Daniel 11

[12tribes]

Can you prove what you are saying from the Bible?

[Lysimachus]

It therefore follows that the vile person is a king yet to reign in the future shortly before the 2nd Coming.

Just believe the Lord Jesus Christ's words, brother. You will then be in a position that cannot be biblically disproved.

Futurism. Anything to get the heat off the Papacy.

You read things into the Bible that exist only in your mind.

[Lysimachus]

Samie, your problem is that if you feel that you cannot jibe one verse with history, this automatically cancels out any past applications. Therefore, you irresponsibly and prematurely jump to the conclusion, "therefore, it must be in the future".

This is a serious lack of professional scholarship on your part, revealing that your interpretation of Daniel 11 is based on nothing more than mere whimsical emotion and insatiable bias.

Have you considered that perhaps there are other alternative interpretations to Daniel 11:20 and 21? Not all scholars are agreed, but it would be prudent on your part, if you were a true student of the Word, to take in all the possible historical applications. And even if you can't make those work, don't stop there. Keep searching, keep digging.

Taking such verses and throwing them into the future is the famous "copout" researcher. It is the characteristic of the lazy scholar who wants to make a good show of himself. It promotes sloppy research, and leaves the past unchecked.

Consider pages 13-27:

http://www.islamandchristianity.org/~islama8/study-guides/Gane%201-20.pdf

[12tribes]

12tribes, I highlighted below your statement that collapsed your position:

Originally Posted By: 12tribes

...

Then verse 21 says that someone shall stand up in his estate or place a vile person and in Luke 3:1 has this:-

Luke 3:1

(1) Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judaea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of Ituraea and of the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias the tetrarch of Abilene,

Tiberius Caesar is the vile person who stood up in the place of Caesar Augustus.

...

Scriptures specify the coming into power of this vile person as follows:

Quote:

Daniel 11:21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.

History records the following:

1. Tiberius was given the honour of the kingdom by Augustus himself.

2. Tiberius obtained the kingdom in accordance with the legal traditions of Rome.

Scriptures specify the vile person's coming into power as follows:

1. The vile person was not given the honour of the kingodm.

2. The vile person obtained the kingdom by flattery.

Therefore, the vile person cannot possibly be Tiberius, and your whole position collapses.

Scriptures indicate the vile person is a king who will be responsible for the taking away of the 'daily' and the subsequent setting up of the abomination of desolation (v31). The Savior had indicated the setting up of the abomination of desolation will trigger a rapid succession of events culminating in the 2nd Coming (see Matt 24:25-31).

It therefore follows that the vile person is a king yet to reign in the future shortly before the 2nd Coming.

Just believe the Lord Jesus Christ's words, brother. You will then be in a position that cannot be biblically disproved.

I have been reading your posts on this thread and they are based on your opinion of what you think the Bible says. This post for instance is based on your opinion of what you think it is and you are passing it off as truth.

I suggest you have a good hard look at you own posts and you will see what I am saying. Can you prove your theories on Daniel 11 by using only the Bible and offering no comments?

[Samie]

...

I have been reading your posts on this thread and they are based on your opinion of what you think the Bible says. This post for instance is based on your opinion of what you think it is and you are passing it off as truth.

I suggest you have a good hard look at you own posts and you will see what I am saying. Can you prove your theories on Daniel 11 by using only the Bible and offering no comments?

Can you show HOW or WHY any or all of what you call my comments are not based on the Bible?

You see, I showed biblical proof why your position that the vile person of v21 is Tiberius, is not according to Scriptures. Can you do the same with what you call my comments?

Can you please, brother? Thank you.

[12tribes]

If you are going to put those verses of Daniel 11 in the future then you also have to put the time prophecies of Dan 12 in the future along with prophecies in Revelation.

In the verses in Daniel 11 that you put in the future speak about the prince of the covenant who is Christ, to put that in the future you will also have to put the final week of Daniel 9 in the future and change the 2300 year prophecy of chapter 8 and get rid of 1844.

[Lysimachus]

Yup, Samie's ultimate conclusions have a devistating domino effect, and he knows it. It would have a ripple effect messing up all of Historicism, but since he feels that since we can't make heads or tails out of those couple texts as applying to the past, then they must go with it. But to throw those texts into the future is like throwing is like pushing one pin over the edge of a cliff, which is chained to the next pin, and it keeps pulling the chain down down down until it gets heavier and heavier until the whole chain falls over the edge of the cliff.

