Samie Posted February 25, 2012 Posted February 25, 2012 John317, The one who explained to Daniel said the "ten horns" are "ten kings". It is the beast that is the "kingdom", and the horns of the beast, "kings". Daniel 7:23-24 Quote: 23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. 24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. Quote
whatisthis Posted February 25, 2012 Posted February 25, 2012 Umm, I haven't carefully read all the thread, and I do hunger to know more about these topics, but it is confusing when it becomes personal. As I see it, the truths are not about who is lying about whom, it's about opening up the beauty of understanding some wonderful truth, isn't it? Let's take a deep breath, shake hands, focus on the topics and try not to get to far off of them into other things that are related but don't answer the questions, and pray our way through things here, okay? 'Leastways, that's what I think, though I know I wasn't asked. Quote more later
whatisthis Posted February 25, 2012 Posted February 25, 2012 It appears that the King of the North will be a union of christians, jews and catholics. The King of the South will be a union of Muslim, and all of the 'Eastern Religions". God says they both are evil. So, can someone please tell me what makes Christians evil? Whoa, that is like saying "What makes Anti-Christ evil?" So-called Christians will do what the so-called Jews did when they crucified Jesus. This is why we all have to be leaning hard on Jesus not to be talking about Him while not knowing Him at all. I need to know so much more about Him! I feel so insufficient to be able to say anything, but I can't let you think that this is about calling true Christianity evil! Quote more later
Members phkrause Posted February 26, 2012 Members Posted February 26, 2012 Excellent points OA, I totally agree that we need to make it personal also. Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
Dr. Rich Posted February 26, 2012 Posted February 26, 2012 Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich It appears that the King of the North will be a union of christians, jews and catholics. The King of the South will be a union of Muslim, and all of the 'Eastern Religions". God says they both are evil. So, can someone please tell me what makes Christians evil? Whoa, that is like saying "What makes Anti-Christ evil?" So-called Christians will do what the so-called Jews did when they crucified Jesus. This is why we all have to be leaning hard on Jesus not to be talking about Him while not knowing Him at all. I need to know so much more about Him! I feel so insufficient to be able to say anything, but I can't let you think that this is about calling true Christianity evil! You did great 'whatisthis'. One can't know Jesus without reading the words of Jesus given to us by His eyewitnesses. John 14:26 proves that only those who knew Jesus could have the Holy Spirit cause them to rememver everything He said. John 17:17-22 shows us that the words of the same people the Holy Spirit caused to remember (eyewitnesses) are very important, because only thru them can one understand and believe the real truth. This is also why the words of others may sound great, but they may or may not be the truth. If what they wrote does not agree with what Jesus said, then toss it away. After all, Jesus even warned His own disciples not to become deceived (Matt. 24:4). And just who would that be? You guessed it==Paul! Quote
Dr. Rich Posted February 26, 2012 Posted February 26, 2012 Originally Posted By: Overaged I would like to challenge members who are discussing in this topic to also examine Daniel 11 on a personal basis. In all Bible prophecy, God is speaking to each of us personally, today. I agree. It's nothing if it's not speaking to us personally. Not so fast John--the gospel Jesus taught was about the Kingdom of Heaven. One must first be IN the KOH--and that is a corporate thing. To be there, one must keep all of the 10 Commandments and hold to the words of Jesus. Rev. 12:17--Notice that Satan goes up against a corporate group--those who abide? Quote
ClubV12 Posted February 26, 2012 Posted February 26, 2012 Dr.Rich, being a lawyer, how accurate do you find eye witness testimony in a court of law to be? Or, perhaps you have ignored the many studies that show just how flawed it can be. How many people have been falsely convicted because of it. How many tragic mistakes have been made when those witness' are compelled by the prosecution to say what they are told to say. Why do you trust the eye witness' in the bible but the reject Paul? If eye witness' aren't any more reliable than any other guy on the street, whats the difference? If Paul is lieing, why can't Peter be lieing? Or Matthew or John or any other biblical author for that matter. Why do you even trust the Old Testament authors? Why not just throw out the bible entirely in fact, based on your reasoning, I would be an atheist! Quote
