Adam's Nature

[wayfinder]

wayfinder,

You are right, Paul didn't write Hebrews as many have accredited him to have.

According to the note in my KJV Hebrews was by Timothy,

Heb 13:25 Grace be with you all. Amen. Written to the Hebrews from Italy by Timothy.

That is quite interresting as for years people have stated it was by Paul, I agree the writings don't have Paul's signature but it sure seems to uphold what Paul taught on so many points. Paul saw things somewhat different but I in no way can put him out as a true Apostle.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Gibs, I am not asking you to "put Paul out". Up until 2006 I belived whole heartedly in Paul. I trembled when I started seeing conflict and contradiction of the testimony of Jesus. Each individual must do their own research and test. The hardest thing to do is to be honest with yourself.

Revelation 2:2 I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked men, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false.

I pray that you will listen to the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, your teacher.

[Gibs]

Wayfinder,

I know there is some conflicts there but Paul still stands as he makes some issues much more clear and brings in a deeper understanting. Rest asaured I allow only His Word and His Spirit to guide me. He is right that Christ in you is our hope of glory. That is upheld by Jesus and the other Apostles.

False Apostles and teachers have always raised up from the time of Pentecost when the True ones received the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Dr. Rich]

Hmmm, that brings up a good point--was Paul ever baptized? We know that Paul said he never baptized anyone, but was wondering if anyone here can find where Paul was ever baptized.

Matt. 28 shows that Jesus told His disciples to make disciples out of others and baptise them. They were only to teach the same thing that Jesus said and taught--not adding anything to confuse anyone.

[miz3]

This is funny.

First you begin by saying what happened to Adam before and after sin. That morphs into a discussion of the "nature of Christ" which further morphs into whether Paul is Scripture or not.

Until you decide what the Authority or Referee will be the discussion will drift into nothing but continued confusion.

Under Dr. Rich's rules you are guaranteed in 99% of the discussion to be in fantasy error. He is occasionally correct, but that is only when he reads the Bible just as it says. Most often he puts his fantasy spin on the texts by additions and/or takeaways that are not there.

The same thing happens to the SDA Church .org faithful because of their penchant for placing Ellen White and her writings over those of the Bible. However, their percentage of correctness is much higher than that of Dr. Rich.

In addition you have those who put all human sources on the table as Authority. They pick and choose what fits their desired view as Authority/Referee. This is like Dr. Rich is guaranteed to make you wrong in the High 90% range almost all the time. Even some SDA Church .orgs dabble in this outside human resources method along with Ellen White and portions of the Bible.

Few there are that really study God/Jesus Christ and His Word as the Bible tells us to do (John chapter seventeen verse three).

The word "theology" means the study of God. Most think they are studying theology when really they are studying what humans want God/Jesus Christ to be for their own human purposes.

Which means few really study "theology" in the true sense of the word.

I think you start with a good question Gibs and this is worthy of study but I am afraid you have mess on your hands and any true answer is going to be difficult if not impossible to achieve.

You have to read the Scriptures without any additions and/or takeaways, and/or other sources imposing their views/will on the Scripture.

[Gibs]

Miz3,

It is hard to keep a thread on track here and I have discovered a solution.

That is just up and start a new thread on the change comment and to the changing comment state a new thread is started and bring the thread back on by bringing in a portion from the original to put forth the original question or statement.

By the way that's why I started this one.

And so folks let's get back on the topic, and thanks Miz3,

Original post and question,

Adam's nature, did it change after his disobedience? Did his sinless flesh then become sinful flesh? Then what natures did Jesus Christ have when He was on earth as a man since He too was born of woman, of the linage of David?

Thought some might like to comment on those 3 things and your ideas and why. I've seen some comments some have made with varying positions, so let us see a few.

I would add here and now, for some reason after sin they saw they were naked and their offspring had evil tendency and Cain was a murderer. Any comments on that thought?

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Dr. Rich]

God's law is the common law. Even before it was written down for Israel, everyone knew it was wrong to murder, hurt someone, steal, covit, lie and commit adultry.

What is 'nature'? I can say that it is not my nature to be with another man--since my brain can't even be allowed to think this way.

Therefore, can someone provide good evidence that Adam's nature changed when he sinned? I can't find that this happened.

Also, same question for the nature of Jesus. We have solid evidence that Jesus was Michael before being placed into Mary, so why would His nature be one as a human?

