Difficult Verses?, For Whom?

[Gibs]

The following two verses are difficult for the Historicists,

Da 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Da 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

The "Daily" administration in the Heavenly Sanctuary by Jesus Christ our high priest isn't taken away quite yet. Oh yes it is getting close you better believe.

All of Daniel Chapter 12: is literal time prophecy, so these days are not "time", year for a day, but are literal solar days.

This 1290 and 1335 days may be shortened for the elect's sake. That would be a total of 75 days past the 42 mos. of Rev 13:3,5 and Dan 12:7.

Re 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Then this follows,

Re 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

All of Rev chapter 13: is after 1798!

Mt 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Mt 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

The reason the 1290 and 1335 days will not come to fruitition, is John saw these days below, the same as Daniel but not the next two steps of timing to the end, 1290, 1335 days. 75 days, 2'1/2 mos.

Da 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

The math, 1335 - 1290="45", 1290-1260="30" and "45"+"30"= 75.

Will it turn out this way? Is this true? Is there a better explanation, of your own with the scripture, it must be the scripture as this is future!

Let's have it and we'll all investigate it!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

That is the classic "1335 Furturist" view Gibs, I don't buy it. The day for a year principle remains a bed rock foundation of the 2,300 YEAR prophecy.

Any RE-application of the 1260, 1290 or 1335 time frames as literal days, in the future, MUST be considered a "dual fulfillment". Having looked at this as a possibility, I reject that theology. Dual fulfillment is not possible based on the logic presented by "1335 Futurists".

By the way, I call them "1335 Futurists" as a method to distinguish this ADVENTIST ONLY view point from the what the Christian world typically associates with "Futurist" views. That is a different group.

Do you have a chart for you particular take on your 1335 Futurist views? Most folks who believe in this theology do. A typical application of such a chart has the "count down" beginning with enactment of the Sunday law. Uniquely Adventist in that regard.

Most of "1335 Futurists" have left the Church. Some have been disfellowshipped, others have simply left, still others have asked that their membership be removed.

Daniel 12:11 and 12 are not difficult at all, they are both well documented by Miller, Sister White and the Adventist Church.

I love Daniel 12:7, my personal take on the breaking of the power of the Holy People is that they see how hopeless their condition is and totally rely on the merits of Jesus. It is righteousness by faith!!!

[Gibs]

ClubV12,

You miss a hermenuetic that is one of the most important in apocolyptic prophecy. That is the clue of the time of it to happen. Here it is again, don't fly over it,

Da 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Adventists who above all who have the sanctuary doctrine and don't realize Jesus Christ has been officiating the daily since 1844. Sacrifice in the verse is an added word by the translators. Yes he was the real sacrifice that all of them pointed to but now He is the High Priest who ministers at the Altar in the Most Holy.

Well the ultimate transgreesion comes and He stands up and will say it is finished and that is not far off. Here's a picture of Him at the Altar ministering for us and this is the time He siganals the Trumpet Angels to start,

Re 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

Re 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

The first Trumpet Angel sounds when,

Re 8:5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

Re 8:6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

Re 8:7 ¶ The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

No time in history has a THIRD of the trees been burnt up and ALL the GREEN GRASS.

Here's the ultimate transgression,

Mr 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

It's wakem up time here and now!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Dr. Rich]

Gibs, I appears that you have been looking at my notes during class. LOL thanks for sharring them with others.

[ClubV12]

Of course the word "sacrafice" was added, any good student of Daniel knows that.

Sister White says we should not get hung up on the meaning of the daily and that before 1844 the pioneers were perfectly united on the definition. I agree with them. The daily and the abomination happened in 508 and was complete in 538. The Romanish power set themselves up in place of Christ to forgive sin. That power base continued for 1290 years (the dark ages).

Here's the most basic problem with Dr.Rich, Gib's and other "1335 Futurists". In order to make their case they have to make null and void the foundation that the pioneers established the Church on. Sister White warns against moving these foundational points in the strongest terms. Any "new light" must build on that which came before, not remove or replace the pillars of faith. That is exactly what 1335 Futurists do!

