Difficult Verses?, For Whom?

[Dr. Rich]

Simple my friend, I take Jesus at His word when He warned us about two different foundation to build one's house of belief upon in Matthew 7:24-27. Jesus SAID: "Therefore, everyone who hears these words of MINE (not Pauls or Lukes) and ACTS upon them may be compared to a wise man who built his house upon a rock."!

Jesus had just spoke about the narrow gate verses the wide gate (speaking of those who profess to be believers of Christ only--and not the whole world), (see vs. 13-23) and also warned them of false prophets in sheeps clothing (you could not tell outwardly) and even that MANY would say "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name.....?" But then Jesus would tell them that He never knew them and tell them to DEPART because these people practice LAWLESSNESS (meaning they have heard the words of Paul saying salvation is by grace alone and not by works).

So my friend, do you want to be wise, or choose to follow after the words of others? Your choice, as I made the choice to act upon the words of Jesus ONLY! For this, NO one can rightfully kick me out of the SDA church, for that is what Jesus said to do.

[ClubV12]

Chuckle, snort, man you are living in a serious fantasy world.

[Dr. Rich]

I suppose it would be for you, but for me it's real and wonderful!

[12tribes]

I never said nor inferred that Sister White was either historicist, preterist or futurist. She, and us, build on the foundation already laid.

Gib says,

"All of Daniel Chapter 12: is literal time prophecy, so these days are not "time", year for a day, but are literal solar days."

This is NOT consistent with the foundation of the Adventist Church or Sister Whites theology. Here you make a serious and major mistake. You are not building on, you are tearing down.

Yes new light does not take away from the old it expands on it.

[Dr. Rich]

Truthful new light will lead one back to the words of Jesus given to us by His eyewitnesses only. That is the true gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven.

[Dr. Rich]

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

I never said nor inferred that Sister White was either historicist, preterist or futurist. She, and us, build on the foundation already laid.

Gib says,

"All of Daniel Chapter 12: is literal time prophecy, so these days are not "time", year for a day, but are literal solar days."

This is NOT consistent with the foundation of the Adventist Church or Sister Whites theology. Here you make a serious and major mistake. You are not building on, you are tearing down.

Yes new light does not take away from the old it expands on it.

12Tribes, please read Matthew 25:7 to see how wrong your opinion really is. Trimming the lamp means to cut away all of the OLD wick. One must get rid of old clothes in order to receive new clothes.

So tell me 12Tribes, do you still believe the earth is flat? Why not?

[wayfinder]

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

I never said nor inferred that Sister White was either historicist, preterist or futurist. She, and us, build on the foundation already laid.

Gib says,

"All of Daniel Chapter 12: is literal time prophecy, so these days are not "time", year for a day, but are literal solar days."

This is NOT consistent with the foundation of the Adventist Church or Sister Whites theology. Here you make a serious and major mistake. You are not building on, you are tearing down.

Yes new light does not take away from the old it expands on it.

Matthew 9:16 "But no one puts a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment; for the patch pulls away from the garment, and a worse tear results. 17"Nor do people put new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the wineskins burst, and the wine pours out and the wineskins are ruined; but they put new wine into fresh wineskins, and both are preserved."

No one puts new light/truth together with the old for the same reason.

[Gibs]

The following verses say it all, none need to wonder if it is past or future,

Da 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

Da 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

If we don't abide by the time of the prophecy clue it won't fit the "building".

How many think the "daily ministration" of our High Priest is over? I certainly hope we are in unity on that.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Dr. Rich]

Has the censor already been thrown down to this earth?

[ClubV12]

Whew, Gib's you are indeed profoundly mistaken in your interpretation of prophecy. Your not even close on Daniel 12. With such wild ideas that are so far removed from Adventist theology it becomes more clear why you left the Church.

It still remains a mystery why you fight against the Church, but that is another issue.

[Gibs]

Club, You are not reading the proofs I set forth,

You better go back and read my last post, as it cannot be denied what the scripture says.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[12tribes]

12Tribes, please read Matthew 25:7 to see how wrong your opinion really is. Trimming the lamp means to cut away all of the OLD wick. One must get rid of old clothes in order to receive new clothes.

So tell me 12Tribes, do you still believe the earth is flat? Why not?

[Dr. Rich]

Whew, Gib's you are indeed profoundly mistaken in your interpretation of prophecy. Your not even close on Daniel 12. With such wild ideas that are so far removed from Adventist theology it becomes more clear why you left the Church.

It still remains a mystery why you fight against the Church, but that is another issue.

Speaking about Daniel 12, how come so many Adventists stake their soul upon those who are long dead when it is clear that God was telling Daniel that the truth regarding end time prophecy could NOT be known by anyone who was NOT living in the last generation--because it ONLY pertaines to them?

Anyone notice WHO Jesus was giving ALL of the information to in Revelation 1:1? It is ONLY the bond servants, those who are found to be the first fruits, the 144,000. (Rev. 7:3 and 14:3-5) Being purchased means being bonded. This is why NONE of the wicked will understand, but only those with insight, the wise bondservants.

[ClubV12]

Gibs, I could read your post a hundred times, you would still be wrong, as is Dr.Rich, profoundly wrong on your interpretation of Daniel 12.

I might as well consider the counsel of a Scientologist or Jehovah Witness for an interpretation as consider your interpretation. You have no light to shed on prophecy, nor does Dr.Rich.

