" the other nine.

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

But are you truly reflecting the official Adventist eschatology when you say such a thing re the "abomination?"

The Bible prophecy being discussed here is not dependant on this definition of "abomination." Can you show where in OFFICIAL Adventist eschatology this would be so? It must be noted that the Bible often uses the singular form of a word, as in a collective sense.

Most certainly. Were there to be only one "Abomination of Desolation", either placed solely in the time of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D., or yet in the future, Satan knows that this would destroy the Investigative Judgment, and the stern finger that points Daniel 11 and 12 to the time periods of the Papacy.

With all due respect, Overaged, for you to show any sympathy toward Samie's views would be to confess that you are not a historicist, and it means you cannot Biblically support the view that the Antichrist/Beast/Little Horn power is realized in the Papacy. Push the AoD to 70 A.D., or exclusively to the future, without recognizing any fulfillment in the Papacy, is to become either a Preterist or a Futurist (Jesuit concoctions), and therefore, neglect the whole foundation of Adventism.

Samie and Aliensanctuary know this; hence their efforts to try and pin Adventism down on this point.

Can you not see these deeper issues Overaged? Many are not detecting what's really going on here.

Mark my words, continuous efforts will be made to try and prove all the AoD texts are addressing only one single event at one single time.

They know that if they can do this, they feel justified in throwing out the entire Adventist foundations out the window, including the 1260 year prophecy, and the 2300 year prophecy. There is an agenda behind all of this.

Why not instead prove your point that Christ means more than one "AoD" when He told His disciples "the AoD spoken of by Daniel the prophet"?

Christ said "THE" abomination of desolation, and therefore referring to ONE single AoD, otherwise, He would have said "the abominations of desolation". I just believe in what the Lord Himself said. The book of Daniel talks of only one AoD in harmony with what Christ said.

You believe Christ could be referring to more than one AoD's, so prove your contention by discussing it and showing biblical proof, NOT via what others said, since this is a discussion forum, and not just a referral forum.

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Lysimachus

Did you get the sources I gave above Gordon?

Hi Marcos, thanks for these references. It appears the Arians were the leading Christians of the day, granting their enemies religious liberty.

I believe Jones states the Heruli, Vandals & the Ostrogoths were the three horns plucked up by the roots (Daniel 7:8,20,24) - plucked up by Rome because they were anti-Trinitarian. (This might be found in the Two Republics)

In essence, Arians were the early Protestant reformers.

If you come across the EGW sources for three Abominations of Desolation this would be worth a read too.

I am just amazed at how others cannot believe Christ's words on "the abomination of desolation", referring to a singular abomination, and instead believe on 3 abominations of desolation, yet cannot show biblical proof of their contention that Christ was referring to more than ONE AoD.

This explains why they are forced to adopt the biblically impossible position the king of Dan 11:21 did not function up to v40 but was replaced by other kings. When asked what verse after v21 gives the hint on replacement, they keep quiet.

[Samie]

There are three "abominations of desolation":

1) When the Romans surrounded and destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD. It was a sign to God's people to flee the city.

2) The work of the pagan and papal phases of the little horn in casting down the truth of the gospel and Christ's work in the heavenly sanctuary.

3) When the national Sunday law is passed and the image to the beast is formed. This is a sign for God's people to leave the cities. {5 T 451}

Can the 3 guesses above qualify as fulfillment of the "abomination of desolation" (abomination, singular, from the Greek bdelugma - noun accusative neuter singular common), NOT plural, Christ said was spoken of by Daniel the prophet?

Sadly, NO.

As used in the OT, "abomination" (from Hebrew "shiqquts") refers to idols or images representing pagan deities (see 1 Kings 11:5-7; 2 Kings 23:13). The only "abomination" - idol or image - that will cause desolation to the end time people of God that fits biblical specification is the image of the beast of Rev 13.

When this image of the beast is literally set up, the great tribulation starts, and the 2nd Coming of the Lord is just around the bend.

We are nearing the time of its setting up. In fact, the system that will be used to identify the beast followers and those who are not is being tested now! How so?

