Adam's Nature

[Gibs]

Adam's nature, did it change after his disobedience? Did his sinless flesh then become sinful flesh? Then what natures did Jesus Christ have when He was on earth as a man since He too was born of woman, of the linage of David?

Thought some might like to comment on those 3 things and your ideas and why. I've seen some comments some have made with varying positions, so let us see a few.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Dr. Rich]

God never made 'sinful flesh' and flesh is just that, flesh. There is nothing sinful about the flesh--it's what one does with the flesh, not the flesh itself. Gnostics all believed that the spirit was good while the flesh was evil. Paul also taught this. When Paul said that the 'spirit was willing but the flesh was not' meant that Paul blamed God for making the flesh evil for some reason.

It's clear that God made the flesh as a container for the Spirit acting as the energy source (batteries). Without either, neither could work.

God made Adam and Eve at the same time, but seperated them later. But God did say that they were 'ONE' just the same. This "Oneness" is what God is, as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all ONE, but with different 'parts'.

Nature has been discribed as meaning many things. Take 'Mother Nature' for instance--that is 'something' that has taken the real meaning of God away somewhat, by creating an entity that really means God.

God's law for instance, it has no beginning and no end, but is descriped as the "Natural Law of Nature"--the 'Common Law.'. It always was as God always was and will never end. God only wrote 'it' down for Israel because they wanted it writte down. Man from the beginning KNEW it was wrong to murder, steal, covit, commit adultry and testify falsly. Right?

However, Paul wrote that he would not have known sin (trasgression of the law) IF it had not been written down and given to Moses. I find what Paul said here to be blasphemy (My Opinion here) because Paul clearly knew what was right and wrong ever since he was old enough to know better!

[skyblue888]

I couldn't count the many times we have had this discussion here.

[cheddar]

Did Adam urinate or defecate before he sinned? Before sin there was no death which means that none of the cells in his body ever died.

Most of our organs are designed to filter impurities out of the blood and before sin there was no impurity. His entire physical anatomy was changed at the fall.

[Dr. Rich]

Of course they ate and pooped! And of course things died at that time! Didn't the food they ate die? They were the same before they were thrown out as afterwards! They were made mortal! The ONLY thing keeping them from death was eating from the tree of life.

[Gibs]

Dr. Rich, you certainly are entitled to believe of Paul as you find. I and many more find no problem with Paul. I've known a few others that didn't like Paul but I'm not anyone's judge.

What I do see is this, something happened to Adam and Eve after doing disobedience and it really showed up in Cain. It looks like as scriptue reveals then with about every generation it waxed worse in sin.

We must'nt forget as soon as Adam and Eve sinned they saw they were naked, so something changed there in them. Satan revealed it,

Ge 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Ge 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Anyone else care to comment? Do not be bashful.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[cheddar]

Of course they ate and pooped! And of course things died at that time! Didn't the food they ate die? They were the same before they were thrown out as afterwards! They were made mortal! The ONLY thing keeping them from death was eating from the tree of life.

LOL, you really think that there were piles of poop in the garden of eden? I'm not trying to be smart - this is a serious discussion.

My wife is in the medical field so I'm not completely ignorant on this.

[Gibs]

Cheddar, I have an idea there was a better way to take care of that than we have today. Our system of disposal of that is not ideal.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Dr. Rich]

Not only in the garden, but outside too. Did not preditors eat prey? Did not prey eat plants? They pooped to nuture the plants--right? There was NO difference between Man and the animals other than the communitive sprit of God was with the Man.

And how do you know that Mankind had not been created thousand of years before Adam? From what the bible states, it appears that the 6 day creation was thousands of years before Adam. (My opinion)

[wayfinder]

I am sure they had an outhouse or septic tank :)

[cheddar]

Cheddar, I have an idea there was a better way to take care of that than we have today. Our system of disposal of that is not ideal.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

So did Adam's anatomy change at the fall? What's the difference between the bodies we have today and the ones we will have after the resurrection?

[Dr. Rich]

Read Rev. 22:1-3 and you tell me. There was no difference in their bodies except the robe of righteousness covered them before. Nothing different from the bodies at all--or can you show me there was a change--from the OT or the words of Jesus?

[cheddar]

Read Rev. 22:1-3 and you tell me. There was no difference in their bodies except the robe of righteousness covered them before. Nothing different from the bodies at all--or can you show me there was a change--from the OT or the words of Jesus?

So are there solid gold toilets in the New Jerusalem?

[skyblue888]

Do you think there will be bathrooms in the New Jerusalem?

Our understanding of the spiritual body which we shall receive at the resurrection or by translation is very limited at this time but we may know that it will bear no comparison to this body of our humiliation as far as its powers are concerned.

How could there be such a thing as defecation in Eden before the fall and how could there be any such thing on the New earth or in Heaven?

And, of course, Adam's nature was changed after the fall. His flesh became sinful and every descendant of Adam is born with the same sinful flesh. Even Jesus was born with sinful flesh for according to Holy Writ He was a descendant of David according to the flesh.

"Concerning His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord, who was made of the seed of David according to the flesh." Rom.1:3.

That flesh of David was sinful flesh, not sinless flesh.

sky

[wayfinder]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

Read Rev. 22:1-3 and you tell me. There was no difference in their bodies except the robe of righteousness covered them before. Nothing different from the bodies at all--or can you show me there was a change--from the OT or the words of Jesus?

So are there gold plated toilets in the New Jerusalem?

No, gold is used to pave the streets :)

[Gibs]

Cheddar, You should have directed that question to Dr. Rich.