Dr. Rich Posted February 26, 2012 Posted February 26, 2012 LOL, U clearly don't understand the importance of Jn. 14:26, do you? The Holy Spirit can't cause anyone to remember if they first did not hear it the first time. What don't you understand about that? No go and in no more/ Quote
Samie Posted February 26, 2012 Posted February 26, 2012 Matthew 24:15 Quote: When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)Anyone who would like to address this question? How many "abomination of desolation" do you honestly believe Christ was referring to in the verse above? Anyone willing to address this issue? Thank you for a bible-based explanation of your answer. Quote
ClubV12 Posted February 26, 2012 Posted February 26, 2012 I see, you base your assumptions on faith in the Holy Spirit while rejecting the Spirits ability to speak through Paul. Uh,,, yeah,,, that is confusing how you limit the power of the Holy Spirit to a strict protocol of your choosing. Quote
Aliensanctuary Posted February 26, 2012 Posted February 26, 2012 Daniel 8:13 Little Big Horn Quote: "For how long is this vision concerning the regular burnt offering, the transgression that makes desolate, and the giving over of the sanctuary and host to be trampled?" Dan 9:27 Prince Who is to Come Quote: and for half of the week he shall make sacrifice and offering cease; and in their place shall be an abomination that desolates, until the decreed end is poured out upon the desolator." Daniel 11:31 King of the North Quote: Forces sent by him shall occupy and profane the temple and fortress. They shall abolish the regular burnt offering and set up the abomination that makes desolate. Daniel 12:11 (perpetrator not stated) Quote: From the time that the regular burnt offering is taken away and the abomination that desolates is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred ninety days. It looks like the events associated with the Abomination of Desolation are the same. Although the perpetrators do not have the same name, they could very well be the same individual. Matt 24:15 Quote: Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place... In Matt 24, Jesus seemed to refer to all 4 Abominations of Desolation as one signal event. This event initiates the Great Time of Trouble, immediately followed by the darkening of the sun and moon, widespread showers of meteors, and the severe shaking of Earth and Sky. Only after these events occur, then the Son of Man will return to gather his Chosen Ones from around the world. Human sacrifice upon the Altar of Sacrifice in the Last Days Temple on Earth would indeed be a horrible abomination. Especially if the victim's heads were removed by a guillotine before the bodies were cremated and their ashes trodden underfoot by the winners of the war. Quote The Parable of the Lamb and the Pigpen https://www.createspace.com/3401451
Samie Posted February 26, 2012 Posted February 26, 2012 ...Matt 24:15 Quote: Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place... In Matt 24, Jesus seemed to refer to all 4 Abominations of Desolation as one signal event. This event initiates the Great Time of Trouble, immediately followed by the darkening of the sun and moon, widespread showers of meteors, and the severe shaking of Earth and Sky. Only after these events occur, then the Son of Man will return to gather his Chosen Ones from around the world. Human sacrifice upon the Altar of Sacrifice in the Last Days Temple on Earth would indeed be a horrible abomination. Especially if the victim's heads were removed by a guillotine before the bodies were cremated and their ashes trodden underfoot by the winners of the war. What in the verse itself, Matt 24:15 led you to conclude that there are FOUR (4) AoD's instead of ONE (1)? Quote
ClubV12 Posted February 26, 2012 Posted February 26, 2012 Due to the elasticity of the word I can leave room for multiple applications of the AoD. However, in my view, the significant event occured in 538 AD when the rising Roman Catholicism attained full power in an alliance with the Government. From that date we get 1,260 years. I also leave room for those that see 508 as the primary time frame, or 1,290 years. