Women's Ordination

[Naomi]

Not responding to any one post:

I read and reread the post on this thread and can't quite decide what bothers me about it. FWIW I have known female Adventist Pastors who did a good, effective job. I am sure have been a source of encouragement and a blessing to many. I don't know that being ordained would make a difference in their commitment to their calling.

What I have observed is that it takes two people to effectively minister to a congregation. Most wives of pastors have awesome responsibilities and are a valued addition to the ministry. It is more difficult for the husband of a female pastor to take on the same role. Notice I did not say they could not or do not, just more difficult.

Women have served many valued roles in the development of the church. I am very proud of the women I have observed through the years for endless hours of work. And, I believe they receive credit and much satisfaction for their contribution to their roles.

I have held several Revelation Seminars and it never occurred to me that if I were ordained I would be more effective, etc. Ordained or not, preacher, teacher, leader, administrator, local deaconess or organizing vacation Bible School ... all are important, all are for the glory of God and fellow men ... women.

As for women being second-class citizens for generations; yes in many cultures it has and is true. Ordaining a woman as a pastor will not change one single thing, those things cannot be eradicated.

Through the centuries both men and women have all suffered many horrendous abuses during their lifetime. Certainly I would not have wanted to have lived in many cultures in various times in history as a man ... just as i would not have wanted to have lived under many circumstances as female. life is not, nor has been fair to either gender.

just sayin ..............

[Overaged]

Not responding to any one post:

I read and reread the post on this thread and can't quite decide what bothers me about it. FWIW I have known female Adventist Pastors who did a good, effective job. I am sure have been a source of encouragement and a blessing to many. I don't know that being ordained would make a difference in their commitment to their calling.

What I have observed is that it takes two people to effectively minister to a congregation. Most wives of pastors have awesome responsibilities and are a valued addition to the ministry. It is more difficult for the husband of a female pastor to take on the same role. Notice I did not say they could not or do not, just more difficult.

Women have served many valued roles in the development of the church. I am very proud of the women I have observed through the years for endless hours of work. And, I believe they receive credit and much satisfaction for their contribution to their roles.

I have held several Revelation Seminars and it never occurred to me that if I were ordained I would be more effective, etc. Ordained or not, preacher, teacher, leader, administrator, local deaconess or organizing vacation Bible School ... all are important, all are for the glory of God and fellow men ... women.

As for women being second-class citizens for generations; yes in many cultures it has and is true. Ordaining a woman as a pastor will not change one single thing, those things cannot be eradicated.

Through the centuries both men and women have all suffered many horrendous abuses during their lifetime. Certainly I would not have wanted to have lived in many cultures in various times in history as a man ... just as i would not have wanted to have lived under many circumstances as female. life is not, nor has been fair to either gender.

just sayin ..............

X 100

I share your concern about such topics. I have always wondered what all the fuss was/is really about. I am not singling out anyone in particular when I say this, but I think that the habit many have of trying to use the Bible to support women being ordained is often futile. Most times we see someone do this, the Bible texts are not being interpreted in their intended light. The Bible is such a strong supporter of women in ministry; I just don't know what difference "ordaining" would make. Pointing to women that were prophetesses, is one example where people have drawn the false conclusion that this "must" mean, they were political/spiritual leaders, and so women today should be "ordained." There is something wrong with that picture.

[M. T. Cross]

Anyone ever stop to think about all the people that could be reached by women pastors that would not be reached otherwise? In the end is that not your goal? Reaching people with your Gods message?

[Woody]

Quote:

To be a pastor in the employ of the SDA church, does a pastor not need to be ordained?

No EC. Many are functioning just fine without ordination. But it is only withheld from women for some unbiblcal reason which I have yet to figure out.

There are always lots of cries that women just don't need it and why should they want it. REALLY? Why should the church demonstrate an injustice? The issue here is the church and not the women.

Here is the picture:

God is ordaining women for his work. Man (The Church) is refusing to accept and recognize what God is doing.

[M. T. Cross]

Quote:

To be a pastor in the employ of the SDA church, does a pastor not need to be ordained?

No EC. Many are functioning just fine without ordination. But it is only withheld from women for some unbiblcal reason which I have yet to figure out.

There are always lots of cries that women just don't need it and why should they want it. REALLY? Why should the church demonstrate an injustice? The issue here is the church and not the women.

Here is the picture:

God is ordaining women for his work. Man (The Church) is refusing to accept what God is doing.

So they get paid full time wages and they are assigned a church to be a pastor of without being ordained?

[Woody]

Quote:

So they get paid full time wages and they are assigned a church to be a pastor of without being ordained?

The pay is not really the issue. Perhaps a side bar. NO they do not get full pay. And no they do not get full recognition nor responsibility compared to a man. A man who is not ordained though - does have full responsibility as a pastor.

