Daniel 11

[Gordon1]

Marcos, not sure if you were replying to me with the latest post on tribulation. I was asking about EGW's statements concerning multiple Abominations of Desolation.

[Lysimachus]

Originally Posted By: Lysimachus

With all due respect, Overaged, for you to show any sympathy toward Samie's views would be to confess that you are not a historicist, and it means you cannot Biblically support the view that the Antichrist/Beast/Little Horn power is realized in the Papacy.

Too many people in this thread claiming to represent the official Adventist position, and all saying different things. Something wrong with that picture. I do not sympathize with anyone in particular in this topic. I have questioned some things, but this does not = "sympathy" to some opposing view to your's.

Don't take the questions personally. Just get out your Bible and answer them.

Fair enough. Keep in mind though that I concur with you that we lack an "official" defined view on the Abomination of Desolation.

One thing all Adventists are agreed on, however. That is that all the texts that allude to the "Abomination of Desolation" cannot all be referring to one single event in one point of time in history.

If we do, that creates an inextricable and incomprehensible amount of theological problems, throwing almost everything off in our entire Adventist foundations.

I'm certain that Samie is aware of this.

[Lysimachus]

Marcos, not sure if you were replying to me with the latest post on tribulation. I was asking about EGW's statements concerning multiple Abominations of Desolation.

No worries bro. My long post was not in response to you. I started it long before I saw your post.

I'll study your question again, and get back to you asap. God bless. :)

[John317]

I give a statement from Paul's own written word, and you give me a "we don't know". So are you saying that Paul was less then truthful in his statement in Galations 1?

Do you know who the disciples were that Paul spent time with in Damascus, according to Acts 9: 19? Do you know what Paul and the disciples talked about during that time?

All I am saying is that we don't know these things. The Bible doesn't tell us. We don't even know if the "disciples" referred to here included Peter or any of the 12. But I do believe it's safe to assume that Paul talked with the disciples (whoever they were) about Jesus and His teachings. This doesn't contradict anything Paul said in Galatians 1. Notice that Paul does say, too, that he spent 15 days with Peter and James in Jerusalem, but this was at least three years after his conversion. Paul doesn't claim he didn't learn anything from any of the disciples or apostles, nor does he say he didn't discuss the gospel with them. Rather, Paul says that he "did not immediately confer with flesh and blood" (Gal. 1: 16).

Paul says in Galatians 2 that about 14 years after his conversion (or perhaps 14 years after meeting with Peter and James in Jerusalem), he went up to Jerusalem again "because of revelation, and communicated to them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to those who were of reputation, lest by any means I might run, or had run, in vain." In verse 6, Paul adds that "those who seemed to be something added nothing to me."

Paul, then, is denying that he got the gospel he preached from men. He claims that he learned the gospel from Jesus Himself by revelation. In Galatians 2: 7-10, Paul says that James, Peter, and John, approved of the message that he was preaching to the Gentiles.

[ClubV12]

The OFFICIAL position of the Seventh-day Adventist Church on the year day principle stands, it is a pillar of Adventist doctrine.

Not all porfessed ADVENTISTS on this thread agree with that OFFICIAL position of the Church.

Just a point of clairification on that issue.

[Gordon1]

Overaged says,

"Ellen White herself, if she were alive, would never support such an idea; and neither do her writings."

Yup, there is THEE classic LIE from non other than a professed ADVENTIST no less! I can't believe I'm hearing that FROM an Adventist!

That particular LIE is always taken out of context and used to shut down and intimidate other Adventists to stop them from using Ellen White as a source of information.

What part of the Seventh-day Adventist doctrines and policies ARENT based on the bible and the bible only Overaged? WHICH doctrine? WHAT fundamental belief can't be found in the bible and the bible only Overaged?

I don't even know what the name Seventh-day Adventist means anymore. Sometimes they do more damage to the Church with their lies than those outside the Church.

Those who give up their faith in the Testimonies will eventually give up their faith in the Church and depart. Ellen White said that.

The OFFICIAL position of the Adventist Church is that they hold Ellen White as an inspired source, Gods special messenger to His people in these last days. The Church makes no apology for this and encourages the use of her writings. Many professed Adventists are embarrased to acknowledge that and to proud to use her insight.

