The TRUTH of KNOWLEDGE

[CoAspen]

Quote:

One of my pet peeves has often been the whole idea of "The Devil tempted me and I was weak" of "I give all the credit for my good acts to God". No - you made the choices, you screwed up or you didn't. Self responsibility and Self Honesty go both ways. Can the deity we worship guide us and help us with those choices? Absolutely! But in the end the choice and the responsibility for it lies with us.

Correct!! It's really Adam's fault....he started the first finger pointing....wait a minute, so did Eve!! Ah, free choice will get you everytime, what was God thinking!?

[Nich]

As to not further disrupt Gibs' Important Verses thread I thought it would be good to give this its own thread.

Originally Posted By: EC

As one grows spiritually, they just KNOW. With almost all spiritual matters it is virtually impossible to prove what you KNOW. But you do. You just KNOW.

But here is where the tricky part comes into play. You know what you do, and I know what I know. What happens when what we both KNOW to be true totally conflicts with each other. We both KNOW the TRUTH of our knowledge, yet it is miles apart from each other.....

Setting the platform by echoing the problem to ensure that we all understand the problem the same way: If two people have knowledge that they believe to be true, yet the knowledge contradicts each other.

To settle this, we must ask ourselves what is truth?

Is truth absolute or is it relative?

If it is absolute, one of the two will have to be right (if indeed the held knowledge is truth), and the other wrong

If truth is relative, then both can believe whatever they want to believe and both can be right.

Another question to be asked is, Is truth always either absolute or relative only, or can truth be absolute or relative depending of the situation?

"Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder" - One may get the awe of beauty by beholding something or someone, while the other may not. This is when truth is relative.

"Is God real?" - Here, the truth to this question has to be absolute, He cannot exist and not exist at the same time simply because two individuals hold different beliefs.

Well then, how do we settle the absolute truth? Evidence. Each side of the story has to provide evidence that proves.

In the case of God, we see his handiwork in the beauty of all His creation, more than this, the gift of the Bible.

The true living God, the God of the bible proves Himself through scripture in science and prophecy.

Science in the bible that have been verified

http://www.bibletoday.com/archive/proof_text.htm

http://www.pleaseconvinceme.com/index/The_Bible_Foreshadows_Scientific_Discoveries

Prophecy such as Daniel 2

God declaring His authority and giving a challenge to other gods.

Isaiah

44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I [am] the first, and I [am] the last; and beside me [there is] no God.

44:7 And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them show unto them.

46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

If the absolute truth is that God exists, then He has to somehow make Himself known in the world, and the absolute truth about it is that one of the chosen ways is through the Bible.

If the absolute truth of how God has chosen to commune with the world is through the bible, then everything in the bible is true, because it is one of God's main channels of communication.

Numbers 23:19 God [is] not a man, that he should lie;

2 Tim 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

This eliminates judging what is inspired and what is not, for all of it is inspired. Our job is to study to understand and to respond.

In the parable of the seed and the sower, seed was sown, some fell by the wayside, others fell on rocks, some fell on thorns, Matthew 13:8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

The interpretation is found in Matt 13:18-23

The seed represents the word of God.

The different grounds represents the different hearts that receive the word of God.

Focusing on the seeds that fell on good ground, we note that in order for the seed to bring fruit, something needs to happen other than just having the seed fall on good ground:

Matt 13:23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth [it]; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

The Spirit of Prophecy, Ellen White's writing, cannot be separated from the Seventh Day Adventist Movement, the movement that was born out of the great disappointment. The great disappointment prophesied in Revelation 10.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

When the time of the loud cry will come, the Three Angels Messages will go to all the world. Everyone who may have never heard will hear the message at the time of the fulfillment of fourth angel of Rev 18 who cries with a mighty and strong voice. This is what will happen before the general close of probation happens when, Christ completes His intercessory work.

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

[M. T. Cross]

Nich, I don't think I ever said that the Bible does not contain truths. If you dig deep enough a lot of those truths are present in other teachings as well.