[M. T. Cross]

Quote:

So they get paid full time wages and they are assigned a church to be a pastor of without being ordained?

The pay is not really the issue. Perhaps a side bar. NO they do not get full pay. And no they do not get full recognition nor responsibility compared to a man. A man who is not ordained though - does have full responsibility as a pastor.

I think it does become the issue in a round about way. If they are a fully employed and paid pastor in the church then they can make their ministry their lifes work. Lets face it, people need to eat, pay rent etc. So that comes back to my original question. If they were fully recognized pastors, how many more people could they reach? People that would be much more open to a woman than a man? And in the end is that not the more important issue rather than a bunch of bickering over legalities?

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

Anyone ever stop to think about all the people that could be reached by women pastors that would not be reached otherwise? In the end is that not your goal? Reaching people with your Gods message?

Women pastors is not the point EC, its Women's Ordination that is! There are quite a few Women Pastors in the SDA church.

That actually makes it a worse sin that women are not "ordained" by the men of the SDA Church .org. In fact many of these same "male spiritual leaders" [strongly] oppose women's ordination.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

The examples of Deborah and Huldah are a sure clincher straight from the Bible. No hocus pocus needed.

neither of these two were "ordained." Nor were they pastors. The Bible specifically calls them "prophetess." My oh my oh my.

They were Ordained by God and the Holy Spirit. Oh, my oh my I believe that is a much higher Ordination than any other type. Shouldn't males who oppose such submit to the Ordination of God and the Holy Spirit?

Why do these same males who try and denigrate God's Ordination of Deborah and Huldah and other Biblical women do this in an effort to maintain an all SDA Church .org male power structure.

[Woody]

Quote:

I think it does become the issue in a round about way. If they are a fully employed and paid pastor in the church then they can make their ministry their lifes work. Lets face it, people need to eat, pay rent etc. So that comes back to my original question. If they were fully recognized pastors, how many more people could they reach? People that would be much more open to a woman than a man? And in the end is that not the more important issue rather than a bunch of bickering over legalities?

I don't think you fully understand all the issues. Not sure I can help you fully understand - if you honestly desire to.

There are only a few women pastors. Why - because the church is stifling and supressing their opportunities because of this issue. If the church were to recognize that God is calling them - then there would be more pastors who are women. Women offer a unique ministry that men are not fit for. This need has been neglected long enough. If they obtain recognition of their calling - more needs will be met by their ministry.

The issue in my mind is about spreading the gospel and prospering the church. By that I mean supporting the needs of the members we have so that they can in turn go out and spread the gospel.

It is NOT about "bickering over legalities" from the women's point. Perhaps the rest of the church is doing that. But women pastors DO need to be legitimized. For the good of the church.

[Overaged]

They were Ordained by God and the Holy Spirit. Oh, my oh my I believe that is a much higher Ordination than any other type. Shouldn't males who oppose such submit to the Ordination of God and the Holy Spirit?

Why do these same males who try and denigrate God's Ordination of Deborah and Huldah and other Biblical women do this in an effort to maintain an all SDA Church .org male power structure.

If they were ordained, the Bible still chooses to call them prophetess. Not much to argue about there.

[M. T. Cross]

Quote:

I think it does become the issue in a round about way. If they are a fully employed and paid pastor in the church then they can make their ministry their lifes work. Lets face it, people need to eat, pay rent etc. So that comes back to my original question. If they were fully recognized pastors, how many more people could they reach? People that would be much more open to a woman than a man? And in the end is that not the more important issue rather than a bunch of bickering over legalities?

I don't think you fully understand all the issues. Not sure I can help you fully understand - if you honestly desire to.

There are only a few women pastors. Why - because the church is stifling and supressing their opportunities because of this issue. If the church were to recognize that God is calling them - then there would be more pastors who are women. Women offer a unique ministry that men are not fit for. This need has been neglected long enough. If they obtain recognition of their calling - more needs will be met by their ministry.

The issue in my mind is about spreading the gospel and prospering the church. By that I mean supporting the needs of the members we have so that they can in turn go out and spread the gospel.

It is NOT about "bickering over legalities" from the women's point. Perhaps the rest of the church is doing that. But women pastors DO need to be legitimized. For the good of the church.

Well thats what I am saying in different words. There are going to be people that men will reach and there are people that women will reach. I fail to see why the church would not put that at the top of the priorty list in the whole issue.

[miz3]

I share your concern about such topics. I have always wondered what all the fuss was/is really about. I am not singling out anyone in particular when I say this, but I think that the habit many have of trying to use the Bible to support women being ordained is often futile. Most times we see someone do this, the Bible texts are not being interpreted in their intended light. The Bible is such a strong supporter of women in ministry; I just don't know what difference "ordaining" would make. Pointing to women that were prophetesses, is one example where people have drawn the false conclusion that this "must" mean, they were political/spiritual leaders, and so women today should be "ordained." There is something wrong with that picture.

