The TRUTH of KNOWLEDGE

[M. T. Cross]

As to not further disrupt Gibs' Important Verses thread I thought it would be good to give this its own thread.

As one grows spiritually, they just KNOW. With almost all spiritual matters it is virtually impossible to prove what you KNOW. But you do. You just KNOW.

But here is where the tricky part comes into play. You know what you do, and I know what I know. What happens when what we both KNOW to be true totally conflicts with each other. We both KNOW the TRUTH of our knowledge, yet it is miles apart from each other.....

[Gibs]

EC,

Christians I believe for the most part believe there is the Spirit of God, Yahweh and the heavenly angels, then there are the spirits of Satan and his angels.

Satan is a very clever deceiver, those caught up by him and his sure do feel they are on the right path. They have chosen a vile master that fall in with him.

Now those who have only allowed Christ, Yahshua to come and dwell in them and the heavenly angels as His ministering Spirits for right and Truth have a far different aspect than all other men.

What has happened to the truly converted one to Him, Yahshua, that one has died a spiritual death of what he once was and born again from above with a new nature within, His Divine Nature is in Him and his eyes and ears have been opened. A peace comes over that one like he could ever know other wise. Even though appointed to die once he knows he has eternal life. The Spirit of Yahshua within sets you free and we know this life isn't but a start. It is but a breath in eternity if that.

It is called conversion EC, you need to fall on Him and be broken and see. It has to be sincere and a full and complete surrender and many just won't do that, like a stubborn horse that will not be broken to ride. You bet Jesus, Yahshua knows when you are broken then He can dwell in you and you then are a temple of His Spirit.

He is love, he is righteousness and He is always by your side as one of His. The main part of us remember is spirit, this old body is just where we dwell. When we die our spirit returns to Him who gave it to either be installed in a new and perfect body in the first resurrection or to be annililated in the second, known as the final and last eternal death.

Join us!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[skyblue888]

As to not further disrupt Gibs' Important Verses thread I thought it would be good to give this its own thread.

Originally Posted By: EC

As one grows spiritually, they just KNOW. With almost all spiritual matters it is virtually impossible to prove what you KNOW. But you do. You just KNOW.

But here is where the tricky part comes into play. You know what you do, and I know what I know. What happens when what we both KNOW to be true totally conflicts with each other. We both KNOW the TRUTH of our knowledge, yet it is miles apart from each other.....

No they just don't know it as they ought to know it. "And if any man think that he knoweth anything, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know it." 1 Cor.8:2.

It doesn't matter how much the Lord may have revealed to a man, if he is imbued with the spirit of the Gospel, he will always confess before God and man that he does not know anything yet as he ought to know it and every day, every moment, he will say, Lord teach thou me.

Those who are joined to the Head Christ Jesus will be taught by the Holy Spirit and they will be of one mind, of one heart, established on every point and through them He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness. The Lord cannot afford to have an army of workers who hold different views and interpretations of what truth is. At Pentecost the disciples were united in the Spirit and in the truth because the Holy Spirit was their Teacher. This experience will be repeated during the latter rain and loud cry.

sky

[CoAspen]

I now know what I did not know then, but I do not know what I will know when.

[CoAspen]

Some believe knowing is the same as believing.

To know is to believe?

To believe is to know?

Which is it!

[skyblue888]

The only way to know is by believing. The only way to know the truth is by believing it and one cannot believe the truth unless it is first taught to him by the Holy Spirit and "through Him we believe." John 1:7.

All that the truth wants from us is that we believe it. Then we know. But even then we are to confess that we do not know that thing as we ought to know it. (1 Cor.8:2)

Then the Lord can teach us more because we have the right attitude, the spirit of the Gospel.

"The only remedy is belief in the truth, acceptance of the light." T.M.91.

"Every revelation of God to the soul increases the capacity to know and to love. The continual cry of the heart is, 'More of Thee,' and the Spirit's answer is, 'Much more.'" Mount of Blessing,20.

