Daniel 11

[Gordon1]

A commentary was never in William Miller's rules.

This would have nullified his work before it began.

A concordance is a serious Bible reference tool.

A search engine without commentary.

Check your local library.

[Samie]

Samie, your Ellen White quote on the bible and the bible only is out of context. She herself, being no idiot, used all that was available to her in studying the bible. Only a fool would not.

...

Out of context? How so? Did it not ever occur to you the reason why she said the bible and the bible alone could perhaps be what she found in her extra-biblical readings are mostly anti-biblical? Think about it, brother.

Your ad-hominem slant, are they purposely resorted to so this thread be locked to end your dilemma of not being able to prove your case? I don't think forum moderators would buy it.

Now back to the issue. Are you still able to show how your position is a "Thus saith the Lord"?

[ClubV12]

Check your common sense Gordon, it dropped out of your pocket somewhere.

What FOOL would NOT employ every available tool when doing research? WHAT FOOL would do that Gordon?

William Miller had RULES for prophecy interpretation, you missed that point. Try to keep up....

What FOOL of a scientist, a home builder, a mechanic would ignore the discoveries and opinions of those who came before him?

Ellen White says some will have to learn in a few months what it has taken others YEARS to learn. I have not yet been baptized a full year. But it's becoming apparent, I'm way ahead of most of the class around here. And those who have studied for years resent me for it. That is THEIR problem.

[ClubV12]

Samie, I HAVE proved my point, your just to blind and conceited to see it!

Your quote on the bible and the bible only is out of context, and frankly, foolish. Sister White NEVER said we should not use the counsel of the brethren, a concordance, a commentary in our research. She DID warn us about folks like YOU though, that ignore the TESTIMONIES and chart their own path. In their foolish confidence thinking they and they alone is all they need.

[Gordon1]

For those not familiar with Adventist history,

William Miller employed Cruden's Concordance (1737) to assist his Bible word searches.

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance (1890) is a much more complete and versatile reference.

[ClubV12]

Wait, are you saying Miller did not use the "bible and the bible only" to develop his interpretation of scripture?

Yeah, I knew that, he was no fool you know....

[Samie]

Oh come on, brethren. Let's stay cool... It's not yet time to lock this thread. We have still unresolved issues. Please, for the sake of truth.

[ClubV12]

Actually, the issues have been resolved, as Marcos noted some many pages ago, it is pointless to continue this discussion.

Samie has a view, I, WE, the CHURCH, disagree with it. Fine, do what you will with that fact. Discussing it further is fruitless.

[Gordon1]

A pure concordance contains only the words of Scripture, simply in a different order.

[Gordon1]

What's the issue at hand Samie?

[Samie]

Samie, I HAVE proved my point, your just to blind and conceited to see it!

[ClubV12]

...and the counsel of the brethren is to be despised? Miller certainly relied heavily on it.

What tools would Miller use today? Or are you suggesting that we all go back to the 1700's and use only what was available then?

What it took Miller YEARS to learn, I learned in a matter of months, or even weeks. Long enough to VERIFY his work, and move on to the next issue.

How do you think Ellen White's prophecy of some would learn in a few months what it's taken other years to learn would be fulfilled?

Common sense, it's not really that "common" you know.

Knowledge shall increase. Some interpret that to mean we would have computers. I interpret that to mean we would USE computers to learn in a few months instead of years. The knowledge gained is not about "atoms" it is about the bible, and the bible only. The doctrines are sure and can be verified in some cases, almost instantly. Having done that, move on to the next one. You WON'T learn quickly if you keep getting hung up on minor details!!!!!

Samie, the details are blinding you to the big picture in Daniel 11 and 12.

[Samie]

What's the issue at hand Samie?

The issue is whether the king spoken of in v21 is the one and the same king up to v45. My position is, it is the same king.

[Samie]

...and the counsel of the brethren is to be despised? Miller certainly relied heavily on it.

...

Samie, the details are blinding you to the big picture in Daniel 11 and 12.

This is why we have this discussion forum. Isn't this a form of "brethren's counsel"?

[ClubV12]

It is a FORM of the brethrens counsel, but as Ellen White noted, be careful of your sources.