Daniel 12:11, that is passed, it has ended, we are now living in the time of the end. Which cannot be numbered or have a date placed on it for it's termination.

[Dr. Rich]

Hmmm, seems to me that God was absolutly right about Daniel 12:10!

[Gibs]

No ClubV12,

You just won't acknowledge the "daily ministration" of Jesus our High Priest is still going on or we wouldn't be here for long at all.

When He quits it and stands up and says it is done, then it is a matter of but a very short time and it could be called "wrapped up".

Da 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Deny it if you want but it is very plain and a fifth grader could understand it.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

Gib's has another random thought,

"You just won't acknowledge the "daily ministration" of Jesus our High Priest is still going on or we wouldn't be here for long at all."

Once again, I have no idea where you came up with that thought. The fact the Jesus daily ministers for us, on our behalf, as our High Priest is a fundamental doctrine of Seventh-day Adventists. I not only acknowledge it, the whole planet would be "toast" without it! I have no idea what your point is by posting that statement. Gib's you are seriously confused on these issues.

[Dr. Rich]

But that will all end when the censor is thrown down. That has not yet happened.

[Gibs]

ClubV12,

Man what do I have to do to show you that His Ministry is to be taken away. You get it, I know you do, you are just being evasive and that is not honest. Read please,

Da 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

The ultimate transgression takes it away,

Mr 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

Daniel 12:11 started in 508 AD. It was interupted 1290 YEARS later in 1798. As the wound was healed the abomination continued the work it started in 508 AD. Namely "man" setting himself up as one who can forgive sin. Replacing or counterfitting the roll of our High Priest, daily working on our behalf.

Soon the abomination will once again be at full power and command the entire world to "worship" him or die. 508 AD was just when it began, it will continue until Christ comes again.

The "dishonesty" you refer to is attempting to teach others the false doctrines you hold while professing to be a Sevent-day Adventist. You are not, it's that simple.

[Gibs]

ClubV12,

That is a pretty shaky explanation that don't fit the context of the chapter.

Just the first two verses prove that! They show it is finish time!

Da 12:1 ¶ And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Da 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Da 12:1 ¶ And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Da 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Da 12:1 ¶ And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Da 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

[Lysimachus]

The "taking away of the daily" is in reference to the removal of the understanding of Christ's High Priestly ministry in the minds of the people.

Hebrews 10:23 - "Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"

The "taking away of the daily" in 8:11, 11:31, and 12:11 is homogeneous with "and the place of his sanctuary was cast down" (8:11b).

Notice that the sanctuary itself was not cast down, but the "place", or "foundation" was cast down---meaning, that the Papacy intercepts the understanding of coming to God alone through Jesus Christ for Him to intercede for our sins.

The "tamid" was truly "taken away", meaning...the knowledge of it was taken away...from the minds of the people.

It's kind of sad to thin that Gibs has not read these arguments before. Heik's does a profound job at demonstrating this profound Biblical truth in his AD 508 Source Book and The "Daily" Source Book.

But you see, people like Gibs refuse to buy these books. They are UNWILLING to spend the MONEY, because they don't like the idea that they have to buy a book that goes against their cherished, private interpretations, that have been so thoroughly dismantled in these books, I do not even know where to begin!

[Lysimachus]

Gibs,

First of all, you are spamming our forum with your Futurist propaganda. Don't you have anything else better to do?

Secondly, your interpretations are not in harmony with the Bible, Ellen White, or our Adventist pioneers, OR the Reformers.

Thirdly, it is important for you to understand just how Jesuit and deadly these Futuristic interpretations are in this link here:

Futurism's Incredible Journey - by Pastor Stephen Bohr

Futurism: The Counterfeit Prophecy - by D.S. Farris

These two articles will lay Futurism bare naked and expose all its problems.

When we go out to the world to expose Jesuit Counter Futuristic Interpretations, Gibs, you will be unsuccessful because the Futurists will think you are nuts due to your inconsistency. The moment they discover that you do not consider the "time, times, and dividing of times" of Daniel 7 the SAME as the 42 months and 1260 days of Revelation 11, 12, and 13, they will think you're nuts and inconsistent, and will no longer consider your interpretation.

We historicists are consistent. We take into consideration the PAST, the PRESENT, and the FUTURE. There is a FUTURE tribulation, the Time of Trouble. But there is NO evidence that any time period is associated with this future Time of Trouble.

[Dr. Rich]

Gibs, it's useless to use facts for people who have faith as their belief. Our local SDA school bible teacher teaches the kids that Jesus could come at any time yet the kids arn't as stupid as he thinks--as they KNOW the 144k have not yet been sealed and a third of the trees have not yet been burned up. Jesus didn't lie.

When the real two witnesses began their testimony, those who have been deceived into believing the OT and NT was the two witnesses, will be the ones calling for the death of them because they believe the real two witnesses are blaspheming--just as they did to Jesus.

Gibs, you have provided FACTS yet they can't understand, probably because prophecy found in Rev. 2:18-25 was/is the truth.

[Gibs]

Lysimachus,

I don't need Bohr or Farris to teach me historicism as I've been over that road too many times and it won't "sail" as the scripture is too plain that there is even yet future things that are prophecied to come to pass. Historicists have been in the dark a lot of years now. The scroll is now unrolled and as always things of prophecy don't come to light before their time.

All need to pay attention to the hermeneutic of the given starting time of each apocolyptic prophecy. It is always there and sometime not easily found, especially by ones who don't want to and been taught of men rather than discern the scripture.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.