My views reflect the OFFICIAL position of the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

Overaged says,

"The final movements will be rapid ones..." 9T 11

What SOURCE would that be from Overaged?

Please stop railing at the members.

[ClubV12]

A response to the RAILING that was directed toward ME.

Please stop railing against me Gordon1.

[Overaged]

Fair enough. Keep in mind though that I concur with you that we lack an "official" defined view on the Abomination of Desolation.

One thing all Adventists are agreed on, however. That is that all the texts that allude to the "Abomination of Desolation" cannot all be referring to one single event in one point of time in history.

If we do, that creates an inextricable and incomprehensible amount of theological problems, throwing almost everything off in our entire Adventist foundations.

I'm certain that Samie is aware of this.

I think it's important to give all participants here, due consideration. I have not bothered to try and see who is Adventist and who is not. In studying these things from Daniel 11, or any other prophecy; it is important to address ideas, and not people...and I am not saying you don't do this, just explaining why I question the Adventists on this thread a bit.

Regarding the "AoD" what do you see as the culmination thereof? What will we see happening around us when the AoD of scripture reaches it's final fulfillment?

I will say that one of the things which disappoints me most about prophetic studies such as this thread is how Jesus is not mentioned. He is the "H.I.S. - T.O.R.Y." behind and above and in the midst of all prophecy. I would venture to say that if the focus here could change to show the official Adventist views on Jesus in Daniel 11, then we would have a much more positive thread to share with others. So, tell us about Jesus, in daniel 11, and in the midst of the AoD brother...

[Overaged]

A response to the RAILING that was directed toward ME.

Please stop railing against me Gordon1.

Arghhh...you guys need to relax. Lets just discuss Jesus in Daniel 11 instead of each other.

[Overaged]

Please stop railing at the members.

hey brother; I know you mean well; but no need to defend me in any way. Lets just start to defend Jesus in Daniel 11. What can you tell us about this?

[Gordon1]

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

A

While it is not a requirement to reveal what your faith is, it is certainly helpful, even needful, in some discussions, thats just reality. Without at least that basic knowledge you might as well be discussing it with a paper bag.

I guess you have not read the forum rules for a while. This is not "needful" here. We, as Adventists, should be happy to discuss our beliefs with anyone.

Above all doctrines Adventists should champion religious liberty as this is God's example for us. Christ did not need an Inquisition and neither should His people. That's reality. Those who insist on applying pressure should put their own houses in order.

[ClubV12]

Every single poster on this thread profess' to be a Seventh-day Adventist. Willingly, no arm twisting, no pressure. Even miz3 has made that claim!

As such I believe it is IMPERATIVE to distinguish between Adventist THEORY and actual doctrine and official belief, Gordon.

[Dr. Rich]

Originally Posted By: wayfinder

I give a statement from Paul's own written word, and you give me a "we don't know". So are you saying that Paul was less then truthful in his statement in Galations 1?

Do you know who the disciples were that Paul spent time with in Damascus, according to Acts 9: 19? Do you know what Paul and the disciples talked about during that time?

All I am saying is that we don't know these things. The Bible doesn't tell us. We don't even know if the "disciples" referred to here included Peter or any of the 12. But I do believe it's safe to assume that Paul talked with the disciples (whoever they were) about Jesus and His teachings. This doesn't contradict anything Paul said in Galatians 1. Notice that Paul does say, too, that he spent 15 days with Peter and James in Jerusalem, but this was at least three years after his conversion. Paul doesn't claim he didn't learn anything from any of the disciples or apostles, nor does he say he didn't discuss the gospel with them. Rather, Paul says that he "did not immediately confer with flesh and blood" (Gal. 1: 16).

Paul says in Galatians 2 that about 14 years after his conversion (or perhaps 14 years after meeting with Peter and James in Jerusalem), he went up to Jerusalem again "because of revelation, and communicated to them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to those who were of reputation, lest by any means I might run, or had run, in vain." In verse 6, Paul adds that "those who seemed to be something added nothing to me."