We will be changed and the scripture says not flesh and blood. I rather believe that is with the present bodies, but we'll soon see.

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

1Co 15:51 ¶ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

That more spells out incorruptible bodies.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[cheddar]

Do you think there will be bathrooms in the New Jerusalem?

Our understanding of the spiritual body which we shall receive at the resurrection or by translation is very limited at this time but we may know that it will bear no comparison to this body of our humiliation as far as its powers are concerned.

How could there be such a thing as defecation in Eden before the fall and how could there be any such thing on the New earth or in Heaven?

And, of course, Adam's nature was changed after the fall. His flesh became sinful and every descendant of Adam is born with the same sinful flesh. Even Jesus was born with sinful flesh for according to Holy Writ He was a descendant of David according to the flesh.

"Concerning His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord, who was made of the seed of David according to the flesh." Rom.1:3.

That flesh of David was sinful flesh, not sinless flesh.

sky

I agree and it only shows how far we have fallen because of Adam's sin. Sin has degraded every aspect of our life.

[Dr. Rich]

Do you think there will be bathrooms in the New Jerusalem?

Our understanding of the spiritual body which we shall receive at the resurrection or by translation is very limited at this time but we may know that it will bear no comparison to this body of our humiliation as far as its powers are concerned.

How could there be such a thing as defecation in Eden before the fall and how could there be any such thing on the New earth or in Heaven?

And, of course, Adam's nature was changed after the fall. His flesh became sinful and every descendant of Adam is born with the same sinful flesh. Even Jesus was born with sinful flesh for according to Holy Writ He was a descendant of David according to the flesh.

"Concerning His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord, who was made of the seed of David according to the flesh." Rom.1:3.

That flesh of David was sinful flesh, not sinless flesh. sky

Sky, we don't fully understand all of this and the facts we do have on this issue are from Jesus-NOT from Paul. It was Paul who said in Romans 1:1-3 that Jesus was born of the flesh as a descendant of David (and therefore Adam), but was only DECLARED the Son of God by being raised from the dead. (Read it, they are Paul's words, not mine) Of course Paul was wrong in Romans 1:1-3. Because Jesus was the root of David--as before David! Jesus was Michael and the Father and Mother placed Michael as a zygot into Mary so He could be born just as humans are born. Michael's new flesh was not evil in any way or He could not have gone to the grave sinless.

More over, Flesh itself is NOT sinful! It MUST first INTEND to sin- and without a MIND and SPIRIT, this can't happen.

Sky, assuming things are fine, but don't make them facts without proof. We do NOT have any proof that flesh changed after Adam sinned. If we do, please show it.

[ClubV12]

In a perfect system there is no waste. We WILL eat food in heaven, but our perfect digestive systems will use every bit of it and not waste any of it.

[Gibs]

Dr. Rich, Paul does give you the right answer to your questionings if you would receive it from him, this one especially,

Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Guest]

It was Paul who said in Romans 1:1-3 that Jesus was born of the flesh as a descendant of David (and therefore Adam), but was only DECLARED the Son of God by being raised from the dead.

That word "only" (which would change everything) is yours alone. And is nowhere to be found in connection to what you are talking about. You're only chasing your tale again Rich.

[Gibs]

In a perfect system there is no waste. We WILL eat food in heaven, but our perfect digestive systems will use every bit of it and not waste any of it.

In Eden then did Adam and Eve have an anus and did Jesus and will we in Heaven? Just us sinners with bodies have one of them. Just wondering.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[wayfinder]

Dr. Rich, Paul does give you the right answer to your questionings if you would receive it from him, this one especially,

Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Paul did not write Hebrews. The writer of Hebrews remains anonymous. One good indication that Paul was not the author, is the subject of Jesus our High Priest. Sixteen times the author uses the term High Priest, in all of Paul's letters he never calls Jesus our High Priest. In fact, Paul's salvation theology has no need of a high priest. A high priest is involved in corporate atonement. Pauline salvation theology is individual atonement (personal savior). Also, Paul always identified himself as the writer in all of his letters to his churches, because there were many letters in circulation purportedly writen by him, but were not. He did not want his converts to be led astray by imposters.

2 Thessalonians 3:17 NAS

I, Paul, write this greeting with my own hand, and this is a distinguishing mark in every letter; this is the way I write.

If you want my two cents worth on who may have written Hebrews, I would guess Apollos.

1 Corinthians 3:4 NAS

For when one says, "I am of Paul," and another, "I am of Apollos," are you not mere men?

From this text it is fairly clear that Paul and Apollos were friends and associates, but had some differences in understanding. These differences did not appear to be in conflict with one another.

[phkrause]

In a perfect system there is no waste. We WILL eat food in heaven, but our perfect digestive systems will use every bit of it and not waste any of it.

Was just thinking the same thing. The food we eat today is not the ideal diet that God intended. As we eat right now we digest, and the body only uses what it needs and dumps the rest. I'm guessing when Adam and Eve eat there bodies used all the food and had no waste. But of course this is only speculation and opinion.

[Gibs]

wayfinder,

You are right, Paul didn't write Hebrews as many have accredited him to have.

According to the note in my KJV Hebrews was by Timothy,

Heb 13:25 Grace be with you all. Amen. Written to the Hebrews from Italy by Timothy.

That is quite interresting as for years people have stated it was by Paul, I agree the writings don't have Paul's signature but it sure seems to uphold what Paul taught on so many points. Paul saw things somewhat different but I in no way can put him out as a true Apostle.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.