"As the Holy Spirit opens to you the truth, you will treasure up the most precious experiences and will long to speak to others of the comforting things that have been revealed to you." M.B.20.

sky

[CoAspen]

Definition of KNOW

transitive verb

(1) : to perceive directly : have direct cognition of (2) : to have understanding of

Definition of BELIEVE

intransitive verb

1a : to have a firm religious faith b : to accept something as true, genuine, or real

[Overaged]

[Dr. Rich]

Where does truth come from? (John 18:37) So how come people look to others for truth?

[M. T. Cross]

First off, Gibs, Sky, I'm not sure if you guys know but I spent the first 18 years of my life as an Adventist, and more after that considering myself a Christian despite some of the lifestyle choices I made that would argue otherwise. I do understand the message. I do understand your beliefs, I have read your scripture probably more than any other spiritual beliefs. But I never KNEW it to be the truth.

Now I could quote a whole bunch of other stuff that would counter point your Biblical quotes, but I think getting into "I am right you are wrong"is, well, wrong

Now CoAspen makes some interesting points about believing vs. knowing. I think somethings you have to believe to know and other things you have to know to believe.

OA, I am interested in your statement. Which one to you think would allow us to have differing sets of beliefs?

[Dr. Rich]

Here is some 'light' (pun) on this issue from the words of Jesus.

When you are in darkness you need faith to get around, so your vision is all in faith. But when you are in the light, you no longer need that faith as you now actually can see the things around you which has turned the faith into knowing what is the truth around you.

Jesus said that He came to this world of darkness so that we could now see the real truth (and hear it) so that the world could come out of the darkness. But Jesus also said to walk in that light so that darkness does not overtake you and leave you again in the dark.

What I believe this means is that truth is an ever ongoing experance, just as life itself is ongoing until you die and are in darkness. Same thing for justification until you reach the point of overcoming sin and this sinful world and join the Kingdom of Heaven by becoming born again by the Mother God, the Holy Spirit, the Woman of Rev. 12. At that point you are then sanctified (called a saint now) and have been born into the family of God, (not adopted), thereby making you one with God as is Jesus Christ, the Son of God. That's how I see it--all from the words of Jesus too.

[Overaged]

First off, Gibs, Sky, I'm not sure if you guys know but I spent the first 18 years of my life as an Adventist, and more after that considering myself a Christian despite some of the lifestyle choices I made that would argue otherwise. I do understand the message. I do understand your beliefs, I have read your scripture probably more than any other spiritual beliefs. But I never KNEW it to be the truth.

[Dr. Rich]

Problem is, truth is singular and absolute--and the ONLY place you can find this truth is from the words of Jesus given to us by His eyewitnesses--period. You will NEVER get the truth from Paul or EGW's writings as ONLY Jesus was born of this word to testify to the real truth. Building a foundation upon anyone's words other than Jesus may be fatal for your soul.

[Overaged]

But here is where the tricky part comes into play. You know what you do, and I know what I know. What happens when what we both KNOW to be true totally conflicts with each other. We both KNOW the TRUTH of our knowledge, yet it is miles apart from each other.....

OK; lets take you & I, just for comparison purposes...not for a right/wrong scenario, just to compare re this point you make about the differences.

As I tried to allude to in my last post above for this topic; the terminology we tend to use when describing "our" truth from "our" perspective, reveals our attitude, in general, about truth. Some people reveal in the words they choose on this subject that there is no more for them to learn that they "have it all." etc.

Whereas others, reveal that they are open to learn other things they do not know, and to add it to their "truth;" meaning, what they know so far. So to briefly compare, you & I are miles apart on a few things, but, we are also right on in other things, but maybe we just say it in different words. While the differences may seem disturbing to some people, they actually don't have to be.

I believe there are some rights and wrongs in our differences, but because there is so much in common; I believe that one thing we would have in common is to not let such differences eclipse the common ground we can build upon, and have our friendship based upon.

I sense that you would be interested in exploring some of those spiritual truths that we *know* but have in direct opposition to one another? I would be quite interested to hear from you a specific example. This could be an interesting discussion!!