Paul, then, is denying that he got the gospel he preached from men. He claims that he learned the gospel from Jesus Himself by revelation. In Galatians 2: 7-10, Paul says that James, Peter, and John, approved of the message that he was preaching to the Gentiles.

Rev. 21:8 and 22:15 Proves that is NOT safe to 'assume' anything John317. If we do not know something, then that is ok, but to say something is fact when you only assume it is, and it is not-is testifying falsley.

Paul said he was not lying in Gal. about NOT being taught anything by men. He made it a point to let them know HIS gospel came from a voice in his head-the same as what happend to EGW. He did NOT do his 'due dilligence' to test that spirit by going to those eyewitnesses to verify and validate that the voice he was hearing was the true Holy Spirit. His "assumption" has now deceived thousands of millions into believing they are saved by grace. That is the "Many" Jesus warned us about in Matt. 24:4.

[Lysimachus]

Gordon1,

I have been looking for that one post I provided a while back with a compilation of all of EGW's statements concerning the dual-applications of Matthew 24 concerning the great tribulation and the abomination of desolation.

I'm glad you brought this up as I would really like to save that post. It was a couple months back I believe. If you can help me find it, that would greatly appreciated. My apologies I have not been able to provide it sooner. I'm screaming for it too now, lol.

[John317]

Here are Ellen White's statements about the Abomination of Desolation:

Jesus declared to the listening disciples the judgments that were to fall upon apostate Israel, and especially the retributive vengeance that would come upon them for their rejection and crucifixion of the Messiah. Unmistakable signs would precede the awful climax. The dreaded hour would come suddenly and swiftly. And the Saviour warned his followers: “When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whoso readeth, let him understand), then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains.” [Matthew 24:15, 16; Luke 21:20.] When the idolatrous standards of the Romans should be set up in the holy ground, which extended some furlongs outside the city walls, then the followers of Christ were to find safety in flight. When the warning sign should be seen, those who would escape must make no delay. Throughout the land of Judea, as well as in Jerusalem itself, the signal for flight must be immediately obeyed. {GC 26 (1888 edition)}

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains. Matthew 24:15, 16. {Mar 180.1}

The time is not far distant, when, like the early disciples, we shall be forced to seek a refuge in desolate and solitary places. As the siege of Jerusalem by the Roman armies was the signal for flight to the Judean Christians, so the assumption of power on the part of our nation [the United States] in the decree enforcing the papal sabbath will be a warning to us. It will then be time to leave the large cities, preparatory to leaving the smaller ones for retired homes in secluded places among the mountains. {Mar 180.2}

"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whoso readeth, let him understand); then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains; let him which is on the housetop not come down to take anything out of his house; neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes." This warning was given to be heeded forty years after, at the destruction of Jerusalem. The Christians obeyed, and not one of them perished in the destruction of the city. {ST, February 20, 1901 par. 11}

"But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day." Christ, who made the Sabbath, did not abolish it, nailing it to His cross. The fourth commandment was not rendered null and void by His death. It was to be held sacred forty years after His death; even as long as the heavens and the earth remain, so long will it hold its claim upon the human family. {ST, February 20, 1901 par. 12}

"Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, He is in the desert; go not forth; behold, He is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." Here, again, the warning concerning Jerusalem is blended with the warning of the second advent. {ST, February 20, 1901 par. 13}

[Dr. Rich]

The "abomination of desolation" is when Satan, as the 2nd beast of Rev. 13, gives life to the image of the beast in Rev. 13:15. This only happens during the last 5 new moons (months) of this earths history and has NOT happened yet--therefore it is impossible to have the 7th trumpet already blown as EGW mistakenly believed and now thousands of ignorant Adventists also mistakenly believe.

[Lysimachus]

Marcos, I believe you've stated that EGW described or alluded to multiple abominations of desolation. Could you post or repost these EGW references? This thread is a fairly busy.

And do you have a source for the Arian religious liberty quotation you mentioned earlier? Is it available online?

I must go and eat at the moment, but I will get back to you on this as soon as possible. The Arian religious liberty quotation is found in Heidi Heik's "A.D. 508 Source Book" and "A.D. 538 Source Book", but I'll get the exact quotes for you as soon as I can.

