Moderators John317 Posted February 22, 2012 Moderators Posted February 22, 2012 “Protestants little know what they are doing when they propose to accept the aid of Rome in the work of Sunday exaltation. While they are bent upon the accomplishment of their purpose, Rome is aiming to re-establish her power, to recover her lost supremacy. Let the principle once be established in the United States that the church may employ or control the power of the state; that religious observances may be enforced by secular laws; in short, that the authority of church and state is to dominate the conscience, and the triumph of Rome in this country is assured.” The Great Controversy, 581. I am thankful and gratified that I have received many special alerts from many of you regarding the remarkable surge of interest in Sunday legislation in Europe. So here is a summary of what has been, and will be, happening in the near future: EUROPEAN SUNDAY ALLIANCE is calling for a “European Day for a Work free Sunday” on March 4, 2012, to be downloaded in German, French, and English. “In times of financial and economic crisis when more and more social and employment rights are coming under pressure, the work-free Sunday is a clear and visible demonstration that the people and our societies are not dependent solely on work and the economy. “We believe that all citizens of the European Union are entitled to benefit from decent working hours that, as a matter of principle, exclude working late evenings, nights, public holidays and Sundays. Only essential services should operate on Sundays. “ Today, legislation and practices now in place at EU and Member State levels need to be more protective of the health, safety and dignity of everyone and should more assertively promote the reconciliation of professional and family life. We believe that social cohesion in European citizenship should be reinforced. Therefore, the Alliance calls on members, supporters and all citizens to make our common demand visible on Sunday, 4 March 2012!” www.allianz-fuer-den-freien-sonntag.de and http://www.sonntagsallianz-bayern.de. COMMECE BISHOPS’ DECLARATION on Social market Economy defending the protection of work-free Sundays in the EU (January 20, 2012): "Today, our task lies in protecting ourselves from a scenario where the market and its inner logic manage to encroach on all areas of life and hold them captive. There are shared and qualitative needs which cannot be satisfied by the market, particularly in relation to the family. This is why it is the task of government to provide guaranteed market-free times and living spaces where people can search for ways to meet these needs.17 It is right that market activity is restricted on official public holidays and Sundays, because on those days, for national, cultural or religious reasons, peace and quiet and time to collect one’s thoughts take precedence over economic activities." www.comece.eu GERMAN FEDERAL INSTITUTE: Longer Working hours impact Health. The German Federal Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (BAuA) published a study conducted by Mrs Anna Wirtz on the impact of longer working hours on health and Safety of Workers. The study shows a clear impact on Worker's health and safety. “TIME CONFERENCE” of the German Sunday alliance gathered on February 15 on the topic “Sunday is our right.” It unveiled new legal tools for Sunday protection, new action possibilities and will offer an occasion to exchange with crucial supporters and partner organization. INTERNATIONAL CHRISTIAN UNION OF BUSINESS EXECUTIVES welcome the Employer's association UNIAPAC into its membership. This Union of Business Executives is a federation of associations, an international meeting place for Christian Business Leaders and its goal is to promote, in the light of the Christian Social Teachings, a vision and a deployment of Corporate Social Responsibility serving people and the common good of the World. GERMAN OLYMPIC SPORTS CONFEDERATION (non-governmental) joins the European Sunday Alliance. This umbrella organization of German sport was founded on May 20, 2006, resulting from the merger of the German Sports Confederation (DSB) and the National Olympic Committee for Germany. The DOSB stands for performance, health, joy of living and the conveyance of values. “Only a well-protected common work-free day per week enables citizens to enjoy full participation in sports.” OK, nothing secretive or conspiratorial about Europe’s hope for a work-free Sunday in the immediate future. Purpose: not to make Sunday a “holy” day but a holiday from work, a play day for the “joy of living.” HOW MANY CAN READ THE FUTURE? R&H, Aug. 5, 1902: "Those who place themselves under God's control, to be led and guided by Him, will CATCH THE STEADY TREND OF EVENTS ordained by Him to take place.” John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
ClubV12 Posted February 22, 2012 Posted February 22, 2012 "....will CATCH THE STEADY TREND OF EVENTS..." Profound! Good post John317, thanks for that.
Dr. Rich Posted February 22, 2012 Posted February 22, 2012 Never will happen--too many Muslims and Jews to even allow that type of thing to happen today!
