Difficult Verses?, For Whom?

[Lysimachus]

Lysimachus,

I don't need Bohr or Farris to teach me historicism as I've been over that road too many times and it won't "sail" as the scripture is too plain that there is even yet future things that are prophecied to come to pass. Historicists have been in the dark a lot of years now. The scroll is now unrolled and as always things of prophecy don't come to light before their time.

All need to pay attention to the hermeneutic of the given starting time of each apocolyptic prophecy. It is always there and sometime not easily found, especially by ones who don't want to and been taught of men rather than discern the scripture.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Every single person on the internet who cherishes there own private interpretation always thinks everyone else is in the dark. So I'm not surprised.

The fact is, however, historicism as withstood the test of time. And to abandon this foundation, which Sister White endorsed and the Lord showed her not one pin was to removed, is to subscribe to Jesuit Psuedepigraphal mythology.

The texts you have quoted--we do not interpret them as you do. And no, they are not "plain" as you make it. When I read them, it reads in a clear historicist fashion.

Historicism is a dying breed, and 98% of the Christian world is now Futurist. This in itself is a sign that it is false. Because the majority of Christians will be lost.

So you can suck up to Tim LaHaye, Jerry B. Jenkins, Hal Lindsay, Thomas Ice, Perry Stone, Jack Van Impe, and all those False Prophets all you want, but I shall have no part of it Gibs.

These men are enemies of God, and when you start espousing futuristic interpretations similar to them, you are giving impetus to the False Prophet which will provide Rome the necessary tools to bring about the New World Order.

Futurism is the most dangerous ideology on the planet, and I will do everything in my power to warn the world of its perfidious dangers--it is Counter Reformation Theology at its BEST!

Futurism was derived by the Hippolytus and Ireneaus from psuedepigraphal books of junk. Books of GARBAGE. Futurism is an ideology that stems from the Beliar Man myth, which in turn can be traced back to Persian Zoroastrian Dualism--and was fused with Judaism.

All of this has been soundly documented. The scriptures you site violate the day-year principle, and ignores the thousand and thousands of great reformers who gave their lives for this interpretation.

My book, "Vindicating the Historicist Hermeneutic" will show no mercy on your despicable Futuristic interpretations Gibs and Dr. Rich.

[Gibs]

Lysimachus,

I don't see that I do not stand on the foundations of Adventism. I do. What I see is that some steps need to be taken forward in the prophecy and has been needed a lot of years.

My name is no longer on the books but in my local church I didn't want it in it's books no longer. I do not need my name in any books here on earth although some may preach that but it is not true.

Let's look at the scriptures on these things not only the ones I bring up but others also. After all even a blind pig finds an acorn now and then.

These prophecies were not to be known yet to the pioneers but now we have no excuse and the same for the "daily" question is a strong indication more light was to come. It just wasn't the time yet for them to know and set out to the people.

I just suggest all look at the scriptures brought out and let the Holy Spirit be the guide as He has promised,

Notice of the underlined part of this verse,

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Did you notice not only into all truth BUT ALSO THINGS TO COME!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Dr. Rich]

Marcos my friend, no wonder you refuse to look at the facts IN THE BIBLE--you have a book out and can't change because of that! Look, we will not hold that against you, all we want is for you to look at the facts IN Revelation 8! Now show us in history where and when those trumpets blew? You can't because they have NOT been blown and the 144k have not yet been sealed. Have not you read that God tells the angels to hold back the 4 winds because they have not yet been sealed? We are right now in THAT time period!

All I ask Marcos, is that when you see the truth happen very soon that you will remember what Gibs wrote here. You are free to worship other gods such as Ellen and those Historical friends of yours, but we too are free to worship the one who authored the book of Revelation, Jesus Christ.

[ClubV12]

"I do not need my name in any books here on earth although some may preach that but it is not true."

Some of those that preach that would be Ellen White herself. She says we are NOT to withdraw from the body, we are to press together. In effect, Gibs, some people absolutely NEED to have "their name on the books" to make it clear to God, their fellow man, society just exactly where they stand.

DONT confuse this with the concept that in order to be saved you have to be an Adventist, you, I, most Adventist clearly recognize that is NOT the issue here.

The issue concerns those who HAVE BEEN members and for whatever reason, (someone kicked their dog and it made them angry), they have left the Church, removed their membership. Fine, good, the Church is better off without them, the world, this forum, society knows where they stand, outside the Church!

[Gail]

After all even a blind pig finds an acorn now and then.

I kinda like that! :)

[Lysimachus]

Marcos my friend, no wonder you refuse to look at the facts IN THE BIBLE--you have a book out and can't change because of that! Look, we will not hold that against you, all we want is for you to look at the facts IN Revelation 8! Now show us in history where and when those trumpets blew? You can't because they have NOT been blown and the 144k have not yet been sealed. Have not you read that God tells the angels to hold back the 4 winds because they have not yet been sealed? We are right now in THAT time period!