[Gordon1]

Hi Overaged, it's not a personal defence. Rather a statement of principal for the respect of all members. A biblical principal superceding Daniel 11. An appeal for decency & public order.

It's doubtful I know more of Daniel 11 than anyone else, so won't parrot another source just to add filler.

[Gordon1]

Gordon1,

I have been looking for that one post I provided a while back with a compilation of all of EGW's statements concerning the dual-applications of Matthew 24 concerning the great tribulation and the abomination of desolation.

I'm glad you brought this up as I would really like to save that post. It was a couple months back I believe. If you can help me find it, that would greatly appreciated. My apologies I have not been able to provide it sooner. I'm screaming for it too now, lol.

Marcos, Don't think I ever read that post, but only (quite recently I believe) that 'the Bible & EGW made this repeated application quite clear' - words to that effect. Running through all these threads is a little tough on the eyeballs...maybe back to the EGW database..

[John317]

This is from the chapter "The Transgression and Abomination of Desolation" in the book, The Consecrated Way, by A.T. Jones

Jones presents strong evidence showing that the Abomination of Desolation includes the work of both the pagan and papal phases of the little horn power in casting down the truth to the ground.

Source:

http://www.whitehorsemedia.com/docs/THE_CONSECRATED_WAY.pdf

Begins on page 46

...it is just as certain that there is a priesthood, a priestly ministry, and a sanctuary, in

this dispensation as that there was in the old; yes, even more truly, for though there was a

sanctuary, a priesthood, and a ministry in the old dispensation, it was all only a figure for

the time then present--a figure of this which now is the true and which is in heaven.

This true priesthood, ministry, and sanctuary of Christ in heaven is too plain in the New

Testament to be by any possibility denied. Yet, in the face of all this, it is a thing that is

hardly ever thought of; it is a thing almost unknown and even hardly believed in the

Christian world today.

Why is this and how could it ever be? There is a cause. The Scripture tells it and facts

demonstrate it.

In the book of Daniel, seventh chapter, there was seen by the prophet in vision the four

winds of heaven striving upon the great sea, "and four great beasts came up from the sea,

diverse one from another. The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings;" which

symbolized the world-kingdom of Babylon. The second was like a bear, which raised

itself up on one side, and had three ribs in the mouth of it; which symbolized the united

world-kingdom of Media and Persia. The third was like a leopard, which had four heads

and four wings of a fowl which symbolized the world-dominion of Alexander the Great

and Grecia. The fourth beast was "dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it

had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the

feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns."

This great beast symbolized the world-empire of Rome, diverse from all that were before

it; because it was not originally a kingdom or monarchy, but a republic. The ten horns

symbolized the ten kingdoms that were planted in the territory of Western Rome when

that empire was annihilated.

Then says the prophet: "I considered the horns [he ten horns], and, behold, there came up

among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked

up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth

speaking great things." The prophet beheld and considered this little horn clear through

until "the judgment was set, and the books were opened." And when this judgment was

set and the books were opened, he says: "I beheld then [at that time] because of the voice

of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his

body destroyed, and given to the burning flame."

Note the remarkable change in expression in this latter statement. The prophet beheld the

little horn from the time of its rise clear through to the time when "the judgment was set,

and the books were opened." At that time he beheld the little horn; and just now,

particularly "because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake." And he

continued to behold that same thing--that same little horn--until the end and till its

destruction. But when its destruction comes, the word that describes it is not that the little

horn was broken or destroyed but that the "beast was slain and his body destroyed and

given to the burning flame."

This shows that the little horn is but another phase of the original fourth, or dreadful and

terrible, beast that the little horn is but the continuation of the dreadful and terrible beast,

in its very disposition, spirit and aims, only under a variant form. And as the fourth world

power, the dreadful and terrible beast in its original form was Rome; so the little horn in

its workings is but the continuation of Rome--of the spirit and working of Rome, under

this form.

The explanation of this, given in the same chapter, confirms that which has been stated.