The thing is that all writing are the interpretations on mankind. They have all been subject to various translations as our languages have developed. So while they are great guidelines we need to seek truths by seeking the Divine and Deity.

I am always curious about the term Christians use when describing their God. You say the "living God". I would love for someone to point out the DEAD gods and a description of how they died.......

[Guest]

The dead gods never were alive. Unless you say a god of wood was once a living tree. You can make a god out of anything. Even music.

[M. T. Cross]

The dead gods never were alive.

[Overaged]

I think so......... Its the first time I have slept past 6 am in like 2 years so I am all messed up

Isn't life rough when you get enough sleep? lol

[Overaged]

Sorry I had been out of bed for less than five minutes when I wrote that..........

I think right impulses come from within.

We are not robots, we are not controlled to do good by God, or evil by the Devil. We have within us the ability and tendency for both and we make a decision along the way to lean more one way or the other.

One of my pet peeves has often been the whole idea of "The Devil tempted me and I was weak" of "I give all the credit for my good acts to God". No - you made the choices, you screwed up or you didn't. Self responsibility and Self Honesty go both ways. Can the deity we worship guide us and help us with those choices? Absolutely! But in the end the choice and the responsibility for it lies with us.

lol; some of us make great robots. We will swallow anything, eh?

But I agree; blaming the devil for what we do "wrong" may not be the whole story, for sure. There are certainly other possibilities.

Now your stated position, so far, is that our right impulses "come from within." My understanding of this can still allow for the thought that "all right impulses come from Christ."

Now, you also said above that you believe the Bible contains "some" truths; and my thought is that this might be a point where you & I could agree, or come close to agreement on.

There is a text in the Bible that makes me think all this:

Rom_12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

I believe that this "measure of faith" crosses all religions and denominations, simply because of the way the text is worded; it says THE measure of faith. It is not "a" measure of faith, nor is it "some" measure of faith; rather, it is THE "measure of faith."

In other words, everyone gets the same thing, it's what we do with THE measure of faith that counts. I also see some religions/ideologies as hindering THE measure of faith; and this means it would not be wrong to examine various religions to see where this would be so. At the very least; I believe that my point does show why you & others, including myself have noticed that a lot of different religions have elements of similar truths in common.

[Naomi]

[M. T. Cross]

lol; some of us make great robots. We will swallow anything, eh?

But I agree; blaming the devil for what we do "wrong" may not be the whole story, for sure. There are certainly other possibilities.

Now your stated position, so far, is that our right impulses "come from within." My understanding of this can still allow for the thought that "all right impulses come from Christ."

[phkrause]

Setting the platform by echoing the problem to ensure that we all understand the problem the same way: If two people have knowledge that they believe to be true, yet the knowledge contradicts each other.

To settle this, we must ask ourselves what is truth?

Is truth absolute or is it relative?

If it is absolute, one of the two will have to be right (if indeed the held knowledge is truth), and the other wrong

If truth is relative, then both can believe whatever they want to believe and both can be right.

Another question to be asked is, Is truth always either absolute or relative only, or can truth be absolute or relative depending of the situation?

"Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder" - One may get the awe of beauty by beholding something or someone, while the other may not. This is when truth is relative.

"Is God real?" - Here, the truth to this question has to be absolute, He cannot exist and not exist at the same time simply because two individuals hold different beliefs.

Well then, how do we settle the absolute truth? Evidence. Each side of the story has to provide evidence that proves.

In the case of God, we see his handiwork in the beauty of all His creation, more than this, the gift of the Bible.

The true living God, the God of the bible proves Himself through scripture in science and prophecy.

Science in the bible that have been verified

http://www.bibletoday.com/archive/proof_text.htm

http://www.pleaseconvinceme.com/index/The_Bible_Foreshadows_Scientific_Discoveries

Prophecy such as Daniel 2

God declaring His authority and giving a challenge to other gods.

Isaiah

44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I [am] the first, and I [am] the last; and beside me [there is] no God.

44:7 And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them show unto them.