[Gibs]

The reason Mary the linage of David had a fallen nature and so her offspring would also. But since God was His Father, He also had His Divine nature. In Him the two natures were blended together.

Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

The body was the man named Jesus born from a woman of us.

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

God cannot be tempted. Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

He came to make a way for man to also overcome as He did. That is we too can have His Divine Nature with our fallen one and then He showed us it could be done. He was the first overcomer of us being made like unto us.

What changed for one thing is that when they obeyed Satan rather than God then Satan claimed them as his rightful subjects and Satan's spirit now could master them.

Even then their children were born to fall and had to be redeemed from it the same as Adam and Eve. They inherited a disease that would be in all from then on.

Satan from that time on usurped the rulership from Adam as he had bested him. No he is not the rightful ruler and it will be taken out of his hands, but for the present he is god of this world.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Dr. Rich]

Gibs, Rev. 12 shows us that Jesus was born of the Holy Spirit. The Woman of Rev. can only be the Holy Spirit because the church and Mary were never in heaven and the church can't give birth to itself.

Luke 1:35 points out that both the Holy Spirit and the Father were the real "Parents" of Jesus Christ. In fact, that is why Jesus was called the Son of God.

Also, NEVER did Jesus every say that Mary was His mother. He called her "woman"

Therefore, how can anyone say that Jesus had the DNA from any human? IF Jesus had this DNA, then He could not have been the "perfect Lamb" to pay for the penalty that would have been for Adam.

What you read in Hebrews and from the words of Paul are highly suspicious because they never knew Jesus personally and were only believing the voice in their heads. That's just a little 'insight' from me.

[Gibs]

Jesus got His body of flesh from Mary His earthly mother.

I found Hebrews is writen by Timothy, a note in the KJV,

Heb 13:25 Grace be with you all. Amen. Written to the Hebrews from Italy by Timothy.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gibs]

Hmmm, that brings up a good point--was Paul ever baptized? We know that Paul said he never baptized anyone, but was wondering if anyone here can find where Paul was ever baptized.

Matt. 28 shows that Jesus told His disciples to make disciples out of others and baptise them. They were only to teach the same thing that Jesus said and taught--not adding anything to confuse anyone.

Sounds like here he was baptized of the Holy Ghost,

Ac 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

Ac 13:9 Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him,

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Dr. Rich]

Gibs, Timothy was not a disiple or an apostle of Jesus and therefore never knew Jesus himself. In fact, Timothy was just a convert of Paul's and followed what Paul said and taught.

In my research I can't find any true author for Hebrews, as Timothy is only said Tomothy our brother has been released, with whom, if HE comes soon, I shall see you. So this does not look like Timothy wrote it, but someone else as Timothy also became a prisoner in Ephesus--because they put to test those who called themselves apostles (Timothey, like Paul, called himself an apostle) and found them to be false.

[Dr. Rich]

We can't go on pure presumption because we just might be wrong. Besides, Jesus said one first must be born of the water, and only then by the Holy Spirit. (See John 3:5) So, IF Saul/Paul was truely of God, then why wouldn't he have done exactly what Jesus said one MUST do in John 3:5?

And why wouldn't Paul be doing the same thing that Jesus told His disciples to do in Matthew 28? Something stinks and I don't like it at all!

[Gibs]

Dr. Rich,

Does the Bible give us a record of all the other Apostles water baptism?

I rather believe many are baptized by water but are not saved. It is a testimony to the world around that we have died of the old man and arose up out a new creature from above. To many that really understand it fully it is at the same time a baptizm of the Holy Spirit.

Then again there are many who later become baptized of the Holy Spirit.

On Hebrews, does it really matter who wrote it, what counts it can be realized it is true Words spoken from one filled with the Holy spirit. I will stick to Timothy for now.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

Hmmm, that brings up a good point--was Paul ever baptized? We know that Paul said he never baptized anyone, but was wondering if anyone here can find where Paul was ever baptized.

Matt. 28 shows that Jesus told His disciples to make disciples out of others and baptise them. They were only to teach the same thing that Jesus said and taught--not adding anything to confuse anyone.

Sounds like here he was baptized of the Holy Ghost,

Ac 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

Ac 13:9 Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him,

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

My dear brother Gibs here is the whole text of Acts of chapter 13 verse 9, in addition I include context.

