Daniel 11

[Samie]

Samie,

No one has denied that the Little Horn, Man of Sin is a "man".

You simply aren't grasping what we are saying.

The Little Horn/Man of Sin is a man, but not one single man at one single point in time. And this man is the "representative" of the entire system.

In other words, you, as the single man, represent the entire business. So when we refer to you, we're referring to you and your business.

The Papacy is headed by a single man, the POPE! He has the eyes of a man. But the Pope represents the entire Papal System, so everything in the Papal System, all the way down to its cardinals and monks is a "part" of this "man of sin system".

It's simply to when Paul said the "man of God".

Once again, you refuse to read my article, as I address all these arguments.

I just might copy and paste it here eventually if you refuse to read it.

Your mind is so pidgeon holed into the Jesuit, Psuedepigraphal Beliar Man, possessing all the power of the Devil at one single time in history, that you seem incapable of ascertaining these things.

Seriously now, like a single man at one point in time (Revelation 13), is going to grow 10 horns on him?? lol WOOWWW

Oh oh can we help you see that this view is Comic Book Fiction? Left-Behind Fiction? Walt Disney FICTION? Perfidious, Jesuit, Pseuedepigraphal GARBAGE!

You can do better than that, Lysimachus. You never had addressed my posts in this thread head on. I will make it easier for you.

As I have time and again posted, the only basis for my understanding of Dan 11:21-45 is the words of our Savior that the setting up of the AoD signals the start of the great tribulation. Now this is the foundation. Why not try demolishing this foundation and the whole of what I may have built upon it will come crashing down like the walls of Jericho.

Just a little reminder. Make sure you have what it takes to complete your mission. I will wait, brother. Happy Sabbath!

[ClubV12]

Ah yes,,, back to the AoD debate. I recall how Sister White chastized her husband, James, by telling him to just keep quiet about it and quit arguing with Uriah Smith over it. This was a very bitter pill for James, but he accepted the counsel. He was absolutely convinced that he MUST maintain his position for the sake of the Church! That if Uriah Smith was allowed to continue his views on the AoD it would seriously injure the Adventist cause. What great strength of character and humility it must have taken on James part to keep his mouth shut. A lesson we could all learn from...

It, the AoD, is a minor detail in the grand scheme of things and not at all worthy of consideration WHEN it leads to division and the scattering of Gods people. The need for unity trumped just about everything with Sister White. If you look up how many times and ways she used the phrase, "press together" it may well exceed a hundred. I know it's a LOT!

Daniel 40-45, which are the key verses our pioneers wrestled with and we wrestle with today are the real issue. The end time events, we KNOW they are even at the door and just about to be fulfilled, THAT is the really important issue.

To "prove" the daily is impossible for those seeking, book, chapter and verse. It will never happen, the only posssible way to grasp it is by looking at the larger picture, comparing verse to verse, book to book. If it was "easy" and could be "simply" proved with a verse or two, it would have been solved a 100 years ago. In that regard, we do not have any more additional light on the subject than Ellen White had in her time. On the other hand, there is MUCH that we can RULE OUT as the AoD, which helps a bunch.

[Lysimachus]

You can do better than that, Lysimachus. You never had addressed my posts in this thread head on. I will make it easier for you.

As I have time and again posted, the only basis for my understanding of Dan 11:21-45 is the words of our Savior that the setting up of the AoD signals the start of the great tribulation. Now this is the foundation. Why not try demolishing this foundation and the whole of what I may have built upon it will come crashing down like the walls of Jericho.

Just a little reminder. Make sure you have what it takes to complete your mission. I will wait, brother. Happy Sabbath!

Jesus, in Matthew, Mark, and Luke, was not alluding to Daniel 11:21-45. He was alluding to Daniel 9:

Daniel

9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

9:25 Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Daniel 11 is a completely different ball of wax Samie.

It's not talking about the same abomination of desolation.

Daniel 9 was referring to Israel alone.

Daniel 11 is encompassing world-wide global issues.

[wayfinder]

Gordon, you should trying reading more of Ellen White before you open your mouth and stick your foot in it.