1. Point number one is that if being "ordained" would make "no difference" then why do we "ordain" the males? What is the difference between an ordained male and an unordained male?

Is the SDA Church into empty rituals?

...This is about "power" and who is eligible to hold power and who is not. There is no reason not to let the females share in the "power" of the SDA Church .org that "ordination" brings.

* * *

2. Point number two is that [in] the story of Deborah [she] was "ordained" by God to be Prophet/Judge just like Samuel the Prophet/Judge. In that role the Bible [says] she lead the nation (even in war). She gave commands to all the people in Israel/Judah (males and females alike) and even gave direct commands to a general over troops in battle.

Thus, Deborah was a leader in the broadest sense. I am surprised that you are not acquainted with this story. Deborah was indeed a most comprehensive leader "ordained" by God to Lead His People. [To say she was] "simply a prophetess" ... seems to be a pejorative ... attempt to denigrate and demean the Chosen of God.

[Overaged]

Well thats what I am saying in different words. There are going to be people that men will reach and there are people that women will reach. I fail to see why the church would not put that at the top of the priorty list in the whole issue.

[Woody]

Quote:

You make a lot of good points here EC. You must be an "ordained" forum member!

I don't know if EC has been ordained - but in my mind - he has certainly been adopted.

[Overaged]

Quote:

You make a lot of good points here EC. You must be an "ordained" forum member!

I don't know if EC has been ordained - but in my mind - he has certainly been adopted.

[M. T. Cross]

Quote:

You make a lot of good points here EC. You must be an "ordained" forum member!

I don't know if EC has been ordained - but in my mind - he has certainly been adopted.

I just can't escape you people AAAAAAHHHHHHHH

[Overaged]

No; you can't so you may as well submit.

[doug yowell]

Anyone ever stop to think about all the people that could be reached by women pastors that would not be reached otherwise? In the end is that not your goal? Reaching people with your Gods message?

Going down the "gender neutral" path has an almost guaranteed negative effect on reaching several classes of people.Mormons for one, the majority of evangelical Christians who continue to teach (what Ellen White and SDA's once historically taught)the male headship role, devout Roman Catholics, and Muslims. All these groups uphold the differences in roles that WO seeks to destroy. If reaching people is our only concern then the numbers of those who will be offended will dwarf the number of those we could otherwise reach.

[doug yowell]

Not responding to any one post:

I read and reread the post on this thread and can't quite decide what bothers me about it. FWIW I have known female Adventist Pastors who did a good, effective job. I am sure have been a source of encouragement and a blessing to many. I don't know that being ordained would make a difference in their commitment to their calling.

[Lysimachus]

Has anyone checked out the laborynth of materials offered on this site?

http://www.womenministrytruth.com/

[Woody]

Your kidding right?

Doug Batchelor?

He has already proven himself to be totally bogus on this topic.

Semen? Give me a break.

[Woody]

A Facebook friend made this comment:

On the matter of the family dynamic, I am pursuaded that Ellen White has presented a biblical perspective when she writes that before the fall Adam and Eve were equal co-rulers. Then after sin, for the sake of unity one must submit to the o...ther--the default being the woman's submission to the man. Nevertheless, Paul writes that the wife and the husband have authority over each other (1 Cor 7:4). Paul also refers to submitting to one another through fear of God (Eph 5:21). I conclude, based on biblical principles, that husbands should submit to the truth when it comes through their wives; and wives should submit to truth when it comes through their husbands. This is why immediately after affirming headship (1 Cor 11:3), Paul goes on to discuss guidelines for the ministry of men and women through prayer and prophesy (1 Cor 11:4).

[Naomi]

Woody, this is an excellent analogy, and both husbands and wives certainly should listen to each other when truth is presented. There are many forms of ministry. Not all are called to the same type of ministry. Which is a good thing.

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

Anyone ever stop to think about all the people that could be reached by women pastors that would not be reached otherwise? In the end is that not your goal? Reaching people with your Gods message?

Going down the "gender neutral" path has an almost guaranteed negative effect on reaching several classes of people.Mormons for one, the majority of evangelical Christians who continue to teach (what Ellen White and SDA's once historically taught)the male headship role, devout Roman Catholics, and Muslims. All these groups uphold the differences in roles that WO seeks to destroy. If reaching people is our only concern then the numbers of those who will be offended will dwarf the number of those we could otherwise reach.

If reaching other believers in the same God as yourself is the number one priority then you may have a point. Seems like a wierd way to go about things to me, but its not my church so not really my problem.