THAT is one reason why I really like to know just who is "posing" as an Adventist and who really IS an Adventist.

It would be no different on any other forum. On a airplane pilots forum, is that guy PRETENDING to be a pilot or is he just another "poser". The internet is filled with posers and wanna be's.

In MY opinion, if your not a member of the Church and you give the distinct impression you ARE, by quoting Ellen White and PROFESSING to love the Church, your a poser! What are you hiding and why? Inquistion? Not at all, I'm no fool, I just want to know if I'm talking to a real pilot or a guy who read a book about planes.

[Gordon1]

Thanks Samie. It doesn't seem that Daniel 10-12 has been understood with any consensus.

Few may see it as a single narrative. Daniel 11 has much to say beyond my ken, but I recall Sister White wrote that verses 30-45 would be repeated at the end of time. And that Daniel 12 contained a warning that all (SDA) would have to understand before the end.

I can't contribute much on Dan 11 at this point.

[Lysimachus]

For those not familiar with Adventist history,

William Miller employed Cruden's Concordance (1737) to assist his Bible word searches.

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance (1890) is a much more complete and versatile reference.

Nonetheless, God allowed enough correct information to be found in the Curden's Concordance to help guide Miller to find much truth about the 2300 year prophecy.

[Gordon1]

I just want to know if I'm talking to a real pilot or a guy who read a book about planes.

Read the book yourself, learn to fly, and leave the other passengers be.

[Gordon1]

[Nonetheless, God allowed enough correct information to be found in the Curden's Concordance to help guide Miller to find much truth about the 2300 year prophecy.

Indeed Marcos. Imagine what could have come about using Strong's.

On the heels of 1888.

[ClubV12]

As long as the passengers aren't trying to break down the cabin door (the pillars and fundamentals), assault the pilot (the Church) and plant bombs (false doctrine) I'll leave them alone.

When Ellen White saw what Dr. Kellogg was doing she had a simple message on how to deal with it, "meet it"!

Now concerning what MOST theologians consider on Daniel 11, up to about verse 36 it's "history". I think that is true even before 36, but thats just my opinion. While there are various interpetations for who or what makes up the details in the early parts of the chapter, most agree on the basics.

The problem really comes into play around verse 40 to 45 and into the first four verses of Daniel 12.

By including verses 40 to 45 (not to mention 12:1-4) INTO or WITH verse Dan 11:21 as a single time frame, much of the point of the prophecy is lost. 40-45 also become "history", which is a devastating position to the concept of this prophecy not only spanning thousands of years but terminating in the second coming.

Regardless of the "details" once you put 40-45 in the past, the discussion is effectively terminated. At that point your merely talking about who or what the power was in verse 21. At THIS point in time, I could almost say, "Who CARES?" It is ancient history whoever it was!

The REAL questions are who WILL BE or IS the King of the North, the South, how will this prophecy play out TOMMOROW in Iran, Egypt, Libya? The time is NOW, right now, 40-45 are going down all around us, it's happening right before our eyes!

[Samie]

It is a FORM of the brethrens counsel, but as Ellen White noted, be careful of your sources.

THAT is one reason why I really like to know just who is "posing" as an Adventist and who really IS an Adventist.

It would be no different on any other forum. On a airplane pilots forum, is that guy PRETENDING to be a pilot or is he just another "poser". The internet is filled with posers and wanna be's.

In MY opinion, if your not a member of the Church and you give the distinct impression you ARE, by quoting Ellen White and PROFESSING to love the Church, your a poser! What are you hiding and why? Inquistion? Not at all, I'm no fool, I just want to know if I'm talking to a real pilot or a guy who read a book about planes.

Oh, I see. I'm no poser, brother.

I was baptized into the SDA Church on Nov 9, 1969. I currently attend church at AIIAS (Adventist International Institute for Advanced Studies), Silang, Cavite, Philippines, although my church membership is with Lipa Adventist Academy Church, Lipa City, Philippines. If you know anybody from AIIAS, have him check my SS membership at the Tagalog SS Class of the institute.