For of this little horn it is said that it is to be "diverse from the first;" that he "shall speak

great words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and

think to change times and laws" of the Most High. It is also said that the "same horn

made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; until the Ancient of days came, and

judgment was given to the saints of the Most High; and the time came that the saints

possessed the kingdom." All these things are true, and this is the description of latter

Rome throughout.

And all this is confirmed by latter Rome herself. For Leo the Great was pope A.D. 440 to

A.D. 461, in the very time when the former Rome was in its very last days, when it was

falling rapidly to ruin. And Leo the Great declared in a sermon that the former Rome was

but the promise of the latter Rome; that the glories of the former were to be reproduced in

Catholic Rome; that Romulus and Remus were but the forerunners of Peter and Paul; that

the successors of Romulus therefore were the precursors of the successors of Peter; and

that, as the former Rome had ruled the world, so the latter Rome, by the see of the holy

blessed Peter as head of the world, would dominate the earth. This conception of Leo's

was never lost from the Papacy. And when, only fifteen years afterward, the Roman

Empire had, as such, perished, and only the Papacy survived the ruin and firmly held

place and power in Rome, this conception of Leo's was only the more strongly and with

the more certitude held and asserted.

That conception was also intentionally and systematically developed. The Scriptures

were industriously studied and ingeniously perverted to maintain it. By a perverse

application of the Levitical system of the Old Testament, the authority and eternity of the

Roman priesthood had already been established. "The bishops now [the latter part of the

second century] wished to be thought to correspond with the high priest of the Jews; the

presbyters were said to come in place of the priests; and the deacons were made parallel

with the Levites.

"In like manner the comparison of the Christian oblations with the Jewish victims and

sacrifices produced many unnecessary rites, and by decrees corrupted the very doctrine of

the holy Supper; which was converted, sooner, in fact, than one would think, into a

sacrifice."--Mosheims Ecclesiastical History, Cent. II, part II, chap. II, par. 4; and chap.

IV, par. 4.

And now, by perverse deductions "from the New Testament, the authority and eternity of

Rome herself was established."

Taking the ground that she is the only true continuation of original Rome, upon that the

Papacy took the ground that wherever the New Testament cites or refers to the authority

of original Rome, she is now meant, because she is the only true continuation of original

Rome. Accordingly, where the New Testament enjoins submission to "the powers that

be," or obedience to "governors," it means the Papacy, because the only power and the

only governors that then were, were Roman, and the papal power was the true

continuation of the Roman.

"Every passage was seized on where submission to the powers that be is enjoined, every

instance cited where obedience had actually been rendered to the imperial officials;

special emphasis being laid on the sanction which Christ Himself had given to Roman

dominion by pacifying the world through Augustus, by being born at the time of the

taxing, by paying tribute to Caesar, by saying to Pilate, 'Thou couldst have no power at

all against Me except it were given thee from above'"--Bryce. And since Christ had

recognized the authority of Pilate, who was but the representative of Rome, who should

dare to disregard the authority of the Papacy, the true continuation of that authority, to

which even the Lord from heaven had submitted.

And it was only the logical culmination of this assumption when Pope Boniface VIII

presented himself in the sight of the multitude, clothed in a cuirass, with a helmet on his

head and a sword in his hand held aloft, and proclaimed: "There is no other Caesar, nor

king, nor emperor than I, the Sovereign Pontiff and Successor of the Apostles;" and,

when further he declared, ex cathedra: "We therefore assert, define, and pronounce that it

is necessary to salvation to believe that every human being is subject to the Pontiff of

Rome."

This is proof enough that the little horn of the seventh chapter of Daniel is Papal Rome

and that it is in spirit and purpose intentionally the continuation of original Rome.

Now, in the eighth chapter of Daniel, this subject is taken up again. First, there is seen by

the prophet in vision a ram with two horns which were high, but one higher than the

other, corresponding to the bear lifting itself up on one side higher than the other. This is

declared plainly by the angel to mean "the kings of Media and Persia." Next the prophet

saw "an he goat" coming from the west on the face of the whole earth, touching not the

ground, and he had a notable horn between his eyes. He overthrew the ram, brake his two

horns, cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him, and there was none that

could deliver the ram out of his hand. This is declared by the angel to mean "the king of

Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king." The he-goat waxed

very great, and when he was strong, the notable horn was broken and in place of it there

came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven. This is declared by the angel

to mean that "four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his [Alexander's]

power."

