The TRUTH of KNOWLEDGE

[phkrause]

Excellent post OA. I do agree its interesting that EC says there doesn't seem to be a need for salvation but than says or at least emplies all will be saved?

EC if all will be saved than we'll have this round robin over and over, with no end in sight of sin ever going away. How does that fit in with all being saved?

[M. T. Cross]

I just got home from work so will post more on this later. But I want to point out that I did not say that all will be "saved" but instead that no-one is "lost". There is a difference IMO.

[phkrause]

I just got home from work so will post more on this later. But I want to point out that I did not say that all will be "saved" but instead that no-one is "lost". There is a difference IMO.

Oh OK, but for me if your not lost your saved? What is the opposite of lost than, if not saved? I hope your not gonna say "found" :)

[M. T. Cross]

Briefly lets look at it this way.

There is a mountain. There are 9 trails up it. Some wind around, some go straight, some lead to the other ones for a while, some zigzag etc. You get 9 hikers on this mountain and they each pick a different path. In the end all of them end up at the top of the mountain and enjoy the beautiful view. Are they saved? No they never needed to be because they were never lost. But I bet the hiker that chose the straight path thought the other ones were at some point.

My point is this. We are each on a path. The path we are on is the path that we need to be on at this moment so that we can learn what we need to learn from it. For some people the best path is one that goes straight. Some people need to see more scenery. But in the end we all end up in the cabin at the top of the mountain sipping a beverage and enjoying the view.

So lets bring this back to truth and knowledge.

Each hiker will have a different set of knowledge about that mountain. Each one will have a different truth about that mountain. Each one will be right as well, because that was their experience on that mountain.

[Woody]

Some excellent thoughts EC.

I tend to agree with the concepts of the different paths.

But in the end - personally I believe that Salvation Through Jesus is the end result.

[miz3]

EC excellent post. It does state the Truth except for one thing.

Not all paths lead to the top of the mountain. Thus, some will take the wrongs paths that do not lead to the top of the mountain.

[M. T. Cross]

I'll be gone to work in a couple of hours my friend, but I am sure you will post something very interesting for me to sink my mind into when I get home.

EC; one of the things I like, that you have especially revealed in this topic, as well as one or two others, is simply your great spiritual hunger. That is quite evident in what you post, and, I feel, a great thing to build on.

[phkrause]

I have no problem with that EC. But they are all seeking the same end result. The problem with your senario is that there are many that are not interested in the end result. As Paul says, all who enter the race win, not like in the Olympics or any other race, there can only be one winner.

[phkrause]

Some excellent thoughts EC.

I tend to agree with the concepts of the different paths.

But in the end - personally I believe that Salvation Through Jesus is the end result.

[phkrause]

EC excellent post. It does state the Truth except for one thing.

Not all paths lead to the top of the mountain. Thus, some will take the wrongs paths that do not lead to the top of the mountain.

[M. T. Cross]

I have no problem with that EC. But they are all seeking the same end result. The problem with your senario is that there are many that are not interested in the end result. As Paul says, all who enter the race win, not like in the Olympics or any other race, there can only be one winner.

You are absolutely right not all are seeking end result. IMO opinion they will end up there whether interested or not. Some of those hikers might stop half way up the mountain and sit by a creek for a month, another might just grab a path and walk on it because its there and its whats expected, another might sit at the bottom of the mountain refusing to hike, another might spend a bunch of time trying to sabatoge the other paths. But in the end they will all end up on the top. Even the guy sitting at the bottom, cause at one point he will get cold and need to move. To his surprise he will end up on a path.

I can't view it as a competition PK. Its not about who is the first to the top and who is the last. Its simply about getting to the top. The guy who picks the straight path may get to the top first and he will have a spectacular view indeed. But the guy who arrives much later cause he took the zig zag path will end up with the same view, but he will be looking down on a bunch of stuff that he had the joy of experiencing up close and personal on his journey up the mountain.

See in the end I don't think its about the right path or the wrong path. I think it is about the path that resonates with you the most. I think that the Divine understands that each of us is going to need to see different views and has provided many many paths to its light.

[phkrause]

You are absolutely right not all are seeking end result. IMO opinion they will end up there whether interested or not. Some of those hikers might stop half way up the mountain and sit by a creek for a month, another might just grab a path and walk on it because its there and its whats expected, another might sit at the bottom of the mountain refusing to hike, another might spend a bunch of time trying to sabatoge the other paths. But in the end they will all end up on the top. Even the guy sitting at the bottom, cause at one point he will get cold and need to move. To his surprise he will end up on a path.

The parts in bold I disagree with.

[phkrause]

I can't view it as a competition PK. Its not about who is the first to the top and who is the last. Its simply about getting to the top. The guy who picks the straight path may get to the top first and he will have a spectacular view indeed. But the guy who arrives much later cause he took the zig zag path will end up with the same view, but he will be looking down on a bunch of stuff that he had the joy of experiencing up close and personal on his journey up the mountain.

I agree its not a competition, that's why I mentioned what Paul had to say about the competition of races, etc., where there can only be one winner, but with Christ all are winners. No matter when they cross the finish line.