The Hebrew letter 'vav' (read 'waw') represents the number 6 and corresponds to the English letter 'w'. The world wide web represented by "www" as the prefix of web sites in cyberspace, is actually a representation of the number of the beast. In the isle of Patmos, John was merely made to look at different panorama, and the panorama on the number of the beast shown to him could be the representation of the world wide web - "www" - which is Hebrew for "666".

[Lysimachus]

Originally Posted By: John317

There are three "abominations of desolation":

1) When the Romans surrounded and destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD. It was a sign to God's people to flee the city.

2) The work of the pagan and papal phases of the little horn in casting down the truth of the gospel and Christ's work in the heavenly sanctuary.

3) When the national Sunday law is passed and the image to the beast is formed. This is a sign for God's people to leave the cities. {5 T 451}

Can the 3 guesses above qualify as fulfillment of the "abomination of desolation" (abomination, singular, from the Greek bdelugma - noun accusative neuter singular common), NOT plural, Christ said was spoken of by Daniel the prophet?

Sadly, NO.

As used in the OT, "abomination" (from Hebrew "shiqquts") refers to idols or images representing pagan deities (see 1 Kings 11:5-7; 2 Kings 23:13). The only "abomination" - idol or image - that will cause desolation to the end time people of God that fits biblical specification is the image of the beast of Rev 13.

When this image of the beast is literally set up, the great tribulation starts, and the 2nd Coming of the Lord is just around the bend.

We are nearing the time of its setting up. In fact, the system that will be used to identify the beast followers and those who are not is being tested now! How so?

The Hebrew letter 'vav' (read 'waw') represents the number 6 and corresponds to the English letter 'w'. The world wide web represented by "www" as the prefix of web sites in cyberspace, is actually a representation of the number of the beast. In the isle of Patmos, John was merely made to look at different panorama, and the panorama on the number of the beast shown to him could be the representation of the world wide web - "www" - which is Hebrew for "666".

It does not have to be plural in order to realize that a singular repeats and enlarges.

It is impossible for all references to the "Abomination of Desolation" in scripture to be alluding to the same event, because all of them describe different happenings surrounding it.

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

...

As used in the OT, "abomination" (from Hebrew "shiqquts") refers to idols or images representing pagan deities (see 1 Kings 11:5-7; 2 Kings 23:13). The only "abomination" - idol or image - that will cause desolation to the end time people of God that fits biblical specification is the image of the beast of Rev 13.

When this image of the beast is literally set up, the great tribulation starts, and the 2nd Coming of the Lord is just around the bend.

We are nearing the time of its setting up. In fact, the system that will be used to identify the beast followers and those who are not is being tested now! How so?

The Hebrew letter 'vav' (read 'waw') represents the number 6 and corresponds to the English letter 'w'. The world wide web represented by "www" as the prefix of web sites in cyberspace, is actually a representation of the number of the beast. In the isle of Patmos, John was merely made to look at different panorama, and the panorama on the number of the beast shown to him could be the representation of the world wide web - "www" - which is Hebrew for "666".

It does not have to be plural in order to realize that a singular repeats and enlarges.

It is impossible for all references to the "Abomination of Desolation" in scripture to be alluding to the same event, because all of them describe different happenings surrounding it.

[Samie]

There are three "abominations of desolation":

1) When the Romans surrounded and destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD. It was a sign to God's people to flee the city.

2) The work of the pagan and papal phases of the little horn in casting down the truth of the gospel and Christ's work in the heavenly sanctuary.

3) When the national Sunday law is passed and the image to the beast is formed. This is a sign for God's people to leave the cities. {5 T 451}

The Savior had indicated the setting up of the AoD triggers the start of the great tribulation. The Bible emphatically makes clear, there is only one great tribulation, by saying that until its occurrence, there has been no similar occurrence of it in the past nor will a similar event occur ever again (see Dan 12:1; Matt 24:21; Mark 13:19).

If there are 3 abominations of desolation, then the great tribulation would have to occur three different times as well. This is directly against the words of the Savior Himself.

The fact that there can only be ONE great tribulation is proof enough there is likewise one and only ONE abomination of desolation, the setting up of which triggers its occurrence.