46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

If the absolute truth is that God exists, then He has to somehow make Himself known in the world, and the absolute truth about it is that one of the chosen ways is through the Bible.

If the absolute truth of how God has chosen to commune with the world is through the bible, then everything in the bible is true, because it is one of God's main channels of communication.

Numbers 23:19 God [is] not a man, that he should lie;

2 Tim 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

This eliminates judging what is inspired and what is not, for all of it is inspired. Our job is to study to understand and to respond.

In the parable of the seed and the sower, seed was sown, some fell by the wayside, others fell on rocks, some fell on thorns, Matthew 13:8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

The interpretation is found in Matt 13:18-23

The seed represents the word of God.

The different grounds represents the different hearts that receive the word of God.

Focusing on the seeds that fell on good ground, we note that in order for the seed to bring fruit, something needs to happen other than just having the seed fall on good ground:

Matt 13:23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth [it]; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

The Spirit of Prophecy, Ellen White's writing, cannot be separated from the Seventh Day Adventist Movement, the movement that was born out of the great disappointment. The great disappointment prophesied in Revelation 10.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

When the time of the loud cry will come, the Three Angels Messages will go to all the world. Everyone who may have never heard will hear the message at the time of the fulfillment of fourth angel of Rev 18 who cries with a mighty and strong voice. This is what will happen before the general close of probation happens when, Christ completes His intercessory work.

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

awesome, some really great stuff

[M. T. Cross]

I was thinking today about the futility of this discussion. See you all throw the Bible and EGW out there. I give ground that the Bible has truths. My heart and my mind are open to that. I do not think that the Hebrew people were idiots, I think that they had some great minds. I think that there God was a huge part of their culture and that he was the only one for them.

Yet if I were to throw out there at you guys verses from the Havamal, lessons from the parables and stories of Manannan, from the Eddas most would simply dismiss it saying it is not of the Bible, that they are the words of false Gods, that none of them existed or that they are demons in disguise. Honestly my friends, that is insulting.

[Overaged]

I was thinking today about the futility of this discussion. See you all throw the Bible and EGW out there. I give ground that the Bible has truths. My heart and my mind are open to that. I do not think that the Hebrew people were idiots, I think that they had some great minds. I think that there God was a huge part of their culture and that he was the only one for them.

Yet if I were to throw out there at you guys verses from the Havamal, lessons from the parables and stories of Manannan, from the Eddas most would simply dismiss it saying it is not of the Bible, that they are the words of false Gods, that none of them existed or that they are demons in disguise. Honestly my friends, that is insulting.

I am surprised to read this post. First; you are quite free to explain your faith here for the purposes of comparing & contrasting. I don't know of anyone who has said other wise.

Second; I thought you wanted to compare & contrast our respective beliefs here? I don't really understand how I can do that, unless I explain my position some from the Bible, or some other source?

If I had known I was "insulting" you here; I would have just shut up and not bothered.

Maybe you need to be clearer about what you want to discuss in this topic?

I apologize for any insults...

[M. T. Cross]

OA.....

1. I said most not all, and if you read over your posts and think of our conversations it should be obvious that you have not done those things.

2. You are right, no one said I could not. And I have before and got that exact same result.

3. The fault is mine. I honestly hoped there was a chance at an open minded thread where the participants posted with open minds. But there is always going to be the closed that have to swoop in, make a comment and likely never come back. I should have known better and just kept it to pm's

[Overaged]

OA.....

1. I said most not all, and if you read over your posts and think of our conversations it should be obvious that you have not done those things.

2. You are right, no one said I could not. And I have before and got that exact same result.

3. The fault is mine. I honestly hoped there was a chance at an open minded thread where the participants posted with open minds. But there is always going to be the closed that have to swoop in, make a comment and likely never come back. I should have known better and just kept it to pm's

Hey; don't sweat it my friend. The fault is more mine. I got stuck working almost 16 hours yesterday, and I do believe I may have been a bit psychotic when I replied and that I mis-read what you posted. Hopefully, you will forgive me and we can carry on here. I was actually enjoying this discussion, and I see there is a post you made to me that I will look forward to answering. lol, I won't do it for a day or two tho. I am still a bit psychotic from yesterday...