No, I am not studying in AIIAS nor had studied there. I am but an ordinary church member.

[ClubV12]

Well said Samie, I appreciate that.

You know, you really should consider the links to Tim Roosenbergs study on Daniel 11. His position has been and is being carefully considered by the Adventist brethren, the leadership, they have found no fault in it. While many questions and specifics remain to be answered, the picture is becoming more clear. The focus is on Dan 11:40-45, Dan 12:1-4, Islam vs Christianity and what it means TODAY for the world, for the Church. It's a very important topic and one Adventist need to understand.

[Samie]

The question that comes to the fore is, who will be the most reliable source of information as far as the account in Daniel 11:21-45 is concerned. I have a simple answer to offer: the Lord Himself.

In Matt 24:15-31 (also Mk 13:14-27), the Savior told His disciples that the setting up of the AoD triggers the start of the rapid succession of events starting with the great tribulation and culminating in His 2nd Coming. This is the KEY that unlocks all the supposed difficulties in understanding Daniel 11:21-45. Nobody can perhaps deny the Savior was referring to but one and only one AoD in the book of Daniel. It is I think an exercise in futility to attempt proving Christ had some other AoD's in mind. This is because of the article "the":

KJV Matthew 24:15

Quote:

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

This is also the same article we use to defend the 7th day Sabbath of the Decalogue. Not "a" but "the" Sabbath. Similarly, not "an" but "the" abomination of desolation. Therefore, it is not a question of "which" but rather "the" abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet.Therefore, Christ was Himself indirectly telling His disciples Daniel was speaking of but one AoD.

[ClubV12]

The Ethopian said, "How can I understand without someone to teach me?" So the Lord sent him a teacher.

The pioneers were perfectly united in what the daily was in 1844. Division only arose after that. Ellen White told them to quit arguing about it, it wasn't important enough to warrant division and strife over. As for myself, I accept what the pioneers accepted. 508 AD and 538 AD, the Roman Catholic power base established. That power base received a deadly wound in 1798, but it will heal. That power base, that AoD, will revive and pick up right where it left off. Murdering the Saints once again. But the AoD itself is NOT that important. What IS important is what is happening right NOW. Daniel 11:40-45 are being fulfilled right before our very eyes! Daniel 12:1-4 will follow in short order!

Will the King of the North "pass through" the Phillipines or annilihate it? Will Irag ally with the King of the North or will the Islam influence prevail resulting in the total destruction of that country? Iran will most likely be wiped out entirely. The forces will "pass through" Jordan, most likely. What roll will Russia play in this?

Meaningless questions if Dan 11:40-45 are in the past, who cares! VERY pertinent questions if those verses are future, every Adventist on the planet needs to care!

[ClubV12]

Samie, here is basically what your up against with your view.

In general, the Adventist Church sees Dan 11:40-45 as a future fulfillment. James White saw it as a future fulfillment. I say Adventist "in general" because there are always a few who kick against the bricks in every organization. At the time of the pioneers they were considering who might be the North King and the South King in THEIR time frame. Were they wrong? Not really, considering the Lord COULD have come in their time! They were doing what we are doing, considering WHO the players might be for THEIR time, Turkey and Russia.

I've heard some Adventist say the pioneers were SO mistaken on that point they cannot be trusted! They are sweeping James White and the pioneers into the dust bin of history, a dreadful mistake. Uriah Smith got it right, for HIS time, it COULD have gone down that way, we ARE told the Lord COULD have come at that time (the Church wasn't ready, His coming delayed). To say the pioneers were wrong is to miss the point!

But the fact remains, the pioneers and the Church today continue to search out WHO the players will be in Daniel 40-45. In that respect, you are in a deep minority in your view that 40-45 has already happened. WAY out of synch with the majority view of Adventist "brethren". Some wear being out of synch with the brethren as if it were a medal, something to be PROUD off. There are many on this forum that rejoice they are not in synch, as if that proves they are right. Pride goes before the fall. It is a major red warning flag to reconsider your position, the Lord will work through the Brethren, erring though they be, they are a chosen channel. Dismiss them at your own peril. Consider your own private interpretation at great risk to your spiritual health.