[Samie]

The fact that there can only be ONE great tribulation is proof enough there is likewise one and only ONE abomination of desolation, the setting up of which triggers its occurrence.

Based on the words of the Lord, it cannot be denied that there can only be one AoD, and therefore the following holds true:

1. All references to the AoD in the book of Daniel and elsewhere in Scriptures must necessarily point to this same and only one AoD.

2. All events related to the AoD and its subsequent setting up described in different parts of Daniel and elsewhere in Scriptures are all interrelated and compliment each other.

3. Since the setting up of the AoD ultimately leads to a rapid succession of events starting from the great tribulation up to the 2nd Coming, all events in item #2 above are to occur shortly before the 2nd Coming.

4. Since the period of occurrence of the great tribulation will be shortened for the elect's sake or no one will remain alive, all events in item #2 above must necessarily occur within the lifespan of a man.

5. Since Dan 11:31 refers to the AoD and Dan 12:1 depicts the great tribulation, all events in the verses in between must occur shortly before the 2nd Coming and within the lifespan of a man.

6. Since the "his" of v31 is the "king" of v36, and can be traced back as the "vile person" of v21, v21 to Dan 12:1 must occur shortly before the 2nd Coming and within the lifespan of a man.

7. Since Dan 11:31 speaks of the taking away of the 'daily' prior to the setting up of the AoD and Dan 12:11 speaks of this same taking away of the 'daily' and subsequent setting up of the AoD, the time period involved in Dan 12:11 must likewise occur shortly before the 2nd Coming and within the lifespan of a man.

A new door leading to a correct understanding of prophecy had just been opened by the key provided by the words of the Savior Himself.

[Lysimachus]

Samie,

You have a tendency to wait a while before bringing an issue back to the table that has already been addressed after people have forgotten what they have already said. I call this subterfuge. If you are interested in learning my Biblical reasons for why there cannot be only one Abomination of Desolation, you are more than free to go back and read my posts. Your repetition does not impress me. You've repeated yourself more than once, and if I were to respond to you again, I'd have to simply repost the very same things I've posted before.

Let me know when you're ready to deal with Post #527467.

[Samie]

The words of our Savior delineating there can only be one great tribulation and therefore only one AoD the setting up of which ultimately leads to its occurrence, bring us the inevitable conclusion that events related to the AoD must all find fulfillment shortly before the 2nd Coming and within the lifespan of a man. This is the key that opens up a new door leading to a correct understanding of the following prophetic time periods involved in AoD-related events:

1. The 1290 days of Dan 12:11. The period between the taking away of the 'daily' and the setting up of the AoD.

2. The 1335 days of Dan 12:12. There could be 45 days of waiting for a special event after the 1290 days.

3. The 3-1/2 times (Hebrew mo`ed) of Dan 12:7. The time period specified by the man in linen for the events portrayed in later portions of Dan 11 to 12:2 to transpire.

4. The 3-1/2 times (Aramaic `iddan) of Dan 7:25. The time period allotted for the little horn to wear out (Aramaic bela') the saints of the Most High.

5. The 2300 days of Dan 8:14. The time period for the vision relative to the taking away of the 'daily', the transgression of desolation, and other related events to be fulfilled.

6. The 70 weeks of Dan 9:24. The final week of this prophetic time frame tells of the taking away of the 'daily'.

7. The 42 months of Rev 13:5. The period allotted to the beast, whose image is the fulfillment of the AoD, to continue his blasphemous power.

For the above time-periods to transpire within the lifespan of a man, they must necessarily be literal days, literal months and literal times or years.

[Samie]

Samie,

You have a tendency to wait a while before bringing an issue back to the table that has already been addressed after people have forgotten what they have already said. I call this subterfuge. If you are interested in learning my Biblical reasons for why there cannot be only one Abomination of Desolation, you are more than free to go back and read my posts. Your repetition does not impress me. You've repeated yourself more than once, and if I were to respond to you again, I'd have to simply repost the very same things I've posted before.

Let me know when you're ready to deal with Post #527467.

Hi Lysimachus,

I surmise my posts would have told you I am ready.