Members phkrause Posted February 23, 2012 Members Posted February 23, 2012 Well to better think again. As long as the Muslims are not required to worship on Sabbath they will have no problem complying. The Jews will be in the same Boat as all other Sabbath keepers. When that Sunday Law comes down, we will see many Jews accept Jesus, and for that matter many Muslims also. phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
Lysimachus Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 Never will happen--too many Muslims and Jews to even allow that type of thing to happen today! When Satan works miracles, calling fire down from heaven, and healing the sick, you don't think the Jews and Muslims world-over will welcome him as the great Cosmic Christ? Think again. ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf
Moderators LynnDel Posted February 23, 2012 Moderators Posted February 23, 2012 History indicates many Jews converted to the catholic version of christianity, often during times of persecution, to save their lives and the lives of their children. I have a Jewish friend whose surviving extended family converted, some staying catholic until their natural death, and some becoming agnostic because they felt deserted by God, whose existence they began to question. Not everyone has the strength of faith needed in times of personal danger to maintain their connection to what they have been taught is true. Do we? LD
miz3 Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 I thought the "Sunday" government mandate was to start in the United States and the whole world was to follow the US lead. What I see here is the European lead. Could Ellen White have been wrong? Maybe the OP is asserting that Ellen White was wrong about the US being the lead in "Sunday government mandate".
Moderators John317 Posted February 23, 2012 Author Moderators Posted February 23, 2012 I thought the "Sunday" government mandate was to start in the United States and the whole world was to follow the US lead. What I see here is the European lead. What Ellen White wrote doesn't preclude Europe's having Sunday laws before the US adopts a National Sunday Law. What it shows is that the Catholic Church is pushing for Sunday laws. The papacy is pushing for Sunday laws both in the USA and in Europe. The USA is a superpower and as such it will be its leadership that the whole world will eventually follow. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
ClubV12 Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 "Could Ellen White have been wrong? " Not a chance! The prophecy and the interpretation are sure. The USA will lead out in this test soon to come the world. And it WON'T be the Senate, House and POTUS that do it, it will be a grass roots movement of the PEOPLE DEMANDING a Sunday law. A getting back to God "movement" for God and Country, because they have lost faith in everything from the Government. Including the Constitution itself, the people won't care about that, or who the President is or whatever. The Nation will be SO "messed up" with strife that SOMETHING has to be done. Think of it as a "martial law" mentality. The Senate, House, POTUS will be forced to "change times and laws" lest the "people" start burning down the Capital if they don't. Now this scenario COULD have happened in WW1, or WW2, perhaps earlier in USA history. I don't know that it will happen with THIS current economic crisis or the next one or the next world war. But it WILL happen in God's time and according to His schedule. The prophecy is sure.
miz3 Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 Originally Posted By: miz3 I thought the "Sunday" government mandate was to start in the United States and the whole world was to follow the US lead. What I see here is the European lead. What Ellen White wrote doesn't preclude Europe's having Sunday laws before the US adopts a National Sunday Law. What it shows is that the Catholic Church is pushing for Sunday laws. The papacy is pushing for Sunday laws both in the USA and in Europe. The USA is a superpower and as such it will be its leadership that the whole world will eventually follow. The US is no superpower under the current President's Administration. Europe has more influence then we have.
Dr. Rich Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich Never will happen--too many Muslims and Jews to even allow that type of thing to happen today! When Satan works miracles, calling fire down from heaven, and healing the sick, you don't think the Jews and Muslims world-over will welcome him as the great Cosmic Christ? Think again. Lysimachus, you have NO clue my friend! I have been attempting to help you, but you don't want to be taught a thing. Just don't put your "head in the sand" waiting for 'it' to happen. What the 2nd Beast will do when he appears at the start of the last 5 months (new moons) of this earth's history, is spelled out in Revelation. The Mark of the beast is the opposite of being sealed by God and that happens during the first 37 new moons, so only the wicked will have to worry about the Mark of the beast. Since the 144k have not yet been sealed, the time of trouble can't start yet.
Moderators John317 Posted February 23, 2012 Author Moderators Posted February 23, 2012 Never will happen--too many Muslims and Jews to even allow that type of thing to happen today! The prophecies predict major changes, many catastrophies, and the appearance of Satan, before the end. All these will have the effect of changing how people think about a lot of issues. There have been many prophecies that appeared to have no chance of happening. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
miz3 Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich Never will happen--too many Muslims and Jews to even allow that type of thing to happen today! The prophecies predict major changes, many catastrophies, and the appearance of Satan, before the end. All these will have the effect of changing how people think about a lot of issues. There have been many prophecies that appeared to have no chance of happening. I know its in Ellen White, but where in the Bible and the Bible only does it say that the United States will make a Sunday Law and then force the rest of the world to do the same in order to make the RCC/Pope the ruler of the whole world. I am sure that the Bible says this in the clearest and plainest of language because such a Fact is most important. Please provide Book, Chapter and verse where this plain FACT exists and is not "hidden"/"disguised" so that anyone could say this is the application. Please cite the Bible which states this FACT so as to leave no doubt. Can you do it?