Adventist-Historicism does not claim to have been able to thoroughly crack every verse. It claims that more research is needed, and we will continue to study these things until all the pieces fit. Samie, on the other hand, feels that if he can't make a couple pieces fit, we must do away with the whole puzzle. Not realizing that just maybe he just hasn't found those missing pieces yet, and they may yet be discovered if he would only exercise a little patience and keep looking.

[Samie]

If you are going to put those verses of Daniel 11 in the future then you also have to put the time prophecies of Dan 12 in the future along with prophecies in Revelation.

[Samie]

Yup, Samie's ultimate conclusions have a devistating domino effect, and he knows it. It would have a ripple effect messing up all of Historicism, but since he feels that since we can't make heads or tails out of those couple texts as applying to the past, then they must go with it. But to throw those texts into the future is like throwing is like pushing one pin over the edge of a cliff, which is chained to the next pin, and it keeps pulling the chain down down down until it gets heavier and heavier until the whole chain falls over the edge of the cliff.

Adventist-Historicism does not claim to have been able to thoroughly crack every verse. It claims that more research is needed, and we will continue to study these things until all the pieces fit. Samie, on the other hand, feels that if he can't make a couple pieces fit, we must do away with the whole puzzle. Not realizing that just maybe he just hasn't found those missing pieces yet, and they may yet be discovered if he would only exercise a little patience and keep looking.

Hi forum mates;

It's quite a while this thread had remained silent. I wonder whether Bro. Lysimachus has by now discovered some pieces referred to in the quote above.

But no, Samie is not concerned with messing up Adventist-Historicism. He is merely concerned with sharing Truth as he understands it from Scriptures. And yes, Samie could be wrong. But why not show him where and why? It appears it is Samie who, in this thread, has shown inaccuracies in the traditional SDA understanding of end-time prophecies in Daniel.

[Geoarrge]

I have a few thoughts on the original topic since it's already been bumped.

First, if the war described in Daniel 11:40-45 is indeed between the West and an Islamic axis, and you overlay that on the traditional Adventist end-time scenario, doesn't that suggest that the religious persecution culminating in the Sunday Law will initially be targeted against Muslims?

Second, 11:42-43 seems to state that Egypt will be plundered. Would this be a significant moral turning point for the King of the North, in the sense that everything before then (in the current third conflict) could be somewhat justified?

[Samie]

Just wondering whether there is yet anybody who, using Scriptures, can DISPROVE that the vile-person king of Dan 11:21 continued his exploits up to v45. Someone tried a few pages back in this thread, but failed.

[Geoarrge]

There's not enough there to produce a conclusive logical proof to the highest demanding standards. The whole chapter spans from the fall of Alexander to the end of the world. One or more time breaks are obviously necessary to make sense of it.

The clearest places to place the breaks seem to be denoted by the language in v29 and v40: "At the appointed time..." and "At the time of the end..." Lumping those periods together and imagining a break to be placed at v20 doesn't seem to be the most likely correct reading, especially if there is an interpretation of v29-39 that seems to fit a period that has already passed, such as the Crusades. But I can only say "doesn't seem to be the most likely", not "DISPROVE."

Furthermore, it makes sense working backwards. If you suppose that the end times are in the near future, then the war described in v40-45 does seem like something that would most likely take place between the West (militarily represented by NATO) and an Islamic axis. If this is the correct interpretation it would make sense for the previous encounter in v29-39 to describe the Crusades, being a clue to the nature of the final confrontation.

[Samie]

There's not enough there to produce a conclusive logical proof to the highest demanding standards. The whole chapter spans from the fall of Alexander to the end of the world. One or more time breaks are obviously necessary to make sense of it.

The clearest places to place the breaks seem to be denoted by the language in v29 and v40: "At the appointed time..." and "At the time of the end..."

...

Daniel 11:

28 Then shall he return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the holy covenant; and he shall do exploits, and return to his own land.

29 At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter.

Why do you think the "he" of v28 is NOT the "he" of v29?