Out of one of these divisions of the empire of Alexander, the prophet next saw that there

"came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the

east, and toward the pleasant land." The directions named show that this power rose and

waxed exceeding great from the west. This is explained by the angel to mean, "in the

latter time of their kingdom [the four divisions of Grecia], when the transgressors are

come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall

stand up." "And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the

host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them." "And his power shall be

mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper,

and practice, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. And through his policy

also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart,

and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes ["He

magnified himself even to the prince of the host." Verse 11]; but he shall be broken

without hand."

Continued

[John317]

A.T. Jones on the Transgression and Abomination of Desolation

Continued

These specifications show that the little horn of the eighth chapter of Daniel represents

Rome from the time of its rise, at the destruction of the Grecian Empire, to the end of the

world, when it is "broken without hand" by that stone "cut out of the mountain without

hands," which then breaks in pieces and consumes all earthly kingdoms. Dan. 2:34, 35,

44, 45.

We have seen that in the seventh chapter of Daniel the little horn, though as such

representing only the latter phase of Rome, yet does really represent Rome in both its

phases--Rome from beginning to end, because when the time comes that the "little horn"

is to be broken and destroyed, it is indeed "the beast" that is "slain, and his body

destroyed, and given to the burning flame." Thus the thought with which the story of the

little horn closes in Daniel 7 is continued in Daniel 8 with reference to the same power. In

Daniel 8 the expression "little horn" covers the whole of Rome in both its phases, just as

is shown in the closing expressions concerning the "little horn" in Daniel 7; as is shown

also by the expressions "the abomination of desolation" and "the transgression of

desolation," being applied to Rome in both its phases (Dan. 9:26, 27; Matt. 24:15; Dan.

11:31; 12:11; 8:11, 13); and as is confirmed by the teaching and history of latter Rome

itself. It is all one, except only that all that is stated of the former Rome is true and

intensified in the latter Rome.

And now let us consider further the scripture expressions in Daniel 8 concerning this little

horn power. In verses 11 and 25, of this little horn power it is said: "He shall magnify

himself in his heart." "He magnified himself even to [or against] the prince of the host;"

and "he shall also stand up against [or reign in opposition to] the Prince of princes." This

is explained in 2 Thessalonians, second chapter, where the apostle, in correcting wrong

impressions which the Thessalonians had received concerning the immediate coming of

the Lord, says: "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come,

except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of

perdition; who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is

worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is

God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?" 2 Thess.

2:3-5.

Plainly this scripture describes the same power that is represented by the little horn in

Daniel 8. But there are other considerations which more fully show it. He says that when

he was at Thessalonica with the brethren he had told them these very things which now

he writes. In Acts 17:1-3, is the record concerning Paul when he was yet with the

Thessalonians, as follows: "Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and

Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews: and Paul, as

his manner was, went in unto them, and three Sabbath days reasoned with them out of the

Scriptures." And in this reasoning with them out of the Scriptures, he told them about this

falling away which should come, in which would be the revealing of the man of sin, the

mystery of iniquity, the son of perdition, who would oppose himself to God and would

exalt himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, even putting himself in the

place of God and passing himself off for God.

In reasoning with the people out of the Scriptures, where in the Scriptures did Paul find

the revelation from which he could tell to the Thessalonians all this? It was in this eighth

chapter of Daniel where the apostle found it, and from this it was that he told it to them

while he was there. For in the eighth chapter of Daniel are the very expressions which he

uses in 2 Thessalonians, of which he says, "Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with

you, I told you these things?" This fixes the time to be after the apostles' days, when

Rome magnified itself "even to the Prince of the host" and "against the Prince of

princes;" and connects it directly with the falling away, or apostasy, which developed the

Papacy, or Rome, in its latter and ultimate phase.

Now let us read verses 11 and 12 of Daniel 8 and it will be plainly seen that here is

exactly the place where Paul found the scripture from which he taught the Thessalonians

concerning the "man of sin" and the "mystery of iniquity:" "Yea, he magnified himself

even to the Prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the

place of his sanctuary was cast down. And an host was given him against the daily

sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it

practiced and prospered."