"They traveled through the whole island until they came to Paphos. There they met a Jewish sorcerer and false prophet named Bar-Jesus, 7 who was an attendant of the proconsul, Sergius Paulus. The proconsul, an intelligent man, sent for Barnabas and Saul because he wanted to hear the word of God. 8 But Elymas the sorcerer (for that is what his name means) opposed them and tried to turn the proconsul from the faith. 9 Then Saul, who was also called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked straight at Elymas and said, 10 “You are a child of the devil and an enemy of everything that is right! You are full of all kinds of deceit and trickery. Will you never stop perverting the right ways of the Lord? 11 Now the hand of the Lord is against you. You are going to be blind, and for a time you will be unable to see the light of the sun."

Acts 13:6-11

You must quote the whole thing not just the parts that you like and assert that it is truth when in fact it is not because your methodology is wrong. You taint the Truth when you do this kind of sloppy thinking.

Second you cannot insert your words into the text as explanatory because the Bible then changes what it actually wants to say.

This kind of theology is extremely common among humans even among those who claim to know the SDA Church .org theology. This always leads to a human-centric theology rather than a God Centric Theology.

In addition you are wrong because they Bible and the Bible only is quite clear that no human DNA whatsoever had any part in the birth of Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit is the only entity of conception.

Neither Joseph and/or Mary had any part them in Jesus Christ at any time whatsoever. Jesus Christ was born and remained without any sin whatsoever until the Cross when God the Father placed all human sins on Christ as if Jesus was guilty of all of them.

What Jesus Christ had like us was skin, liver, heart, stomach, blood, etc. etc. etc. like the humans of His day. Jesus Christ felt hunger, was tired, felt pain, etc. etc. etc. like you and I and the other humans of His day.

What Jesus Christ did not have was a "nature" that ruled all of the above (or the total human entity) so that all of the above were forced to commit sin.

Jesus Christ like Adam before the Fall (before sin) had a nature that ruled so that all of the human entity could do was obey God.

The inevitable question then is, how could Adam have fallen into sin when he was forced to obey God?

The answer is simple, the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was placed by God in the Garden as a "stumbling block". Later after Eve sinned (by tripping over the God placed stumbling block) Eve became a "stumbling block" to Adam and Adam tripped over Eve and sinned.

[Gibs]

I posted enough Miz3, there was no need of using up a lot of space, long posts are not read you know. You say I'm wrong, well one day we will all see, just convince me if you care to try.

A lot of great long threads and comments load down the server pretty soon and the forum begins to run slower and slower and really a lot of the so old needs removed as no one goes back only so far.

Try going to ATS and see how that works at the busy time of day, sometimes it just crawls, over 15,000 members and forums galore but it's almost useless to comment anyting as in 5 minutes your comment is down line about 20 or more sometimes.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gibs]

I posted enough Miz3, there was no need of using up a lot of space, long posts are not read you know. You say I'm wrong, well one day we will all see, just convince me if you care to try.

A lot of great long threads and comments load down the server pretty soon and the forum begins to run slower and slower and really a lot of the so old needs removed as no one goes back only so far.

Try going to ATS and see how that works at the busy time of day, sometimes it just crawls, over 15,000 members and forums galore but it's almost useless to comment anyting as in 5 minutes your comment is down line about 20 or more sometimes.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Dr. Rich]

Gibs, Jesus washed the feet of all of the apostles which clearly was their water birth IF they had not yet been baptized. But remember, all of the apostles that Jesus chose were disciples of John the baptist so that make is clear to me that they all had been baptized by John the B.

[Gibs]

Dr. Rich, what I see is that all the other Apostles did finally receive Paul as one of them. And for me I'm firm on that. Paul was converted by Jesus Christ Himself when Jesus confronted him on that road and Paul immediately was broken. Then after a bit he could see and finally he was healed by Annanias. You cannot desell me on Paul.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[John317]

Dr. Rich, do you want to explain your beliefs about Paul's relationship with James, and tell us where you got your information? Specifically, do you believe that Paul had anything to do with James' fall off a roof?

[Dr. Rich]

John317, are you referring to the book called "James, the brother of Jesus"? If so, then read that first. It took me serveal years, but I did read it and was very surprised about the alleged altercation between James and Paul where James was thrown off the roof of the tempel by Paul and James leg was broken. This was later verified in some other reading I was doing at the time, probably by Josephes. At this time I have no other thoughts on this other than Paul shunned all of the disciples and especially the apostles--all during his life. But remember too, James was NOT a disciple or an apostle of Jesus. At one time James attempted to have Jesus killed too. James (the brother of Jesus) was very upset with his brother Jesus for causing the leaders of the Jews to think James was like Jesus.