Lysimachus Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 I know its in Ellen White, but where in the Bible and the Bible only does it say that the United States will make a Sunday Law and then force the rest of the world to do the same in order to make the RCC/Pope the ruler of the whole world. I am sure that the Bible says this in the clearest and plainest of language because such a Fact is most important. Please provide Book, Chapter and verse where this plain FACT exists and is not "hidden"/"disguised" so that anyone could say this is the application. Please cite the Bible which states this FACT so as to leave no doubt. Can you do it? Don't be a goofball. If the Bible said, "The United States will make a Sunday Law and that's the Mark of the Beast", do you think the prophecy could happen? Of course not. God would have shot himself in the foot. God gives things in symbols, and only the "wise shall understand". God wants us to do our homework. Our research. Revelation is a book of symbols. If you just lay out the prophecy in plain language, you end up nullifying the prophecy. It just doesn't work that way. Everyone in the whole world would be opposed to it. They have to think that the United States is not in the Bible and that the Sunday Law is not in the Bible in order for them to enforce it. It has to be encoded in a way so that only those who are seekers for truth will find it. Those who are hungry and thirsty. Where does the Bible say it? Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by [the means of] those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number [is] Six hundred threescore [and] six. Believe it or not Miz3, the United States is in here, the Sunday Law mark is here, and the Papacy Beast is here. I know you refuse to see it, but that's just what's coming. ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf
Moderators John317 Posted February 23, 2012 Author Moderators Posted February 23, 2012 ... where in the Bible and the Bible only does it say that the United States will make a Sunday Law and then force the rest of the world to do the same in order to make the RCC/Pope the ruler of the whole world. If you are looking for the names "USA" or "Catholic Church" or "papacy" or "Sunday law," you won't find them-- of course. Neither is the name "Jesus Christ" found in the prophecies. Remember that the prophecies are written in symbols for a good reason. Anyone could name a country "the United States" if that name were in the Bible, but the mere fact of the name doesn't prove it's the country prophecied in the Bible. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
miz3 Posted February 24, 2012 Posted February 24, 2012 Originally Posted By: miz3 I know its in Ellen White, but where in the Bible and the Bible only does it say that the United States will make a Sunday Law and then force the rest of the world to do the same in order to make the RCC/Pope the ruler of the whole world. I am sure that the Bible says this in the clearest and plainest of language because such a Fact is most important. Please provide Book, Chapter and verse where this plain FACT exists and is not "hidden"/"disguised" so that anyone could say this is the application. Please cite the Bible which states this FACT so as to leave no doubt. Can you do it? Don't be a goofball. If the Bible said, "The United States will make a Sunday Law and that's the Mark of the Beast", do you think the prophecy could happen? Of course not. God would have shot himself in the foot. God gives things in symbols, and only the "wise shall understand". God wants us to do our homework. Our research. Revelation is a book of symbols. If you just lay out the prophecy in plain language, you end up nullifying the prophecy. It just doesn't work that way. Everyone in the whole world would be opposed to it. They have to think that the United States is not in the Bible and that the Sunday Law is not in the Bible in order for them to enforce it. It has to be encoded in a way so that only those who are seekers for truth will find it. Those who are hungry and thirsty. Where does the Bible say it? Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by [the means of] those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number [is] Six hundred threescore [and] six. Believe it or not Miz3, the United States is in here, the Sunday Law mark is here, and the Papacy Beast is here. I know you refuse to see it, but that's just what's coming. 1. Where in the Bible does it say that God wants us to do our research? Book, Chapter, and verse please. 2. When God prophesied that a certain king of Israel would die he died, God did not disguise this prophecy in symbols. When God prophesied that Ahab/Jezebel would die and the dogs would lap up their blood there were no symbols. Again the prophesies came true even though they were prophesied way ahead of time. God prophesied that Babylon would fall to Media Persia, and Media Persia would fall to Greece and Greece would fall to Rome. God prophesied these hundreds of years before they actually took place. God was clear about what the symbols meant. Thus, God would clear about the symbols of the United States and the Sunday Law and the Bible/God is not the least little bit of a hint that the symbols you cite are the US, the Papacy, the Sunday Law. You see God is explicit in Daniel but no such explicit interpretation which you bring to the table is explicit in Revelation therefore your Ellen Whitest interpretation is kaput and does not exist. Yet you call me a groofball, Ha Ha Ha. It appears that you have no basis on which to hang your human interpretation of those prophecies except your imagination.