[M. T. Cross]

First off, Gibs, Sky, I'm not sure if you guys know but I spent the first 18 years of my life as an Adventist, and more after that considering myself a Christian despite some of the lifestyle choices I made that would argue otherwise. I do understand the message. I do understand your beliefs, I have read your scripture probably more than any other spiritual beliefs. But I never KNEW it to be the truth.

[M. T. Cross]

Problem is, truth is singular and absolute--and the ONLY place you can find this truth is from the words of Jesus given to us by His eyewitnesses--period. You will NEVER get the truth from Paul or EGW's writings as ONLY Jesus was born of this word to testify to the real truth. Building a foundation upon anyone's words other than Jesus may be fatal for your soul.

Ok, how do you know that? I can turn around and say to you that the only truth is in the Havamal, or in the teaching of the divine prophet Buddha or etc etc........ I am not going to list off every religion - you get the point.

Christian wise I will agree with you on Paul and EGW for the most part though.

[M. T. Cross]

But here is where the tricky part comes into play. You know what you do, and I know what I know. What happens when what we both KNOW to be true totally conflicts with each other. We both KNOW the TRUTH of our knowledge, yet it is miles apart from each other.....

[Dr. Rich]

Good point EC and I might add that both yours and OA' are great too. This is what I have come up with in my own investigation on this issue:

Either God the Creator is real or He isn't. No gray area here. If He isn't, then what difference does it make about salvation? But IF He is real, then how does one learn all about this God? Is the Christian God the same as Allah or the the God of the Jews? If so, then why would this God tell one person one thing and then another a totally different thing? (I don't believe the real God would ever do this as we have evidence showing that God is the same yesterday as He is today and will be tomorrow.)

Is "God" more than one entity or 'person' (in human terms I suppose)? And IF this God is real, does this God actually want humans to also become Gods--as in Born of the Mother God (Holy Spirit)? (Rev. 12:17)

Who is/was Jesus Christ? If real, then why did He leave heaven and become born of a human woman? (See John 18:37). If not, then why not?

As for wisdom and knowledge, does God want to give people knowledge and the wisdom to understand that knowledge? If so, how does this happen? Does God download this knowledge or wisdom into any humans? If not, why not? If so, do we have evidence of this ever happening?

Or, does this knowledge and/or wisdom take time to learn? If so, who is our teacher? Where is the evidence for this? (See Matthew 23:8-10)

If God 'spoke' to us thru the prophets in the OT, then does/will God still speak to us now thru prophets? If yes, where is the evidence for this and then explain why the curtain in the Temple was torn please? Also explain the 'job' of the Holy Spirit and provide the evidence for that too? (John 16). Did Jesus ever say that there would be another true prophet other than the ONE found in Matt. 24:45? If so, where is this evidence?

As for salvation, what did our ONE and ONLY Teacher say about salvation? Evidence please?

[Overaged]

You are dead on there -- and that kind of discussion is one of the things I wanted to see when I came here. To see if it was possible for Christians and Pagans to find a spiritual relationship based on respect and common ground.

A specific example.......

Salvation. You go first LOL Tell me why you think we actually need it.

Depends what one means by "salvation."

LOL, but the very first answer that popped into my head, before anything else was:

"Well, we need something, don't we?"

[Overaged]

A specific example.......

Salvation. You go first LOL Tell me why you think we actually need it.

Hello my friend, EC! I have had a little sleep now, and have thought of how to explain the answer to your question better.

Sometimes, when telling someone about "the knowledge of truth;" it is useless to spout theology, and try to "win the argument/debate/discussion."

If you would be so kind (and I know you will, lol) to allow me a little space here to describe, from my sphere, from my own personal experience, why we need salvation; I am sure that it will give us lots to discuss, and spur many new and great thoughts. So without further adeau, (sp?) I will post my answer, with the added hope, that perhaps, we may also gain a glimpse of what salvation is, in addition to why we need it:

CAUTION: In Depth Theology On-board!!

An Angel Named Gladdie

By Overaged

This is part of a letter I wrote about an elderly woman that was discouraged, and I wrote this about a true experience to encourage her, and others in similar situations:

God is always blessing me in many ways. There are many trials; but His blessings far out-weigh them all.