[Overaged]

PS, even though we are not in agreement with some things here; I like your posts the most. You are doing a great job, and showing a good example...just sayin...

[Naomi]

PS, even though we are not in agreement with some things here; I like your posts the most. You are doing a great job, and showing a good example...just sayin...

[M. T. Cross]

Forgive me as well, I am under a great deal of stress right now and likely could have worded that better. I really appreciate those that are willing to have an open minded conversation. By that I do not mean that anyone needs to agree with every point I make. I might not agree with it in 5 or 10 years, I hope I continue growing like that.

That said, I grow more and more wary of posting certain things and discussing certain things publicly. I do understand this is an SDA board, and speaking of other Gods and other theologies and philosophies will go over like a brick with some people. Thing is, I don't think I have ever said that the Biblical God is not real, that he does not exist. I question some things about him, about his son and all, but I would think that it is highly disrespectful to say that about someones deity. If any of those that say that about my Gods were to come to a pagan board I would not say their God is not real there either.

So again again I am willing to discuss any of this with those who are open and eager to debate. But I likely will not post verses or references from anywhere. I respect those writings to much to see them shredded by those that are not open and willing.

[Dr. Rich]

I try to understand you EC, as I too know that there were truely many other gods thatt people believed in ages ago as I too am in constant study on these issues. The ten commandments tells us that there were other gods besides the Creator Gd. But just who is really in charge (control) of all of these other gods spoken of in the ten commandments?

[M. T. Cross]

I try to understand you EC, as I too know that there were truely many other gods thatt people believed in ages ago as I too am in constant study on these issues. The ten commandments tells us that there were other gods besides the Creator Gd. But just who is really in charge (control) of all of these other gods spoken of in the ten commandments?

That is a great question Rich. One that was discussed a couple weeks ago in my religious group. So my answer will be based pretty much in that conversation.

The "controlling" force in the universe is the Divine. The Divine is an ageless, genderless, omnipotent force from which all things manifest. It has a conciousness, but not like anything we can compare to. The word controlling is not exactly the right term though. It is everything. Everything is a part of it, from a blade of grass to human life to deity. The Divine is All. There is a Welsh word, one that has been adopted by the modern Druid movement, that really resonates with me personally in describing in part how the Divine moves through all thing. The word is Awen

Deity are a manifestation of the Divine. I believe that also includes Yahweh and his son Jesus. This also includes all other Pantheons.

Now you might, if you have read closely what I am saying here, say "But you said all things are a manifestation of the Divine, including humans". This is true. The difference between human and Deity is this. Deity live in a perpetual state of connection with the Divine. They are completely tapped in so to speak. They completely understand and emerge themselves in the knowledge of their nature, the nature of all things, which is that all things are a manifestation of the Divine. This is truly having defeate the Ego and Self. This is not to say that they are not each individuals, that they can not have agendas of thier own. It means that they have mastered the awareness of the Divine All.

This of course leads to the big question. Why do they have such different messages? While on the surface it seems that they do, I am not so sure that is the truth. As I have mentioned before, the words of Deity have been recorded by mankind. Mankind of course does not have the understanding that Deity has, mankind is filled with Self and Ego, and agenda's run rampant through us. Look at the words of Yahweh and Jesus. How many different religions have sprung from those words? How many different interpretations of those words? How many people have died over them? If you look closely at the beliefs people have based on different deity you will however start seeing a thread that runs through them. I am not going to tell you what that thread is, because I am but an infant in truly understanding it, but it is there. It seems to me that often as not Deity responds in a way that its chosen followers can understand. Much like a parent will explain the same thing to each child in a completely different manner if needed. Yahweh dealt with the children of Abraham in one way as they were coming out of the bonds of slavery, his son taught them in a different manner as they progressed as a people. Zeus and clan dealt with the Greeks in a different manner. The Northern European pantheons interacted with the people of those nations in a different way. But there is a common thread there. My belief is that if we search hard enough, if we open ourselves enough that we can find that thread and when we do we find "salvation" so to speak. Salvation being that total connection and perpetual state of being emerged with the Divine All.