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted February 26, 2012 Moderators Posted February 26, 2012 John317, The one who explained to Daniel said the "ten horns" are "ten kings". It is the beast that is the "kingdom", and the horns of the beast, "kings". Daniel 7:23-24 You evidently forget that the same one also explained that the male goat of Daniel 8: 21 (the third beast) is "king of Greece." Yet the male goat, or third beast, is actually not a "king" at all but rather the kingdom of Greece; and the large horn between the eyes of the goat represents the first king, Alexander the Great. Notice also that Daniel 8: 22 says that the four horns represent four kingdoms. Daniel 7: 17 says that the four beasts arising out of the sea are "four kings," yet we know they are kingdoms and earthly powers which have kings at their head. All this proves that "king" or "kings" represent their kingdoms. Therefore when the angel said that the four horns are four kings that shall arise from the fourth kingdom, it is referring to the same ten kingdoms, symbolized by the toes, that came out of the fourth kingdom in Daniel 2: 41-43. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Aliensanctuary Posted February 26, 2012 Posted February 26, 2012 Quote: What in the verse itself, Matt 24:15 led you to conclude that there are FOUR (4) AoD's instead of ONE (1)? Perhaps I was not clear. All four verses in Dan reference the same event---the AoD. Let me rephrase... In Matt 24, Jesus seemed to imply that Daniel's four references to the Abomination of Desolation were referring to the same signal event. Quote The Parable of the Lamb and the Pigpen https://www.createspace.com/3401451
Samie Posted February 26, 2012 Posted February 26, 2012 Quote: What in the verse itself, Matt 24:15 led you to conclude that there are FOUR (4) AoD's instead of ONE (1)? Perhaps I was not clear. All four verses in Dan reference the same event---the AoD. Let me rephrase... In Matt 24, Jesus seemed to imply that Daniel's four references to the Abomination of Desolation were referring to the same signal event. Oh, sorry, if I did not get it the first time. We are on the same side of the fence that our Lord was referring to ONE & ONLY ONE AoD. And when this AoD is set up, a rapid succession of events culminating in the 2nd Coming of the Lord, will be triggered starting from the Great Tribulation. Quote
Lysimachus Posted February 26, 2012 Posted February 26, 2012 As I have already shown, based on the context, the textual and contextual analsyes of the verses in question, there are a total of at least 3 (or 4) Abominations of Desolations being spoken about. The Spirit of Prophecy confirms this. Quote ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf
ClubV12 Posted February 26, 2012 Posted February 26, 2012 One word..... "Elasiticity".... (of the word). Quote
Lysimachus Posted February 26, 2012 Posted February 26, 2012 Excellent studies on the AoD: http://biblelight.net/abomination-of-desolation.htm http://www.endtimeissues.com/Articles/Ar...esolation-.html http://biblicalresearch.gc.adventist.org/documents/Abomination.pdf http://www.amazingfacts.org/free-stuff/o...ation/sc/r.aspx http://www.abomination-of-desolation.com/ - Page 2 Quote ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf
Samie Posted February 26, 2012 Posted February 26, 2012 abomination of desolation from the Greek bdelugma tes eremosews bdelugma noun accusative neuter singular Strong's data <946> for bdelugma Meaning: 1) a foul thing, a detestable thing 1a) of idols and things pertaining to idolatry Origin: from 948; TDNT - 1:598,103; n n Usage: AV - abomination 6; 6 bdelugma is singular, NOT plural. I really wonder there are others who want it more than ONE (1). Christ made it even more specific via the definite article "the". In defense of the Sabbath, we often make use of this article, as in, "the Sabbath", specifically referring to a definite one - the 7th day of the week, NOT "a Sabbath" which could be any one of the 7 weekdays. Quote
Lysimachus Posted February 26, 2012 Posted February 26, 2012 And? What's your point Samie? Quote ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf
Aliensanctuary Posted February 26, 2012 Posted February 26, 2012 Quote: One word..... "Elasiticity" [sic].... (of the word). The Elastic Word---a rubber Bible which anyone can use to stretch the truth into any preferred shape or direction. Quote The Parable of the Lamb and the Pigpen https://www.createspace.com/3401451
ClubV12 Posted February 26, 2012 Posted February 26, 2012 Well,,, thats not exactly what I had in mind Alien, but I certainly understand how that has been done. It, uh, can be stretched beyond the limits of reason in some cases. :) Quote
Aliensanctuary Posted February 26, 2012 Posted February 26, 2012 Quote: abomination of desolation from the Greek bdelugma tes eremosews Perhaps this event triggers a futile rescue attempt from above by the armies of heaven, sent to try to rescue those trapped within, or underneath, the Last Days Temple. Quote The Parable of the Lamb and the Pigpen https://www.createspace.com/3401451
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