Now Dr.Rich doesn't have a problem with that since he utterly rejects the foundations of the Adventist Church anyway. Since he considers Ellen White a false prophet it's not problem moving them. The question for YOU Gib's is this: Do YOU consider Ellen White a false prophet? Your theology certainly says you do, but then, you quote her work as if you believe! What is your position on Ellen White Gibs, inspired or not?

For these reasons I must conclude you have no light to offer on prophecy.

[Gibs]

ClubV12,

What pillar do you see that is abolished in the above, it stands on the sanctuary message and builds on it. It wasn't time for them to fuss about the "daily" she knew well what it was I am sure but it was not for that time yet and she knew it.

If it were not for the sanctuary message you wouldn't have a clue as to when the "daily" would be taken away. Open your closed mind for a bit and you could see it. It is plain and simple and not hard to grasp.

Was she, EGW a historicist? don't think so, this is future, read,

"In Revelation we read concerning Satan: "And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, and deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: and that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name" (Revelation 13:13-17). . . . {3SM 393.1}

This chapter is mostly fulfilled now and few are discerning it.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

I never said nor inferred that Sister White was either historicist, preterist or futurist. She, and us, build on the foundation already laid.

Gib says,

"All of Daniel Chapter 12: is literal time prophecy, so these days are not "time", year for a day, but are literal solar days."

This is NOT consistent with the foundation of the Adventist Church or Sister Whites theology. Here you make a serious and major mistake. You are not building on, you are tearing down.

[wayfinder]

I never said nor inferred that Sister White was either historicist, preterist or futurist. She, and us, build on the foundation already laid.

Gib says,

"All of Daniel Chapter 12: is literal time prophecy, so these days are not "time", year for a day, but are literal solar days."

This is NOT consistent with the foundation of the Adventist Church or Sister Whites theology. Here you make a serious and major mistake. You are not building on, you are tearing down.

Isiah 28:14 Therefore, hear the word of the LORD, O scoffers , Who rule this people who are in Jerusalem, 15Because you have said, "We have made a covenant with death, And with Sheol we have made a pact. The overwhelming scourge will not reach us when it passes by, For we have made falsehood our refuge and we have concealed ourselves with deception." 16 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a tested stone, A costly cornerstone for the foundation, firmly placed. He who believes in it will not be disturbed. 17 "I will make justice the measuring line And righteousness the level; Then hail will sweep away the refuge of lies And the waters will overflow the secret place.

If you build you understanding on anyone other than the Son of God, you open yourself up for deception. The Son of God is the costly cornerstone.

Matthew 5:18 NAS

"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

We must build on no other foundation, other than, the Son of the Living God; not the advent fathers or mother, otherwise we could be building on sand. If the foundation laid in the past was truth, then it will stand the test of scrutiny, using the Law and Prophets, and the testimony of Jesus as the perfect and true stantard, then we will know that it was placed in alignment with the cornerstone laid by the Lord God.

[Gibs]

ClubV12,

This verse sets the time for the prophecy to come to pass,

Da 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Now you know as well as anyone the "daily" ministration isn't taken away yet. If it was the time Adventists call "probation" would be over.

Yes all can be mighty thankful that it isn't ended yet.

I don't condemn no one for the historic view as it is so imbedded in SDA theology that it makes it a big step to really reckon with a verse as above that sets the time of the prophecy. Really it is a hermeneutic that has been ignored, it is one of the laws of interpretation if you will see it.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

You are disregarding William Millers work Gib's, do you think he was mistaken? If so, then you must think Ellen White was a false prophet. Ellen White noted the 1,335 years were "in the past", not the future.

There is little doubt that William Millers laws of interpretation and his conclusions are substantially more worthy of consideration than yours, or Dr.Rich, wayfinder or any number of others who think they know it all and fight against the Church.

The foundation stands, it is secure. Day for a year, done.