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

I try to understand you EC, as I too know that there were truely many other gods thatt people believed in ages ago as I too am in constant study on these issues. The ten commandments tells us that there were other gods besides the Creator Gd. But just who is really in charge (control) of all of these other gods spoken of in the ten commandments?

That is a great question Rich. One that was discussed a couple weeks ago in my religious group. So my answer will be based pretty much in that conversation.

The "controlling" force in the universe is the Divine. The Divine is an ageless, genderless, omnipotent force from which all things manifest. It has a conciousness, but not like anything we can compare to. The word controlling is not exactly the right term though. It is everything. Everything is a part of it, from a blade of grass to human life to deity. The Divine is All. There is a Welsh word, one that has been adopted by the modern Druid movement, that really resonates with me personally in describing in part how the Divine moves through all thing. The word is Awen

Deity are a manifestation of the Divine. I believe that also includes Yahweh and his son Jesus. This also includes all other Pantheons.

We have some similarities in beliefs here; and there are also some direct challenges to Christianity/christian beliefs here. Which is good to me. I like the fact that we both recognize how the "controlling force" in the Universe is "the Divine." That's a good point to build on.

The first thing I am wondering here EC is which specific text do you or Dr Rich have in mind when you say that the ten commandments "mention other Gods?" Also, there are many different shades of "pagan religions" out there, and I noted that you referred to your "religious group" discussing that very question. I would be interested to hear more details about what specific group that is, and what all they believe etc...

[Dr. Rich]

"Thou shalt not have any other gods before me." Here God tells us that He is a jelous God (something that Paul's 'love' is against) and all because of most of the world worshipping these other gods.

Which leads me to another question--why did God cause a flood to come and wipe out all mankind except Noah (and of course his family)? Which god was the god of the Myian Indians? Or even the American Indians? Were they more in tune with their god than those who thought they were uncivil savages?

It is my understanding that these gods were first to be the watchers (angels of God) prior to Lucifer usurping God's authority, of this world after the FIRST creation (the 6 day creation) many thousands of years before Adam. Of course this is just a thoeory,

[M. T. Cross]

We have some similarities in beliefs here; and there are also some direct challenges to Christianity/christian beliefs here. Which is good to me. I like the fact that we both recognize how the "controlling force" in the Universe is "the Divine." That's a good point to build on.

The first thing I am wondering here EC is which specific text do you or Dr Rich have in mind when you say that the ten commandments "mention other Gods?" Also, there are many different shades of "pagan religions" out there, and I noted that you referred to your "religious group" discussing that very question. I would be interested to hear more details about what specific group that is, and what all they believe etc...

[M. T. Cross]

"Thou shalt not have any other gods before me." Here God tells us that He is a jelous God (something that Paul's 'love' is against) and all because of most of the world worshipping these other gods.

Which leads me to another question--why did God cause a flood to come and wipe out all mankind except Noah (and of course his family)? Which god was the god of the Myian Indians? Or even the American Indians? Were they more in tune with their god than those who thought they were uncivil savages?

It is my understanding that these gods were first to be the watchers (angels of God) prior to Lucifer usurping God's authority, of this world after the FIRST creation (the 6 day creation) many thousands of years before Adam. Of course this is just a thoeory,

[M. T. Cross]

Which leads me to another question--why did God cause a flood to come and wipe out all mankind except Noah (and of course his family)? Which god was the god of the Myian Indians? Or even the American Indians? Were they more in tune with their god than those who thought they were uncivil savages?

This only is a valid question if one believes the Biblical account of the flood to absolute and 100% accurate. I don't.

[Overaged]

Forgive me as well, I am under a great deal of stress right now and likely could have worded that better. I really appreciate those that are willing to have an open minded conversation. By that I do not mean that anyone needs to agree with every point I make. I might not agree with it in 5 or 10 years, I hope I continue growing like that.