I can't remember if I told you or not, but I have started a little part time nursing - private duty in homes. I have been looking after an elderly couple to help out their children in taking care of them; but the lady has gotten quite ill and is in hospital. She is dying, and preparing to go out from this world to the next, and when I went to see her today; there was no one else there. It was like God had especially arranged it.

We had a chance to talk, pray, and read a bit of scripture together. Even in all her frailty and suffering; she turned to me and said in a whisper: "You know Overaged, I have given my heart to God; for it is Him only who can help me now." And then she started crying...

To me, this was quite touching; to see someone so ill; and knowing that their time is close, and yet, expressing such faith and commitment to The Savior. When this lady said that to me; I asked if I could "read her something;" and we went over Romans 8 where it says: "Nothing can separate us from the love of Christ..."

She knew why I was reading this; and she said; "Oh Overaged, you lighten my heart so..." The funny part was, I had brought my small pocket Bible; and the print is really small. I actually couldn't read it, because my eyes are not as good as they used to be; so I fumbled a bit for a minute. Then I said to her: "Just wait a minute;" and I prayed for God to give me the words to the verses I wanted her to hear. And then the words actually did come out!! I couldn't read them; I had to just say them as they entered into my mind. It was so amazing to see it unfold...and I checked my Bible later and they were verbatim!

I felt it very important to just go to her and tell her as Micah once testified: "Even while I sit in darkness, the Lord will be my Light.." (Micah 7:8), and she seemed to really embrace this "message."

Today; I know that God used me as His instrument so that he could lighten the heart of a sick, old woman who was nearing the end of her pilgrimage in this world. It is such a blessing to see Him work like this in the dark valleys of our experiences.

The Bible tells us that in the last days, "the love of many will wax cold;" but I take that to also mean that the love of others will grow (warm)...The love of Christ is stronger than death; and I am really glad I could tell someone this today, and personally witness this today.

Christ has shown that His love was stronger than death. He was accomplishing man's salvation; and although He had the most fearful conflict with the powers of darkness, yet, amid it all, His love grew stronger and stronger. He endured the hiding of His Father's countenance, until He was led to exclaim in the bitterness of His soul: "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" His arm brought salvation. The price was paid to purchase the redemption of man, when, in the last soul struggle, the blessed words were uttered which seemed to resound through creation: "It is finished."

I don't know if any of this makes sense; but to just know that God walks with us, no matter what, is such a precious experience. I watched this dying lady today have that experience. She didn't really say an "It is finished;" but she did say: "It is only Jesus who can help me now." That meant to me that "It was finished" for my friend.

Oh, and by the way; I felt that I too received the assurance today that I needed. Her faith, gave me assurance, and encouragement. And this is a true knowledge of truth.

In the light of the Savior's life, the hearts of all, even from the Creator to the prince of darkness, are revealed. Satan has represented God as selfish and oppressive, as claiming all, and giving nothing, as requiring the service of His creatures for His own glory, and making no sacrifice for their good. But the gift of Christ reveals the Father's heart. It testifies that the thoughts of God toward us are "thoughts of peace, and not of evil." Jer. 29:11. It declares that while God's hatred of sin is as strong as death, His love for the sinner is stronger than death. Having undertaken our redemption, He will spare nothing, however dear, which is necessary to the completion of His work. No truth essential to our salvation is withheld, no miracle of mercy is neglected, no divine agency is left unemployed. Favor is heaped upon favor, gift upon gift.

The whole treasury of heaven is open to those He seeks to save. Having collected the riches of the universe, and laid open the resources of infinite power, He gives them all into the hands of Christ, and says, All these are for mankind. Use these gifts to convince them that there is no love greater than Mine in earth or heaven. Their greatest happiness will be found in loving Me.

I believe that God opened His “whole treasury” to me through this little old lady who said in her “darkness:” The Lord is my light.” I truly spoke with an “angel” as I sat by the hospital bed today.