The very men whom Saul had purposed to destroy were to be his instructors in the religion which he had despised and persecuted."

Redemption; or The Ministry of Peter and the Conversion of Saul." (45)

Galatians 1:11-17 NAS

11 For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ. 13 For you have heard of my former manner of life in Judaism, how I used to persecute the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it; 14 and I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries among my countrymen, being more extremely zealous for my ancestral traditions. 15 But when God, who had set me apart even from my mother's womb and called me through His grace, was pleased 16 to reveal His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with flesh and blood, 17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went away to Arabia, and returned once more to Damascus.

Never ever, did John or Peter or any of Jesus disciples, work with Paul or instruct him. Paul made it clear that none of the "so called pillars" were abel to add anything to his gospel, in fact, Paul states quite clearly that his gospel is for the Gentiles and that he is the apostle to the Gentiles.

Romans 15:16,20 to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles, ministering as a priest the gospel of God, so that my offering of the Gentiles may become acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

20 And thus I aspired to preach the gospel, not where Christ was already named, so that I would not build on another man's foundation;

("so I would not build on another man's foundation") Saul/Paul laid his own foundation and built upon it, himself.

[Lysimachus]

It should also be mentioned that in Daniel 11:31 concerning the "abomination that maketh desolate" in the context of intrigue and corrupt flatteries, not to mention that he does not have the "desire of women". Daniel 12:11 is also in context of a heavenly warfare, where the angel is standing with two feet, one on each side of the bank of the river.

However, when Jesus alludes to the "abomination of desolation" in Matthew 24:14,15; Mark 13:14; Luke 21:20, 21, he is referencing Daniel in context of "armies" "encompassing Jerusalem". This is non-other than Daniel 9:26,27 language! It speaks of a "flood" and "overspreading" wings, which is a symbol of armies.

Daniel 9:24-27 is in context of the city of Jerusalem.

Matthew 24:14,15; Mark 13:14; Luke 20,21 is in context of the city of Jerusalem

Daniel 11 -- NO MENTION OF JERUSALEM. This is in relation to God's people, and a spiritual sanctuary.

Daniel 12 - NO MENTION OF JERUSALEM.

[Lysimachus]

Conclusion:

The abomination of desolation in Daniel 11 and 12 is not, and I repeat, NOT the same abomination of desolation referred to in Daniel 9:24-27---the words of Jesus.

A type of a future spiritual abomination of desolation? Yes. Daniel 11 and 12's "abomination of desolation" is the "antitype" of Daniel 9:24-27's "abomination of desolation".

[Samie]

Conclusion:

The abomination of desolation in Daniel 11 and 12 is not, and I repeat, NOT the same abomination of desolation referred to in Daniel 9:24-27---the words of Jesus.

A type of a future spiritual abomination of desolation? Yes. Daniel 11 and 12's "abomination of desolation" is the "antitype" of Daniel 9:24-27's "abomination of desolation".

After your conclusion, brother, it's necessary to analyze it under the scrutiny of the magnifying glass of the unerring word of God, which you should have done with my position but never did. You may however, do it after we are through with yours.

Again, we will base the scrutiny of your position upon the words of our Savior in Matt & Mark (Luke did not mention the AoD) that the setting up of the AoD signals the start of the great tribulation.

1. Your position failed to specify what the AoD was, despite your claim that Dan 9 instead of 11 & 12 was what Jesus meant. But just in case my understanding of your recent posts may have overlooked it, what is the fulfillment of the AoD in Dan 9, if any?

2. After identifying the AoD, are you in a position to tell me whether it had been set up or not?

3. If it had been, then are you saying the great tribulation had occurred in accordance with what our Savior said?

There are some other concerns yet, but I need to wait after you have addressed the above. I will wait for your reply.

Thank you.

[John317]

Samie verse 22 is the crucifixtion of Christ, an ANCHOR POINT in Daniel 11, AD 31.

Originally Posted By: Samie

How did you arrive at that conclusion, brother? Why would not it be His baptism, instead? Please explain.

Quote:

Daniel 11:21-22

And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries. [22] And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.