All I ask Marcos, is that when you see the truth happen very soon that you will remember what Gibs wrote here. You are free to worship other gods such as Ellen and those Historical friends of yours, but we too are free to worship the one who authored the book of Revelation, Jesus Christ.

Dr. Rich,

Your counsels bear no weight on me, as you reject portions of the Bible. I'm not interested in anything you have to say in relation to the interpretation of Bible prophecy while you reject the writings of Paul.

I will deal with Gibs, however, as he at least as not sunken so low as to give up the writings of Paul, Luke, and parts of Peter.

[Gibs]

ClubV12

Club I'm with a great body of believers and some are still going though the doors and most don't fault me as they know my testimony I'm well able to defend from scripture. Just because my name isn't on the books and I don't join in where the ones around me teach errors don't mean I'm not in His Church.

I know you would like for me to not be a discenter of things in the church but that can not and must not be the case as I must live with myself. It's each one duty to stand up against errors they see come in, all are his witnesses. What kind of disciple of His would you have me be? I must choose to please Him and discern for myself. I'm the one responsible not a pastor or conference president or any leading men.

This is the very reason error comes into any church, not enough stand up and let it be known of the error they see..

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

Gibs, you have chosen your path, so be it.

As for me and my house, I will serve the Lord where I am called to do that, within the Seventh-day Adventist Church. I agree with and support their theology and interpretation of scripture. I accept Ellen White as nothing less than an inspired messenger of God to the Seventh-day Adventist peoples.

You speak of the Church preaching error. The official doctrines and theology of the Adventist Church are well known. You do not agree with that theology on the point of the important 2,300 year prophecy. That is the path you have chosen,,,, so be it.

I have been asked, several times, if I work for the Conference or in some aspect for or with the Church. I do not hold ANY office of ANY kind in ANY local or Conference Church. I am simply one who has studied his way INTO the Church, nothing more.

[Gibs]

ClubV12, I do agree with the 2300 day prophecy and the 70 weeks cut off and Jesus crucified in the middle of that 70'th week. No problem there.

I do not put in the 1290 and 1335 as being in that time frame, the text of Dan 12: will not uphold it. The following first two verses knock that idea out to fit but only at the time of the end.

What time frame is it that these verses come to fruitition?,

Da 12:1 ¶ And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Da 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

Well I do understand your delima with the 1290 and the 1335 segments of time with that prophecy. There are a couple of reason why I cannot entertain any alternatives to the current position the Adventist Church has taken on these.

The most important of which is Ellen Whites statement that the 1335, that is passed. Now SOME take that quote (which I only briefly touched on here as I suspect you are familiar with it) and use it to conclude exactly the opposite! That what she REALLY meant was that the 1335 was NOT passed! A careful study of her position on the 2,300 year prophecy in general and the 1335 in particular just does not support that position. Quite the opposite in fact, she really DID mean the 1335 was literally in the past, over, done with.

I have tried to wrest the 1290 from the 2300 as a separate time frame as well, OR, as a possible "dual fulfillment" in literal days. I just can't find a connection, I am forced, from logic and reason to rule out a "dual application" all together. Which only leaves one alternative, that it didn't happen yet at all. I just can't support that idea. The 1290 and in PARTICULAR and ESPECIALLY the 1260 must remain anchor points in the 2300. I cannot find an alternative.

And believe me, I have studied MULTIPLE charts and aspects of the various versions of "1335 Futurists". Always, 100%, they are Adventists, professed Adventists or EX Adventists only. No other Church or group shares this view, it is uniquely of Adventist origin.

Another reason and perhaps the most important one is that I believe very strongly in the need for us to "press together". When my ideas do not line up with the brethren, I need to lay them to one side and wait upon the Lord to reveal any potential new light (new light in most cases is a new understanding of OLD light, by the way). The Lord does not reveal new light to one man. Because it is uniquely Adventist in this case I do believe it will be revealed not just to me, but to others WITHIN the body of believers.

Tim Roosenberg is taking the correct steps in his ideas, opening them up to discussion. Keeping a humble spirit. He does not say, "If I am wrong, then PROVE IT." He says, "Perhaps I AM wrong, let us reason together and investigate this". Let the brethren consider the matter and see if they see the same thing. And so far, they DO! I concur, I have studied closely his ideas, they make sense, MUCH more sense than the confusion ever found in the various versions of "1335 Futurists". Frankly, the confusion is SO great, the variables SO pronounced, the whole concept is truly "Babylon" as I see it. To much secrecy, to much hidden, bring it out into the light. Let the brethren consider the matter. But no, pride has gotten in the way, those involved INSIST they MUST be believed or they will leave the Church. That is not the spirit of the Lord in this matter.

[wayfinder]

Also the 1335 is a time period that, the start of which is what is important.

Daniel 12:12 "How blessed is he who keeps waiting and attains to the 1,335 days!

Transliterated Word

Naga

TDNT Entry

TWOT - 1293

to reach, extend, attain, arrive, come

I believe this (start of the 1335) is when the "Midnight cry" will be given.