[Geoarrge]

Daniel 11:

28 Then shall he return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the holy covenant; and he shall do exploits, and return to his own land.

29 At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter.

Why do you think the "he" of v28 is NOT the "he" of v29?

Just because this is one of the most literal prophecies in the Bible, it does not necessarily follow that it is absolutely literal.

"At the time appointed" indicates some form of time break, and "but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter" appears to be an alert that each of the next two parts should not be read as a direct continuation of the previous part. If the time break is more than a human lifetime, then "he" of v29 must be a successor of "he" of v28.

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

Daniel 11:

28 Then shall he return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the holy covenant; and he shall do exploits, and return to his own land.

29 At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter.

Why do you think the "he" of v28 is NOT the "he" of v29?

...

If the time break is more than a human lifetime, then "he" of v29 must be a successor of "he" of v28.

So, if less, then the "he" of v28 is also the "he" of v29. And Scriptures indicate that the break, if indeed there's any, could NOT be more than a human lifetime.

The setting up of the abomination of desolation will trigger the great tribulation which God will shorten or NO FLESH can survive. And immediately after that tribulation, unusual celestial phenomena occurs, which will be capped by the 2nd Coming.

Do you think the great tribulation has already taken place?

[Geoarrge]

So, if less, then the "he" of v28 is also the "he" of v29. And Scriptures indicate that the break, if indeed there's any, could NOT be more than a human lifetime.

The setting up of the abomination of desolation will trigger the great tribulation which God will shorten or NO FLESH can survive. And immediately after that tribulation, unusual celestial phenomena occurs, which will be capped by the 2nd Coming.

Do you think the great tribulation has already taken place?

Why, then, is "placing the abomination of desolation" part of the "at the appointed time" segment in v29-39 rather than "at the time of the end?"

Why does the King of the North need to "enter into the Glorious Land" in v41 if, as you suggest, he has been there the whole time since v31, placing the abomination of desolation?

Matthew 24:15-16 - “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand) "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains."

Mark 13:14 -“So when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not” (let the reader understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains."

The phrases I emphasized seem to allow for the interpretation that the important sign is a specific action by the 'abomination of desolation' and not necessarily its first appearance in the Holy Land.

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

So, if less, then the "he" of v28 is also the "he" of v29. And Scriptures indicate that the break, if indeed there's any, could NOT be more than a human lifetime.

The setting up of the abomination of desolation will trigger the great tribulation which God will shorten or NO FLESH can survive. And immediately after that tribulation, unusual celestial phenomena occurs, which will be capped by the 2nd Coming.

Do you think the great tribulation has already taken place?

Why, then, is "placing the abomination of desolation" part of the "at the appointed time" segment in v29-39 rather than "at the time of the end?"

Why does the King of the North need to "enter into the Glorious Land" in v41 if, as you suggest, he has been there the whole time since v31, placing the abomination of desolation?

Matthew 24:15-16 - “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand) "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains."

Mark 13:14 -“So when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not” (let the reader understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains."

The phrases I emphasized seem to allow for the interpretation that the important sign is a specific action by the 'abomination of desolation' and not necessarily its first appearance in the Holy Land.

The King of the North, after setting up the abomination of desolation in the holy place, did not stay in the holy place the whole time. Verse 40 tells us he entered other countries. And from these countries, he will enter the glorious land again, from whence his exploits continued up till verse 45.

Chapter 12 immediately follows telling us that it is at that time that Michael shall stand up for his people and the great tribulation = time of trouble, will occur.

Again, do you think the great tribulation has occurred?

And, any thoughts on what the "abomination of desolation" is?

In Christ,

Samie

[Gus Foster]

One thing to note -- when Pike and Weishaupt predicted the coming three world wars the stated that the last war would be between Christianity and Islam. Some modern scholars that I give much credence state that has been supplanted by secularism. I am in a wait and see mode.

[LifeHiscost]

One thing to note -- when Pike and Weishaupt predicted the coming three world wars the stated that the last war would be between Christianity and Islam. Some modern scholars that I give much credence state that has been supplanted by secularism. I am in a wait and see mode.

That conclusion doesn't actually square with the Word.

http://www.amazon.com/Authority-Evangeli...ader_0879738510

"And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."