The contemptible, or vile, person was Tiberius, the adopted son of Augustus. Jesus Christ was crucified on the order of Tiberius' procurator, Pontius Pilate. It isn't referring to Jesus' baptism, because the baptism of Jesus had nothing to do with Tiberius or with the Romans. Tiberius was very successful as leader of military campaigns in various parts of Europe, where his armies came in like a flood.

[John317]

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4

Quote:

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

I have no disagreement that indeed the man of sin is a leader; in fact I had said he is a king, as the Bible explicitly says. As king who demands worship, he wields tremendous religious and political powers at his disposal.

Notice where the prophecy says the man of sin sits-- in the temple of God. In other words, Satan succeeds in getting the man of sin INSIDE the church. Satan has something like a "Trojan horse" inside the church and it is recognized by almost the whole church as the leading spokesman of Christianity.

How long has this been going on? Is it something that happens only for a few years, just before Christ's return?

Or has the "man of sin" been active INSIDE the church for a very long time?

[wayfinder]

Conclusion:

The abomination of desolation in Daniel 11 and 12 is not, and I repeat, NOT the same abomination of desolation referred to in Daniel 9:24-27---the words of Jesus.

A type of a future spiritual abomination of desolation? Yes. Daniel 11 and 12's "abomination of desolation" is the "antitype" of Daniel 9:24-27's "abomination of desolation".

The "abomination of desolation" in Daniel 9, is a "life road" prophecy. A life road prophecy is a prophecy that is conditional, conditiona based upon the spiritual condition of Israel. If Israel has chosen the way of life, then the prophecies of life are the reality they experience. If they have chosen the way of death then the prophecies of death and distruction are the reality.

In the prophecy of Daniel the condition was stipulated in verse 24 "to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonementfor iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy place. If Israel used the determined time-period given to them to become the holy nation of God then when their Messiah would have taken His seat on the throne of David and the judgment for the world would commemce. A key part of this prophecy is "to seal up vision and prophecy", the vision was the one given to Daniel previously, the one recorded in chapter 8. Daniel is given very specific information in this vision. First, in verse 19 "Behold, I am going to let you know what will occur at the final period of the indignation, for it pertains to the appointed time of the end. Second verse 27 "...but I was astounded at the vision, and there was none to explain it". At the conclusion of the vision, it was beyond Daniel's understanding. Daniel prayed for undertsanding and (in chapter 9) the angel Gabriel was sent to give him insight and understanding. The seventy sevens were determined to Israel from the 2300 eve. and morn. of chapter 8. If Israel had accomplished what God required of them, then the prophecy of Daniel 8 would never have to take place (sealed up). The evil one would have had his war with the kingdom of God when the Messiah would have taken His throne in Jerusalem and the part of the prophecy of Daniel 9:26,27 would have taken place. They did not He did not and it never happened and never will. We are now in the Daniel chapter 8, 10-12 reality. The abomination of desolation will be set up in the great city Babylon, which will be Jerusalem, at the end of the great tribulation. This tribulation may start as early as 2016 and terminate in 2019, only God knows for sure.

[John317]

The very men whom Saul had purposed to destroy were to be his instructors in the religion which he had despised and persecuted."

Redemption; or The Ministry of Peter and the Conversion of Saul." (45)

Originally Posted By: Wayfinder

....Never ever, did John or Peter or any of Jesus disciples, work with Paul or instruct him. Paul made it clear that none of the "so called pillars" were abel to add anything to his gospel, in fact, Paul states quite clearly that his gospel is for the Gentiles and that he is the apostle to the Gentiles.

Acts 9:5-19

And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. [6] And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. [7] And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man. [8] And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus. [9] And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.

[10] And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord. [11] And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth, [12] And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight. [13] Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem: [14] And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name. [15] But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: [16] For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake. [17] And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. [18] And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized. [19] And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.

We don't know who the disciples were, but we can be certain that whoever they were, they talked with Paul about Jesus and His teachings.

[wayfinder]

I give a statement from Paul's own written word, and you give me a "we don't know". So are you saying that Paul was less then truthful in his statement in Galations 1?