This plainly points out that which took away the priesthood, the ministry, and the

sanctuary of God and of Christianity.

Let us read it again. "Yea, he [the little horn--the man of sin] magnified himself even to

the Prince of the host ["against the Prince of princes"--Christ], and by him [the man of

sin] the daily sacrifice [the continual service, the ministry, and the priesthood of Christ]

was taken away, and the place of His sanctuary [the sanctuary of the prince of the host, of

the Prince of princes--Christ] was cast down. And an host was given him [the man of sin]

against the daily sacrifice [against the continual service, of the ministry of Christ, the

Prince of the host] by reason of transgression cast down the truth to the ground; and it

practiced, and prospered."

It was "by reason of transgression," that is, by reason of sin, that this power gained "the

host" that was used to cast down the truth to the ground, to shut away from the church

and the world Christ's priesthood, His ministry, and His sanctuary; and to cast it all down

to the ground and tread it underfoot. It was by reason of transgression that this was

accomplished. Transgression is sin, and this is the consideration and the revelation upon

which the apostle in 2 Thessalonians defines this power as the "man of sin" and the

"mystery of iniquity."

In Daniel 8:11-13; 11:31; and 12:11, it will be noticed that the word "sacrifice" is in

every case supplied. And it is wholly supplied, for in its place in the original there is no

word at all. In the original the only word that stands in this place is the word tamid, that is

here translated "daily." And in these places the expression "daily" does not refer to the

daily sacrifice any more than it refers to the whole daily ministry or continual service of

the sanctuary, of which the sacrifice was only a part. The word tamid in itself signifies

"continuous or continual," "constant," "stable," "sure," "constantly," "evermore." Only

such words as these express the thought of the original word, which, in the text under

consideration, is translated "daily." In Numbers 28 and 29 alone, the word is used

seventeen times, referring to the continual service in the sanctuary.

And it is this continual service of Christ, the true High Priest, "who continueth ever," and

"who is consecrated forevermore" in "an unchangeable priesthood"--it is this continual

service of our great High Priest, which the man of sin, the Papacy, has taken away. It is

the sanctuary and the true tabernacle in which this true High Priest exercises His

continual ministry that has been cast down by "the transgression of desolation." It is this

ministry and this sanctuary that the "man of sin" has taken away from the church and shut

away from the world and has cast down to the ground and stamped upon and in place of

which it has set up itself "the abomination that maketh desolate." What the former Rome

did physically to the visible or earthly sanctuary, which was "the figure of the true" (Dan.

9:26, 27; Matt. 24:15), that the latter Rome has done spiritually to the invisible or

heavenly sanctuary that is in itself the true." Dan. 11:31; 12:11; 8:11, 13.

In the footnote quotation on page 91 [see below] it is shown that in the apostasy, the

bishops, presbyters, deacons, and the eucharist were made to succeed the high priest,

priests, Levites and sacrifices of the Levitical system. Now by every evidence of the

Scriptures, it is certain that, in the order of God it was Christ and His ministry and

sanctuary in heaven and this alone, that in truth was the object of the Levitical system and

that is truly the Christian succession to that system. Therefore when in and by the

apostasy the system of bishops as high priests, presbyters as priests, deacons as Levites,

and the Supper as a sacrifice was insinuated as the Christian succession to the Levitical

system, this of itself was nothing else than to put this false system of the apostasy in the

place of the true, completely to shut out the true, and finally, to cast it down to the ground

and stamp upon it.

And this is how it is that this great Christian truth of the true priesthood, ministry, and

sanctuary of Christ is not known to the Christian world today. The "man of sin" has taken

it away and cast it down to the ground and stamped upon it. The "mystery of iniquity" has

hid this great truth from the church and the world during all these ages in which the man

of sin has held place in the world and has passed itself off as God and its iniquitous host

as the church of God.