(and this lady was not an Adventist, nor did she even go to any church. Her church was to watch "Hour Of Power," on TV every Sunday. Gladdie died about an hour after I left her bedside).

[Dr. Rich]

Now that's what I am talkin' about! Thanks OA!

[Overaged]

Now that's what I am talkin' about! Thanks OA!

Hey, you are welcome my friend. You know, one of the reasons I was saying to EC that I am excited about this topic, is simply that I have a sneaking suspicion that this IS what almost everyone is talking about. We just have trouble listening to/understanding each other's "language" on this subject of the "knowledge of truth."

[M. T. Cross]

First let me say OA, that is a beautiful story and I think it is a thing of great worth that you are doing this job with these elderly people.

Now to properly respond to this from my beliefs....... well we would have to get into another topic of theology - What happens when we die.

So I will do a short summation on my thoughts on Salvation. I don't think we need it.I believe that our experience here in this existance is a....... not sure how to word it, but like a mission, or a class, mostly just an experience that is an important one. Some people will do good things, others will not, some will live in poverty some will live in wealth, but what is important is that they live. If your remember a former signature of mine that said "There are many rivers, but they all lead to the same ocean". This is it. Be one Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, one of the many Pagan religions, atheist, agnostic, good or evil, we are all headed ultimately to the same ocean. We are just taking much different rivers and the scenery can be vastly different.

Now I am gonna through in a curveball. I do believe that there is such thing as Salvation. Even if not every religion calls it that it is a very similiar thing and it can be a part of a lot of those paths. In my religion we would refer to it more as seeking the light of the divine. To truly understand and live in a perpetual state of Oneness with the All. As far as however you may percieve the concept of Oneness or Salvation or whatever, most people are not going to find it. Cause they are not really seeking it. But I don't think that that means they are "lost". Their journey to that ultimate ocean is just gonna have a few more bumps and twists and turns.

[Overaged]

Now I am gonna through in a curveball. I do believe that there is such thing as Salvation. Even if not every religion calls it that it is a very similiar thing and it can be a part of a lot of those paths. In my religion we would refer to it more as seeking the light of the divine. To truly understand and live in a perpetual state of Oneness with the All. As far as however you may percieve the concept of Oneness or Salvation or whatever, most people are not going to find it. Cause they are not really seeking it. But I don't think that that means they are "lost". Their journey to that ultimate ocean is just gonna have a few more bumps and twists and turns.

Out of everything that you posted in the last post you made above; I appreciated your "curve-ball" the most. I have been wondering where you are coming from, and this tells me about that a bit.

I wont be able to respond for a couple days or so though because of work, and other stuff, so be patient; I will be back asap to comment in detail on your last post. Thanks for sharing that!

[Overaged]

Exactly. I worded it the way I did in the title after being told that Christians have THE truth. There was a touch of sarcasm in it I guess.

I will come back to this in a couple hours as I have some stuff to do with my son.

I'll be gone to work in a couple of hours my friend, but I am sure you will post something very interesting for me to sink my mind into when I get home.

EC; one of the things I like, that you have especially revealed in this topic, as well as one or two others, is simply your great spiritual hunger. That is quite evident in what you post, and, I feel, a great thing to build on.

I have to admit, that while I am a Christian, and an Adventist; I do wonder if some who ask you to "join us" really understand what they are asking you to join? I really wonder about that some days. Do they want you to just start "obeying" all the little rules that we tend to have, or maybe to "keep" the Sabbath? Or, is there a deeper "salvation" issue at the heart of the matter here?

I noted that above, you said that "we don't need salvation;" yet I also saw where you seemed to be saying that everyone will one way or another, be saved? Different roads, leading to the same thing? If I am not reading you correctly, let me know before i go spouting off about stuff that does not really apply.

So, for this post, I am really interested to ask you, what exactly, is this "salvation" that we don't need? How would YOU personally define it, and on what basis? (can you reference any sources such as Bible, other books, or what other Christians have told you?) I am thinking that you must believe in some sort of salvation, but I would like to see it defined in detail.

I think this will continue to be an interesting discussion.