[Lysimachus]

It should also be mentioned that in Daniel 11:31 concerning the "abomination that maketh desolate" in the context of intrigue and corrupt flatteries, not to mention that he does not have the "desire of women". Daniel 12:11 is also in context of a heavenly warfare, where the angel is standing with two feet, one on each side of the bank of the river.

However, when Jesus alludes to the "abomination of desolation" in Matthew 24:14,15; Mark 13:14; Luke 21:20, 21, he is referencing Daniel in context of "armies" "encompassing Jerusalem". This is non-other than Daniel 9:26,27 language! It speaks of a "flood" and "overspreading" wings, which is a symbol of armies.

Daniel 9:24-27 is in context of the city of Jerusalem.

Matthew 24:14,15; Mark 13:14; Luke 20,21 is in context of the city of Jerusalem

Daniel 11 -- NO MENTION OF JERUSALEM. This is in relation to God's people, and a spiritual sanctuary.

Daniel 12 - NO MENTION OF JERUSALEM.

[John317]

I had already followed you to the "horns" in Dan 7 from the "man of sin" which you said is not a man.

No, I didn't say this. What I said was that the man of sin is not a single individual. The man of sin is the same as the little horn of Daniel 7 and the antichrist power. These are representative of the papal system and the Roman Catholic Church. The pope is a man, but if the RCC should elect a female as a pope, it wouldn't change anything so far as the prophecy is concerned. The prophecy (v. 8) is simply that a human is the head of the little-horn power. It has the eyes of a man and a mouth that speaks pompous words.

In 1 Thessalonians 2: 3-8, the apostle Paul says that this same "mystery of lawlessness was already at work" in his day and that this "man of sin" or "son of perdition" will be destroyed when Christ returns. This obviously makes it impossible for it to be referring to a single individual. Paul was talking about something evil that was already beginning to show itself in the early church of his day. Paul taught the people that the "son of perdition," or "man of sin," couldn't be revealed until "he who now restrains... is taken out of the way." Verse 4 tells us that this "man of sin" will take his place in "the temple of God." According to 1 Cor. 3: 16, the temple of God is the church.

1 Cor. 3:16

Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you?

QUESTION: What religious/political system has been inside the Christian church continuously since shortly after the time of Paul-- close to 2,000 years?

There is only one power which is headed by a man and fulfills all of the marks of identity of the little-horn power found in the prophecies. I think you know which power that is.

Originally Posted By: Samie

Please, let go of the "beasts"; let's dwell on the "horns" first. In this vein, I'll ignore and delete from quote the "beasts" portion of your post and address the "horns" issue.

It's relevent to your question to notice that the beasts, which are actually kingdoms, are also called "kings" (Dan 7: 17). So they are called "four kings" when actually they are four kingdoms. The fourth beast is "a fourth kingdom on earth." This is proof that just because they are called "ten kings" doesn't mean they are individual kings instead of kingdoms. We know from Daniel 2: 41, 42 that ten kingdoms arise from the fourth kingdom. These ten kingdoms referred to in Daniel 2 are the ten "kings" or kingdoms that arise from the fourth beast as described in Daniel 7: 7-8.

Originally Posted By: John317

...

The ten horns represent kingdoms emerging from the fourth kingdom symbolized by the beast (vvs. 23, 24). As in the dream of the statue, the fourth kingdom ends up being divided. Daniel 2: 41, 42. cf. Daniel 7: 7,8.

...

Originally Posted By: Samie

You said the "ten horns represent kingdoms" citing in parenthesis vv23, 24. Here's v24:

Daniel 7:24

Quote:

And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings

The Bible emphatically tells us horns are kings NOT kingdoms, here in the vision in Daniel 7. I agree, kings have kingdoms. But kings are not kingdoms. They are two different entities, distinct and separate from each other. A "king" is a person, an individual; a "kingdom" is not.

I have to emphasize this because the issue is whether the "horns" are individual kings or powers. And I have just shown Bible verse emphatically saying "horns" are "kings".

Kings are representative of kingdoms.