The big difference between you, Gibs, and Dr.Rich and wayfinder is that they have already made the leap into calling Ellen White a false prophet. You will join them in due time, once you knowingly set your feet on the path of error few are able to turn back.

[Gibs]

That might have a chance of being true ClubV12 if the "daily" had been taken away back then but it was not and all better be glad of that fact.

For Heaven's sake if it had of it would have been over long long ago.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

So, William Miller got it wrong, is that it Gibs? Ellen White said Miller got it right. Are you saying she is a false prophet Gibs?

[Gibs]

Who would you have me to follow? I think I will stay with the Word as it is definite.

I think you are getting to one of the problems of them ivestigating the daily further and she saw it wouldn't be fruitful but it was fully seen it was a question that would have to be answered down the road of time for sure. It wouldn't always be a mystery. It happens it fell on us to unravel it.

Well I find it is unraveled.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[wayfinder]

You are disregarding William Millers work Gib's, do you think he was mistaken? If so, then you must think Ellen White was a false prophet. Ellen White noted the 1,335 years were "in the past", not the future.

There is little doubt that William Millers laws of interpretation and his conclusions are substantially more worthy of consideration than yours, or Dr.Rich or any number of others who think they know it all.

The foundation stands, it is secure. Day for a year, done.

ClubV12, Faith is an ally when you are searching for the facts and truth. Faith is an adversary when it is used to blind us to the facts and truth. In Dan Brown's book Angels and Demons the reason given by the camerlengo for his murderous plan was that if the "people of faith" can no longer believe by faith then this will do away with the need for God. To hold on to a belief solely because it is old and not because it is tried and true is choosing faith over facts, choosing blindness over sight, choosing darkness over light.

If you reject light, you accept darkness. If you refuse to consider truth you are mastered by a lie.

You are free to think of me in what ever manner you wish and call me what ever name you choose, but if refuse to test every element of your understanding you are setting yourself up for a fall.

Matthew 6:22"The eye is the lamp of the body ; so then if your eye is clear, your whole body will be full of light. 23"But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness !

Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles? '23"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

Salvation does not come through our staunch adhearence to historical or tradional ascertions it comes through our knowledge and practice of the truth.

If you don't want to consider anything I say about this, then consider what Ellen White said.

"There is no excuse for anyone in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are withour error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation." CW 35.

[ClubV12]

Well I find it is unraveled.

Me too, and William Miller, Sister White, the pioneers and the Adventist Church agree.

Now in your case, Dr.Rich and wayfinder agree with your viewpoint. A couple of guys who completely reject Ellen White and the Adventist Church. Consider the company you are keeping Gibs.

The wicked will bind themselves into bundles to be burned....

I am always amazed when people who fight against the Church have the nerve to quote Ellen White!!!

More light will come, thats a given, no need for a quote. That light will be tested, you fail the test wayfinder, Gibs, Dr.Rich.

[wayfinder]

Well I find it is unraveled.

Me too, and William Miller, Sister White, the pioneers and the Adventist Church agree.

Now in your case, Dr.Rich and wayfinder agree with your viewpoint. A couple of guys who completely reject Ellen White and the Adventist Church. Consider the company you are keeping Gibs.

The wicked will bind themselves into bundles to be burned....

I am always amazed when people who fight against the Church have the nerve to quote Ellen White!!!

More light will come, thats a given, no need for a quote. That light will be tested, you fail the test wayfinder, Gibs, Dr.Rich.

I am not fighting against the church! I uphold the Seventh-day Adventist church. If I didn't care about this church I would leave, it would easy to do. Would you write the same response to Jesus if He were writing on this blog.

When Jesus came to earth, his "church" rejected Him and said "crucify". Should Jesus have joined another "faith"?

ClubV12, if I am wrong, show me where. So far all you have offered as evidence is, "this is what the church has always taught, therefore it is truth". If I did not care about you and the others I would move on, but I care.