miz3 Posted February 24, 2012 Posted February 24, 2012 Originally Posted By: miz3 ... where in the Bible and the Bible only does it say that the United States will make a Sunday Law and then force the rest of the world to do the same in order to make the RCC/Pope the ruler of the whole world. If you are looking for the names "USA" or "Catholic Church" or "papacy" or "Sunday law," you won't find them-- of course. Neither is the name "Jesus Christ" found in the prophecies. Remember that the prophecies are written in symbols for a good reason. Anyone could name a country "the United States" if that name were in the Bible, but the mere fact of the name doesn't prove it's the country prophecied in the Bible. That is soooooooooooo weak. Surely you can do better than that. That is not a defense. I could make up any interpretation and then say what you just said to make it true. That is no proof/legitimacy of your position. Come on John317 lets prove it from the Bible and the Bible only or admit that the only way you believe this is true is because Ellen White says so. Ellen White was a good believer in the Protestant Reformation and as such she believed these things you are saying to be true. The FACT is they are not Biblical.
ClubV12 Posted February 24, 2012 Posted February 24, 2012 Chuckle, snort... Here we have a fine example of the "silver platter syndrome", may I present: "...but where in the Bible and the Bible only does it say that the United States will make a Sunday Law ..."
Dr. Rich Posted February 24, 2012 Posted February 24, 2012 Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich Never will happen--too many Muslims and Jews to even allow that type of thing to happen today! The prophecies predict major changes, many catastrophies, and the appearance of Satan, before the end. All these will have the effect of changing how people think about a lot of issues. There have been many prophecies that appeared to have no chance of happening. And??? Know what I don't like about the stupid sunday law business...that someone had the nerve to ADD something to the words found in Revelation!
Dr. Rich Posted February 24, 2012 Posted February 24, 2012 Welcome back Miz3. We all know that the bible and especially the book of Revelation does not say anything about a national sunday law--so let it go as you can't change a turnup into an orange. You know, EGW will excape the warning about not adding or subtracting from Revelation because she is dead and the plagues will not affect those who are dead. But man, I sure wouldn't want to be alive when they hit the fan IF I believed, practiced and said or wrote those things will happen, when they can't.
Moderators John317 Posted February 24, 2012 Author Moderators Posted February 24, 2012 miz3, how does it feel to be in perfect agreement on so many things with someone who teaches that 2/3 of the NT was planted there by the devil, and teaches that Peter was deceived by the devil on the Day of Pentecost into thinking the tongue of fire was the Holy Spirit? John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Dr. Rich Posted February 24, 2012 Posted February 24, 2012 John317 wrote: "Neither is the name "Jesus Christ" found in the prophecies." Try Rev. 22:16 John. Jesus is the true author of Revelations, so almost everywhere you see an "I", that is Jesus Christ. And NOT everything is a symbol John, please lets not go leading people astray as it appears the one found in Rev. 2:18-26 did/does. I have no problems with people who say 'it appears' or 'it looks like to me', but to go and state something found or not found in Revelation as a fact and it's not there or is there, then I get a little bit edgy about it.
Dr. Rich Posted February 24, 2012 Posted February 24, 2012 miz3, how does it feel to be in perfect agreement on so many things with someone who teaches that 2/3 of the NT was planted there by the devil, and teaches that Peter was deceived by the devil on the Day of Pentecost into thinking the tongue of fire was the Holy Spirit? John317, I guess you did not take heed to the warning given to people taking jabs at others. Please be good.
Dr. Rich Posted February 24, 2012 Posted February 24, 2012 marcos, you wrote: "Don't be a goofball. If the Bible said, "The United States will make a Sunday Law and that's the Mark of the Beast", do you think the prophecy could happen? Of course not. God would have shot himself in the foot. God gives things in symbols, and only the "wise shall understand". Very good my friend! But you went and messed it up by saying matter of factly, that the United States is there..I take you mean, "YOU THINK it's there.".
Lysimachus Posted February 24, 2012 Posted February 24, 2012 marcos, you wrote: "Don't be a goofball. If the Bible said, "The United States will make a Sunday Law and that's the Mark of the Beast", do you think the prophecy could happen? Of course not. God would have shot himself in the foot. God gives things in symbols, and only the "wise shall understand". Very good my friend! But you went and messed it up by saying matter of factly, that the United States is there..I take you mean, "YOU THINK it's there.". I am 100% confident that the Lamb-Like Beast is the United States. Perhaps if there was no such thing as Ellen White, I probably wouldn't have as much confidence as I do. But I am 100% confident that she was an inspired prophet. Therefore, that makes me 100% confident that her confirmation of J.N. Andrew's and Uriah Smith's discovery that the United States is the nation symbolized by the Lamb-Like Beast is correct. :) ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf
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