Remember that we're talking about symbology. We're not talking about literal beasts any more than we are about literal kings. We're talking instead about kingdoms and earthly powers which have humans at their head. But what's important to consider here is that a kingdom is much more than a single king. For instance, Daniel told Nebuchadnezzar that he was the head of gold (Daniel 2: 38), but of course Babylon was symbolized by more kings than Nebuchadnezzar. Babylon was also symbolized by its other kings. Nebuchadnezzar was just one of those kings that representated the head of gold, or the kingdom of Babylon.

[Samie]

For readability and space-saving reasons, I will not quote but rather get the gist of your reply to my three questions. Please don't hesitate to call my attention if you believe I misunderstood your reply.

1. Your position failed to specify what the AoD was, despite your claim that Dan 9 instead of 11 & 12 was what Jesus meant. But just in case my understanding of your recent posts may have overlooked it, what is the fulfillment of the AoD in Dan 9, if any?

[Overaged]

Having noted what you say above, ClubV12... on the other hand in the store here I've had the most wonderful chats with people, our people. There IS power in those messages and it's coming along. I realise it is tough in some areas to live and witness but light is coming through with power.

Dan 11:32 With flattery he will corrupt those who abandon the promise. But the people who know their God will be strong and take action.

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

I had already followed you to the "horns" in Dan 7 from the "man of sin" which you said is not a man.

No, I didn't say this. What I said was that the man of sin is not a single individual.

...

[Lysimachus]

Symbology, yes, that's correct. But the symbol "horn" is already given meaning, and it is "king". "King" is no longer a symbol. Same case with the symbol "beast" which was given meaning as "kingdom", which no longer is a symbol. The meaning given to the symbol "head of gold" is Nebuchadnezzar. Nebuchadnezzar is no longer a symbol.

I don't know how you can possibly say this. Nebuchadnezzar most certainly is a symbol. He represents his kingdom.

Notice:

"Thou art this head of gold. And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth. And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all [things]: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise." (Daniel 2:38b-40)

You want to make the head of gold only Nebuchadnezzar, but then this would make the metals inconsistent.

So the head of gold only represents Nebuchadnezzar, as a single man, and then the rest of the 3 metals represent kingdoms? Then why say "another" kingdom? Why not say, "And after thee shall arise a kingdom?" The word "another" is revealing as to the meaning.

It's very plain Samie.

Horns also represent both kings and kingdoms, as evidenced in Daniel 8:21 and 22:

• "(21)The shaggy goat is the king of Greece, and the large horn between its eyes is the first king. (22) The four horns that replaced the one that was broken off represent four kingdoms that will emerge from his nation but will not have the same power."

One could argue, I suppose and try to say that if the large horn represented Alexander the Great, then it is consistent to say that the other horns are kings too. But this fails to realize the fact that Alexander was recognized as not only a symbol of Greece, but of his Macedonian empire. The Macedonian empire emerged out of the Grecian empire, or one could say, it was the Macedonian arm that spearheaded Greece to glory--which was headed by Alexander the Great.

At any rate, Daniel 8:21 and 22 is proof positive that horns are a symbol of more than just a man. They symbolize a KINGDOM, and a KING. A Kingdom is headed by a King, and the King is the representative figure OF the kingdom!

[John317]

I had already followed you to the "horns" in Dan 7 from the "man of sin" which you said is not a man.

Originally Posted By: John3:17

No, I didn't say this. What I said was that the man of sin is not a single individual.

...

Originally Posted By: Samie

Is that so?

Yep.

Originally Posted By: Samie

I surmise that's what you meant because this was what you said:

Originally Posted By: John317

The man of sin, & the beast, is not a single man but it's a religious/political power that is headed by a man.

Converting to a simple sentence without modifiers, your statement redounds to "The man of sin is a religious/political power". And power is not a man.

Political, religious powers-- such as the papacy-- consist of humans and have a human at its head.

[Overaged]

Correct John 317

I would like to challenge members who are discussing in this topic to also examine Daniel 11 on a personal basis. In all Bible prophecy, God is speaking to each of us personally, today.

Sometimes, the labor required to try to agree on all the kings and kingdoms stuff can take away from all the other rich treasures of this amazing chapter in Daniel.