Revelation 3:10 'Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.11'I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one will take your crown.

This text also is a commendation for those who waited. It is very likely they waited for the start of the 1335 days.

[ClubV12]

I have considered the meaning of that, here's one possible take on it. Blessed is he that waits. There is something unique about that group of people who wait, are alive when it comes or were alive as it passed.

Sister White tells us that ALL (of the Saints, not literally all people) who have died UNDER the third angels message will be resurrected just BEFORE the second coming (a special resurrection). They will see with their own eyes His gradual appearance as a small black cloud "about the size of a fist" appearing in the heavens and growing lighter and more brilliant as it nears the earth.

Well what a blessing is THAT!!! Blessed indeed are those who have died under the third angels message, blessed indeed are those who have waited for the time of the end.

One other thought, as this group is raised at the very last moment of time (DURING the seventh plague?) and are now alive, they would qualify for that esteemed group of 144,000 living Saints. Perhaps not everyone, but SOME among them, like Sister White for instance?

[Dr. Rich]

Also the 1335 is a time period that, the start of which is what is important.

Daniel 12:12 "How blessed is he who keeps waiting and attains to the 1,335 days!

Transliterated Word

Naga

TDNT Entry

TWOT - 1293

to reach, extend, attain, arrive, come

I believe this (start of the 1335) is when the "Midnight cry" will be given.

Revelation 3:10 'Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.11'I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one will take your crown.

This text also is a commendation for those who waited. It is very likely they waited for the start of the 1335 days.

Hmmm, OR, if not at the beginning, then perhaps the blessing will be for those who did the waiting for the full 1,335 days and will get it at the end? We shall see....

[Dr. Rich]

I have considered the meaning of that, here's one possible take on it. Blessed is he that waits. There is something unique about that group of people who wait, are alive when it comes or were alive as it passed.

Sister White tells us that ALL (of the Saints, not literally all people) who have died UNDER the third angels message will be resurrected just BEFORE the second coming (a special resurrection). They will see with their own eyes His gradual appearance as a small black cloud "about the size of a fist" appearing in the heavens and growing lighter and more brilliant as it nears the earth.

Well what a blessing is THAT!!! Blessed indeed are those who have died under the third angels message, blessed indeed are those who have waited for the time of the end.

One other thought, as this group is raised at the very last moment of time (DURING the seventh plague?) and are now alive, they would qualify for that esteemed group of 144,000 living Saints. Perhaps not everyone, but SOME among them, like Sister White for instance?

I too have thought about this and it sure would be interesting if EGW's likness would appear by a demon to deceive many Advetists too. (Yes, I have read what EGW has written)

BUT for what the angels are told to hold back the 4 winds of strife untill ALL of the bondservants are sealed (144k). This must mean that the time of trouble can't even start without first having the 144k sealed. Of course the third angels message happens at a much later time, AFTER the time of trouble has started. Those attempting to do the angels work now have jumped the gun.

[ClubV12]

Of course when the special resurrection happens it won't matter who is faking who about what, it's all been decided well before then anyway.

I'll go with Sister Whites take on the 144K, silence is golden on this subject. We will know "soon enough" who will comprise that group.

[Dr. Rich]

I don't want to have anything to do with EGW and Paul! I am on the side of the bondservants.

[ClubV12]

"I don't want to have anything to do with EGW and Paul!"

Well thats about as clear as it can get where you stand with the Adventist Church. So noted.

[Dr. Rich]

ClubV12, It then appears that you are relating the Adventist Church as one following Paul's and EGW's words and not the words of Jesus. Is that how you feel about this issue? If you don't believe that the words of Jesus trump all other's words, then you are leaving yourself open for deception.

I don't see it that way--I firmly believe the Adventist church is right now the KOH on this earth and they are spiritually sleeping because of those deceiving soothing words have made them feel secure. When push comes to shove, only those who match to a tee, those found in Rev. 12:17 will become brothers and sisters of Jesus. The foolish will join the crowd called the Nations of the world (Kingdoms of the world). Anyway, that's my take on it.

[ClubV12]

Dr.Rich, you pick and choose what you think are the words of Jesus.

I follow ALL the words of Jesus, as manifested in His messengers, His prophets and spokes persons. Paul's inspired writings are no less the words of Jesus than Jesus Himself. He is simply speaking through His chosen vessel, Moses, Paul, Ellen White, who ever that spokes person or messenger may be.

[Dr. Rich]

And just how do you know those other words from others are really the truth? What is your test?

[ClubV12]

To the law and the testimony, prove all things, hold fast that which is good. ALL scripture is inspired. And last but not least, spiritual things are spiritually discerned.

[Dr. Rich]

Where did you get that from? Is that what you made up? Please give us a reference so we can check it out.

[phkrause]

So tell me how you know that the words of Jesus are actually his words? Do you know for a fact that the writers wrote his words and didn't make them up either?