And please, I have no intention of impressing you or anyone else. I am here to present truth as revealed in Scriptures.

Although there are other tribulations, Christ had clearly indicated there can only be one great tribulation triggered by the setting up of the AoD.

In Christ our Savior,

Samie

[Samie]

Proof positive that there is more than one tribulation:

[Samie]

The words of our Savior delineating there can only be one great tribulation and therefore only one AoD the setting up of which ultimately leads to its occurrence, bring us the inevitable conclusion that events related to the AoD must all find fulfillment shortly before the 2nd Coming and within the lifespan of a man. This is the key that opens up a new door leading to a correct understanding of the following prophetic time periods involved in AoD-related events:

1. The 1290 days of Dan 12:11. The period between the taking away of the 'daily' and the setting up of the AoD.

2. The 1335 days of Dan 12:12. There could be 45 days of waiting for a special event after the 1290 days.

3. The 3-1/2 times (Hebrew mo`ed) of Dan 12:7. The time period specified by the man in linen for the events portrayed in later portions of Dan 11 to 12:2 to transpire.

4. The 3-1/2 times (Aramaic `iddan) of Dan 7:25. The time period allotted for the little horn to wear out (Aramaic bela') the saints of the Most High.

5. The 2300 days of Dan 8:14. The time period for the vision relative to the taking away of the 'daily', the transgression of desolation, and other related events to be fulfilled.

6. The 70 weeks of Dan 9:24. The final week of this prophetic time frame tells of the taking away of the 'daily'.

7. The 42 months of Rev 13:5. The period allotted to the beast, whose image is the fulfillment of the AoD, to continue his blasphemous power.

For the above time-periods to transpire within the lifespan of a man, they must necessarily be literal days, literal months and literal times or years.

In view of the above scenario, the following diagram (a plus (+) sign marks and ends each of the time periods) illustrates the interrelationship that exists among them:

+------------------------------------- 2300 days ----------------------------------+

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .+----------------------1335 days ---------------------+

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .+------------ 1290 days -------------+--- 45 days --+

. . +--7 wks--+---62 weeks--+-1 wk-+ .. +------ 3-1/2 times (years) -----+

. . +---------------70 weeks-----------+ .. +----------- 42 months -----------+

Notice that the end points of 3 of these prophetic time periods - 2300 days, 1335 days, and the 42 months - more possible than not, coincides in one single event, namely, the 2nd Coming of our Lord. However, the starting points of these prophetic time periods cannot be pinpointed.

Biblical basis why the end of the 2300 days is, possibly, the 2nd Coming:

Daniel 8:13-14 13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? 14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

The question was "How long?" and the answer was "unto 2300 days", and at its culmination "then shall the sanctuary be cleansed".

"sanctuary" is from the Hebrew "qodesh" (Usage [from Strong's data: AV - holy 262, sanctuary 68, (holy, hallowed,...) things 52, most 44, holiness 30, dedicated 5, hallowed 3, consecrated 1, misc 3; 468

which could also be translated "holy". "be cleansed" is from the Hebrew 'tsadaq' which may also be translated "be vindicated" (see WTM, JDP - Groves-Wheeler Westminster Morphology and Lemma Database (release 4.4). Copyright © 2005).

Thus v14 may also be "Unto 2300 days then shall the holy be vindicated." Which event would vindicate the people of God other than the 2nd Coming itself?

[Samie]

... "be cleansed" is from the Hebrew 'tsadaq' which may also be translated "be vindicated" (see WTM, JDP - Groves-Wheeler Westminster Morphology and Lemma Database (release 4.4). Copyright © 2005).

Thus v14 may also be "Unto 2300 days then shall the holy be vindicated." Which event would vindicate the people of God other than the 2nd Coming itself?

Besides, identifying 'be cleansed' of Dan 8:14 (from Hebrew 'tsadaq') with the cleansing of the sanctuary in the day of atonement in Lev 16 is stretching the phrase too far. 'Cleansing' in Leviticus is from the Hebrew 'taher' which is concerned with physical cleansing as from leprosy (see Lev 14:52-57), bodily discharge or issue (Lev 15:1-33) or cleansing from sin (Lev 16:19, 30).