[Gibs]

I believe this is on the subject to what we want to bring out. An EGW statement,

"After His ascension, our Saviour was to begin His work as our High Priest. Says Paul, "Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us." Hebrews 9:24.

As Christ's ministration was to consist of two great divisions, each occupying a period of time and having a distinctive place in the heavenly sanctuary, so the typical ministration consisted of two divisions, the daily and the yearly service, and to each a department of the tabernacle was devoted.

As Christ at His ascension appeared in the presence of God to plead His blood in behalf of penitent believers, so the priest in the daily ministration sprinkled the blood of the sacrifice in the holy place in the sinner's behalf." {PP 357.4}

Praise His High and Holy name He is still there offering incense and pleading His Blood in our behalf.

Re 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

Now who do you find that ANGEL to be?

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

...you can lead a horse to water...

[wayfinder]

...you can lead a horse to water...

..., unless he is thirsty!

John 7:37 Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink.38 "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'"

Revelation 22:17 NAS

The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say,"Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.

Only those who are thirsty will want to drink the water of life. Those who are not will refuse it.

[ClubV12]

All this professed piety, which is SO common around here, reminds me of the publican.

It's all hot air wayfinder, your just braggin' and boastin'.

[wayfinder]

All this professed piety, which is SO common around here, reminds me of the publican.

It's all hot air wayfinder, your just braggin' and boastin'.

Matthew 11:19 NAS

"The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds."

I have neither boasted nor have I bragged about anything; but if I were to boast...

Jeremiah 9:23,24 NAS

Thus says the LORD, "Let not a wise man boast of his wisdom, and let not the mighty man boast of his might, let not a rich man boast of his riches; but let him who boasts boast of this, that he understands and knows Me, that I am the LORD who exercises lovingkindness, justice and righteousness on earth; for I delight in these things," declares the LORD.

[Dr. Rich]

ClubV12, Do you work for and get paid by the SDA Church? Just wondering. If you will kindly show me where I have ever written written anything against the Adventist church I would appreciate it. The words of Jesus Christ are NOT againt the ADA church at all. As a long time old SDA member, I have seen people like you come and go, getting dissappointed when they do finaly discover the serious problems with EGW and their man made doctrines. My counsel is to keep your eyes ONLY on Jesus and abide in His words as people's opinions are many in number.

Ted Wilson was asked the question about EGW's writings over the bible and he said to always go with the bible as she would and has agreed with that counsel. All I am doing is going one step further and following the words of Jesus because He told His disciples that THEY (during their life time) could become deceived by those who say they are of Christ (been sent by Christ) but in truth they speak lies as if it were the truth. I will NEVER have that problem because I follow the words of Jesus only, give to us by His eyewitnesses.

[ClubV12]

Oh puuhhlease Dr.Rich, do you think you have everybody on this forum fooled? Gimme a break, your theology is loud and clear.

You don't even believe half of the New Testament is inspired! You reject Paul as an outright liar. You have virtually nothing in common with the Adventist Church, or for that matter, 90% of ANY Christian Church. At the very least Christian Churches, even the Catholics, accept the New Testament!

Your questions are laughable.

Dr.Rich says,

"...the serious problems with EGW and their man made doctrines."

A direct attack on the Adventist Church, you would have to be blind not to see that.

[Dr. Rich]

So tell me Club, who are the "Few" found in Rev. 3:4? If I am not on the same road as main stream christians and adventists, then I for sure can't be on the wide road to destruction! Make No mistake about it, the Adventist Church will NOT be found in heaven! Only those few and the wise virgins who both keep the ten commandments and the testimony of Jesus (His words) will be that very same two groups found in Rev. 5:9-10.

Jesus did not lie so you can trust what He said all the time.

[ClubV12]

So tell me Dr.Rich, how is it you can claim to be a Seventh-day Adventist and reject a large share of the authors of the New Testament, reject Ellen White as inspired, reject the Adventist doctrines concerning the 2,300 year prophecy and still go to an Adventist Church?