And yet, even the "man of sin," the "mystery of iniquity," itself bears witness to the

necessity of such a service in the church in behalf of sins. For though the "man of sin,"

the "mystery of iniquity," has taken away the true priesthood, ministry, and sanctuary of

Christ and has cast these down to the ground to be stamped upon and has completely hid

them from the eyes of the Christian world, yet she did not utterly throw away the idea.

No, she threw away the true and cast down the true to the ground but, retaining the idea

in the place of the true, she built up in her own realm an utterly false structure.

In the place of Christ, the true and divine High Priest of God's own appointment in

heaven, she has substituted a human, sinful, and sinning priesthood on earth. In the place

of the continual, heavenly ministry of Christ in His true priesthood upon His true

sacrifice, she has substituted only an interval ministry of a human, earthly, sinful, and

sinning priesthood in the once-a-day "daily sacrifice of the mass." And in the place of the

sanctuary and the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched and not man, she has

substituted her own meeting-places of wood and stone, to which she applies the term

"sanctuary." Thus, instead of the one continual High Priest, the one continual ministry,

and the one continual sanctuary in heaven, which God has ordained and which is the only

true, she has devised out of her own heart and substituted for the only true, many high

priests, many ministries, many sacrifices, and many sanctuaries, on earth, which in every

possible relation are only human and utterly false.

And it can never take away sin. No earthly priesthood, no earthly ministry, no earthly

sacrifice or service in any earthly sanctuary can ever take away sin. In the book of

Hebrews we have seen that even the priesthood, the ministry, the sacrifice, and the

service in the earthly sanctuary--the very service which the Lord Himself ordained on

earth--never took away sin. The inspired record is that they never did take away sin, and

that they never could take away sin.

It is only the priesthood and the ministry of Christ that can ever take away sin. And this is

a priesthood and a ministry in heaven and of a sanctuary that is in heaven. For when

Christ was on earth he was not a priest and if He had remained on earth until this hour,

He would not yet be a priest, as it stands written, "If he were on earth, He should not be a

priest." Heb. 8:4. Thus, by plain word and abundant illustration, God has demonstrated

that no earthly priesthood, sacrifice, or ministry can ever take away sin.

If any such could take away sin, then why could not that which God Himself ordained on

earth take away sin? If any such could take away sin, then why change the priesthood and

the ministry from earth to heaven? Therefore, by the plain word of the Lord, it is plain

that the priesthood, the ministry, the sacrifice, and the sanctuary which the Papacy has set

up and operates on earth can never take away sin, but, instead, only perpetuates sin, is a

fraud, an imposture, and the very "transgression" and "abomination of desolation" is [sic.]

the most holy place.

And that this conclusion and statement as to what the papal system really is is not

extravagant nor far-fetched, is confirmed by the words of Cardinal Baronius, the standard

annalist of the papacy. Writing of the tenth century, he says: "In this century the

abomination of desolation was seen in the temple of the Lord; and in the See of St. Peter,

reverenced by angels, were placed the most wicked of men; not pontiffs, but monsters."

And the council of Rheims in 991 declared the papacy to be "the man of sin, the mystery

of iniquity."

Concluded

[Overaged]

Maybe everyone missed my question in all the other hub-bub here? I was wondering if anyone is going to start talking about JESUS in Daniel chapter 11. We give the devil so much credit, all we talk about is him and his filthy powers, there seems to be no room at the Inn for our Savior, and that is so strange to me because he is the center of all prophecy..."H.I.S. - S.T.O.R.Y."

[Lysimachus]

At John317,

Excellent stuff!! :

[John317]

While Daniel 11 reveals the tactics of Satan in attacking Christ and God's people throughout history, it also shows us that the more Satan attacks, the greater the victories attained by Christ and His church.

As Ellen White wrote, "Persectuion served only to extend the truth, and the fanatcism which Satan endeavored to unite with it resulted in making more clear the contrast between the work of Satan and the work of God." (GC 196)

[John317]

There are three "abominations of desolation":

1) When the Romans surrounded and destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD. It was a sign to God's people to flee the city.

2) The work of the pagan and papal phases of the little horn in casting down the truth of the gospel and Christ's work in the heavenly sanctuary.

3) When the national Sunday law is passed and the image to the beast is formed. This is a sign for God's people to leave the cities. {5 T 451}