Besides identifying these, what else is there in Daniel 11 for God's people today? What can we learn? What can we apply? What is God saying to us personally here?

[John317]

I would like to challenge members who are discussing in this topic to also examine Daniel 11 on a personal basis. In all Bible prophecy, God is speaking to each of us personally, today.

I agree. It's nothing if it's not speaking to us personally.

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

I would like to challenge members who are discussing in this topic to also examine Daniel 11 on a personal basis. In all Bible prophecy, God is speaking to each of us personally, today.

I agree. It's nothing if it's not speaking to us personally.

One of the things that first attracted me to the church, and to being a Christian, was what our church taught me about the books of Daniel & The Revelation.

One of the first things they taught me was something very precious to me out of Daniel, chapter 11. (this was 20 years ago now) And what they taught me has kept me a believer through all the times when personal crises, or crises in the church, had threatened to snuff out the very existence of my spiritual life.

Here is the text that did it, and still does it:

Dan 11:32 With flattery he will corrupt those who abandon the promise. But the people who know their God will be strong and take action. (GW Version)

There is a concept here that is often missed in discussions of Bible prophecy - and that is that we can experience immense blessings in even today. Notice, how the text says: "the people who know their God;" and on that note, we can also see how closely the Old Testament, is united with the New Testament, when we compare this with John 17:3

Joh 17:3 This is eternal life: to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you sent.

The experience of God's people through all these trying times depicted in Bible prophecy, is that they know God very well; and based on this knowledge, they are able to take EFFECTIVE action. We can see this going on a lot here in Daniel 11. And the beautiful thing about this is that it also applies to us today! Is the kingdom of darkness trying to crowd out your light? is the little horn of error confusing you and discouraging you about God or the church? By knowing God, you will be able to take effective action NOW and be happy in Jesus, and in His Church.

This is an important part of the message of Daniel 11.

[John317]

Wonderful post, Overaged. You make so many good points. We definitely want to be among those who know their God and are strong in defense of the truth of the gospel.

Daniel 11: 31-35 is a really important section:

KJV--Daniel 11:31-35

And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. [32] And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits. [33] And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. [34] Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. [35] And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

(ESV)Daniel 11:31-35

Forces from him shall appear and profane the temple and fortress, and shall take away the regular burnt offering. And they shall set up the abomination that makes desolate. [32] He shall seduce with flattery those who violate the covenant, but the people who know their God shall stand firm and take action. [33] And the wise among the people shall make many understand, though for some days they shall stumble by sword and flame, by captivity and plunder. [34] When they stumble, they shall receive a little help. And many shall join themselves to them with flattery, [35] and some of the wise shall stumble, so that they may be refined, purified, and made white, until the time of the end, for it still awaits the appointed time.

I see a clear relationship between verse 35 and the cleansing of the sanctuary. God is cleansing the soul temple of His people on earth at the same time that the heavenly sanctuary is being cleansed.

Daniel 12: 9, 10 and other verses make it clear that just before the return of Christ for His church, there will be a time of cleansing:

Daniel 12: 9--

He said, "Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end.

Many shall purify themselves and make themselves white and be refined, but the wicked shall act wickedly. And none of the wicked shall understand, but those who are wise shall understand.

Rev. 7:13-14

Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, "Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?" [14] I said to him, "Sir, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev. 19:7-8

Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. [8] And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteous acts of saints.

[Overaged]

And note vs 35 "some of the wise shall stumble;" but no where does it say they are in "apostasy" or any such things as we have seen some post here in other topics. Note what the Bible says in this text about why God allows them to "fail." And i know that the spirit of prophecy is in total agreement with this.

[Samie]

Lysinachus, You responded to the post for John317. Here's the post for you, reposted:

For readability and space-saving reasons, I will not quote but rather get the gist of your reply to my three questions. Please don't hesitate to call my attention if you believe I misunderstood your reply.

1. Your position failed to specify what the AoD was, despite your claim that Dan 9 instead of 11 & 12 was what Jesus meant. But just in case my understanding of your recent posts may have overlooked it, what is the fulfillment of the AoD in Dan 9, if any?