It was James who had a vision--mush like the one(s) Paul had, that instructed him to be the leader of the new religion called christians. This probably confused the real disciples and especially Peter because all of them heard Jesus say that "On this Rock (meaning Jesus) Peter would build his sprirtual group from. Of course our bibles now say "church" but the real word would show otherwise. I am sure if this were you or me we sure would be confused! Of course Jesus could not mention the name 'Saul or Paul' as the one who would come to deceive many, because that would be shooting himself in the foot and then not many would have ever become deceived.

I have yet to find anyplace where any of the disciples of Jesus were buddies with Paul. Barnabas was suppose to have been one, but he was a priest, or in that tribe and was not suppose to own land, but then it is allged that he sold his land to support the trips for Paul and Barnabas.??? As to why Barnabas left Paul, we know that they had some type of a disagreement. But we only have ONE side to all of this so I don't pay much attention to it.

Luke wrote that his two letters (Luke and Acts) were to and for Theopolas, as a Roman official in order to show that this new religion called "Christian" inventied by Paul, was not to be a threat to Rome, and it never was a threat. What was considered a threat was the group called "THE WAY", the group of disiciples who were simply teaching what Jesus said and taught (Matt. 28:20) and nothing more.

[Dr. Rich]

Nature of Adam? He was neither righteous or evil as he did not know the difference at this time. Aftwards, he was the same nature, but now had knowledge and wisdom what was evil and what was not.

One thing I did not point out, is that Jesus' nature was not that of Adam's, in that Jesus knew right from wrong from the git go. So this has caused me to re-think Adam's nature, in that Adam must have known God's common law from the git go too. But who really knows.

As for Jesus not having any DNA from Mary, Jesus made it known that John the baptist was considered the greatest by him from anyone BORN OF A WOMAN. (Matt. 11:11) proving my point that Jesus' true 'Mother' was the Holy Spirit, the one found in Rev. 12.

[Gibs]

Some highlights from Act 13: of Paul and Barnabus teaching, the whole chapter needs to be read to really appreciate,

Ac 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.

Ac 13:3 And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.

Ac 13:4 ¶ So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus.

Ac 13:5 And when they were at Salamis, they preached the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews: and they had also John to their minister.

Ac 13:8 But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith.

Ac 13:9 Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him,

Ac 13:10 And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?

Ac 13:11 And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand.

Ac 13:41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.

Ac 13:42 ¶ And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

Ac 13:43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

Ac 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Ac 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

Ac 13:47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

Ac 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Ac 13:50 But the Jews stirred up the devout and honourable women, and the chief men of the city, and raised persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and expelled them out of their coasts.

Ac 13:51 But they shook off the dust of their feet against them, and came unto Iconium.

Ac 13:52 And the disciples were filled with joy, and with the Holy Ghost.

A false Apostle?

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Dr. Rich]

Absolutly! God would NEVER force anyone against their will to do what was done to Saul and to that person who was made blind! That is ONLY from Satan. How easy it is for people here to become deceived into believing things that are not of God? Luke wrote about Acts, but he never knew Jesus and was a Gentile Greek converted into Paul's new religion by Paul himself

Was Christinity ever feared by the Roman officials? Think about this for it has a lot to do with what Luke and Paul did.

[Gibs]

Dr. Rich, If Paul had of been of Satan he would have been rooted out stronger than how Paul rooted out Elymas the sorcerer. I sure would not be condemning Paul from where we stand today, we better let He who knows all do that. From the recorded fruits we have much evidence Paul was not of Satan after his confrontation with Jesus on the Road to Damascus and was converted on the spot. Paul became just as zealous after that for His Saviour as he was against Him before.

I for one am not one to run with you against Paul, I find that to be dangerous ground.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Dr. Rich]

Jesus could NOT have been the one Saul heard and was blinded by, because Jesus would then have been a liar. Jesus said that He was not coming back until the second coming. This is also why Jesus sent an angel to John to give him the information for the book of Revelation. It's just that simple.

Paul surly was deceived himself as he was the perfect one for Satan to use. Paul's message had to be very close to the truth or it would hav been east to spot him as a counterfiet. Romans 13 is what did it for me--when Paul said what he did in verses 1-6. All of that are lies as Satan is the ruler of this world until the 7th Trumpet sounds and that has not happened yet.

Also, I see that when the mark is presented by Satan, that many will accept it as God's will, because of Romans 13.