[phkrause]

See in the end I don't think its about the right path or the wrong path. I think it is about the path that resonates with you the most. I think that the Divine understands that each of us is going to need to see different views and has provided many many paths to its light.

The part in bold I think I disagree with, but I have to read it a few more times to see if in my mind I'm understanding what your saying in that sentence.

As far as the Divine, he knows our hearts so he has no problem knowing where we are headed. Not sure I agree with the "he has provided many paths to its light." I'd say we do all the twisting and turning from the path that he has provided for us.

[M. T. Cross]

You are absolutely right not all are seeking end result. IMO opinion they will end up there whether interested or not. Some of those hikers might stop half way up the mountain and sit by a creek for a month, another might just grab a path and walk on it because its there and its whats expected, another might sit at the bottom of the mountain refusing to hike, another might spend a bunch of time trying to sabatoge the other paths. But in the end they will all end up on the top. Even the guy sitting at the bottom, cause at one point he will get cold and need to move. To his surprise he will end up on a path.

[phkrause]

I kind of thought you would, perhaps where I am coming from will make more sense as we get deeper into this. For now I am desperately trying to avoid getting into the next part of this too early

Thats the joy of debate though PK, we may never agree - but we can all learn from each other if we discuss reasonably and with dignity

[skyblue888]

Salvation is revealed not to the rich but to the poor. What does that mean? No matter where you are upon this earth, if you are one of those who know that they cannot possibly save themselves or of themselves do any righteous action, you are among the poor in spirit whom Jesus declares blessed. In other words, if you have a sense of need in your soul, if you hunger and thirst for righteousness, this is an evidence that Christ has wrought upon your heart in order that He may be sought unto to do for you, through the endowment of the Holy Spirit, those things which it is impossible for you to do for yourself, to do in you and for you both to will and to do His good pleasure as it is expressed in the precepts of His holy law.

'God will accept everyone who comes to Him trusting wholly in the merits of a crucifed Saviour. Love springs up in the heart. There may be no ecstasy of feeling, but there is an abiding, peaceful trust. Every burden is light, for the yoke which Christ imposes is easy. Duty becomes a delight, and sacrifice a pleasure. The path that before seemed shrouded in darkness becomes light with beams from the Sun of Righteousness. This is walking in the light as He is in the light.' 1 S.M.354.

All this takes place while exercising the faith that lays right hold upon the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour!

'Of a truth I perceive that God is no respector of persons; in every nation he that feareth Him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted of Him.' Acts 10:35.

sky

[M. T. Cross]

So Sky are you saying that anyone that does not worship the same God as you can be righteous and have any kind of salvation?

[Overaged]

Salvation it seems to me is a word used by the followers of the God of Abraham. In the end what is this salvation? It is to join him in his home and be one with him right? That to a degree fits very well IMO that this life here on earth is just one step our ultimate existance. Many religions contain this concept in one way or another. Most of the eastern religions do, most of the Northern European ones do. Also contained in them is that what we do in this life has a direct consequence on the next step. For Christians the beliefe is that good joins God and evil goes to visit Satan (over simplified I know). I come more from the view that we are here to learn and to experience. That each experience is as valid as the other, and that everyone is going to reap what they sow in this life. If this does not answer what you were getting at please let me know and I will try again.

[fccool]

I think that you've brought up the point that eventually heralded the beggining of the end of my belief. And the point is this...

Christians re-define truth, certainty, faith and belief.

For example, whenever a Christian speaks about truth, most likely he/she refers to a belief in certain truth, and not truth itself. Whenever they point out the certainty of certain truth, they most likely really refer to belief in certainty of certain truth.

Both concepts are fairly far from the idea that they believe to be postulating. In reality they only speak about what they believe, and it may or may not reflect the actual reality.

[M. T. Cross]

I agree; you have some points that we could listen to. And I appreciate that about you.

LOL, I am glad you added that last sentence in this paragraph that I quoted...I have read your description here of "salvation;" and to me, it reads as very vague, and generalized. Nothing to do with you personally; thats just how it reads to me. I am not really sure what you are saying salvation is. I can't put my finger on any one fact or thing, in particular. What that means; I don't know. I will let you tell me.

[Overaged]

Well, don't leave me hanging my friend. Where do "right impulses" come from?

[M. T. Cross]

Sorry I had been out of bed for less than five minutes when I wrote that..........

I think right impulses come from within.

We are not robots, we are not controlled to do good by God, or evil by the Devil. We have within us the ability and tendency for both and we make a decision along the way to lean more one way or the other.

One of my pet peeves has often been the whole idea of "The Devil tempted me and I was weak" of "I give all the credit for my good acts to God". No - you made the choices, you screwed up or you didn't. Self responsibility and Self Honesty go both ways. Can the deity we worship guide us and help us with those choices? Absolutely! But in the end the choice and the responsibility for it lies with us.

[Overaged]

lol, NEVER reply to the likes of me till you are wide awake.

You & I definitely share the same "pet peeve" as you just noted above! But I am offline starting now till late tonight!! I will look forward to this then!! have a great day!!

Are you awake now?

[M. T. Cross]

I think so......... Its the first time I have slept past 6 am in like 2 years so I am all messed up