Revelation 14:11-12 KJV

Jesus/God saves!

[Samie]

Let's just wait until the abomination of desolation = the image of the beast is set up in the holy place. The great tribulation will then be triggered but will be shortened, and immediately after the great tribulation, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will come in the clouds of heaven. see Mt 24:14-31.

[Aliensanctuary]

Quote:

Dan 2:44, 45

During the reigns of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed or conquered. It will crush all these kingdoms into nothingness, and it will stand forever.

That is the meaning of the rock cut from the mountain, though not by human hands, that crushed to pieces the statue of iron, bronze, clay, silver, and gold. The great God was showing the king what will happen in the future.

Here's an important clue concerning the time frame of Daniel's prophecies: During the reigns of those kings.

Either the time for setting up of the Eternal Kingdom requires a rather lengthy period of time, from Babylon's beginning to the fall of (Rome)*, 1792 BC to 476 AD or not yet, if you believe the Roman Empire still exists, or, these four kingdoms will exist simultaneously, or nearly so, in the future, post resurrection period of just a few years duration

* Rome, I believe, is not the 4th Beast of Dan 7. This chapter describes a power that destroys, or nearly destroys, the Earth. Perhaps this is an extraterrestrial power, or, a ruthless religion such as Islam. Islam would have no qualms over destroying the great cities of the world, but neither would a certain extraterrestrial power concern itself if the human race is eradicated.

In Dan 11 the kings of the North and South appear to be engaged in conflicts arising during the Last Days time period. This, of course, would be future, not past.

[Samie]

In Dan 11 the kings of the North and South appear to be engaged in conflicts arising during the Last Days time period. This, of course, would be future, not past.

You are correct.  This is evidenced by the opening statements of the next chapter, Dan 12:

NKJ Daniel 12:1 "At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book.  2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

There seems to be no doubt that the Second Coming is described in the above verses.  ​"At that time . . .", refers to the time described in the closing verses of the preceding chapter, hence, the occurrence of the events described in the closing verses of Dan 11 will be shortly before the SC.

The time of trouble = the great tribulation will be triggered by the setting up of the abomination of desolation (see Matt 24:15-21), therefore, the setting up of the abomination of desolation = the image of the beast will occur shortly before the Second Coming.

[Samie]

Maybe Dave Watcman and others new to the forum would be interested, so I bubbled up this thread.

[Dave Watchman]

On 4/13/2014 at 5:16 PM, Samie said:

The King of the North, after setting up the abomination of desolation in the holy place, did not stay in the holy place the whole time. Verse 40 tells us he entered other countries. And from these countries, he will enter the glorious land again, from whence his exploits continued up till verse 45.

I think that The King of the North is Lucifer and that, working from the abyss, has caused us to set up the abomination of desolation. 

Quote

Chapter 12 immediately follows telling us that it is at that time that Michael shall stand up for his people and the great tribulation = time of trouble, will occur.

 

Again, do you think the great tribulation has occurred?

I think the appointed time of the end has began and we are in the spot after the AofD but just before "for then there will be great tribulation".

Quote

And, any thoughts on what the "abomination of desolation" is?

"abomination of desolation" = "the days of Lot"

[Geoarrge]

The words of Jesus seem to suggest that the Abomination of Desolation is something that will be recognizable apart from its being set up "in the holy place/standing where it ought not."  That is, something which will have been revealed through a prior instance.  And if there are multiple instances of the AoD, it is not necessary to assume that all references to it must be relegated to the future.

If Dan 11.29-39 refers mainly to the establishment of the First Crusader Kingdom in Jerusalem in 1099, then the AoD would most likely refer to the Knights Templar claiming the Al-Aqsa Mosque as their headquarters, after the massacre of non-Christians that year.  That is, the AoD is a nominally Christian institution which engages in religious persecution, while seeking the Temple Mount as a base of operations, in order to claim supreme spiritual legitimacy, on behalf of Rome. 

11.45 "And [the King of the North] shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain. Yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him."

I would suggest that this is the correct point to line up with Christ's prophecy. The "tabernacles of his palace" being planted "in the glorious holy mountain" is also the AoD, and this time projecting influence over the whole Middle East, would represent a much more grandiose union of spiritual and military power.