Is the Investigative Judgment in the Bible?

[miz3]

Since some of us got off topic when John317 tried to show that the Investigative Judgment was in the Bible and the Bible only, I thought we ought to give John317 another try at this.

Hopefully, Lysimachus and I and others will use some discipline and not stray from this narrow topic this time around.

We all know that John317 and I do not agree on this issue at all, however, John317 does not deserve to have his thread trashed and derailed. He deserves to have his "full say" and to allow us to stick to topic in rebuttal.

I hope we have the discipline to make this a good discussion.

Ok John317 and others the floor so to speak is yours.

[BobRyan]

The IJ -- is plain as day in Daniel 7.

The court sat, the books were opened... judgment is passed in favor of the saints.

In Dan 7 this happens after the break up of the Roman empire and it is the event that ends the persecution of the saints - and brings on the 2nd coming.

[Dr. Rich]

What? Please explain why this is court sits at the time you suggest. Show the verses too.

[BobRyan]

The 4th beast of Daniel 7 is the Roman empire and its division into 10 kingdoms. In Daniel 7 the courtroom scene is not until after the rise and division of the 4th empire.

This 4 empire sequence and the division of Rome in Daniel 7 - is not just an SDA POV - all protestant scholars admit to this point.

In Daniel 7 it is the completion of that judgment that terminates the persecution of the saints and brings on the inheritance of the saints - (according to the chapter).

in Christ,

Bob

[Dr. Rich]

Notice that the fourth beast (Rome) was destroyed forever while the other three (leopard, lion and bear) were allowed to continue? So how can Adventists say that Rome is the wounded head that causes the whole world to follow the first beast of Rev. 13? Either it (Rome) is gone or not and this prophecy is a lie. I will stick to what the bible says on this.

As for Rome being judged, it appears to me that it was judged just as Sodom was judged. The judgment for the 10 nations of iron and clay is yet to happen. First up will be those who are found in the inner court as found in Rev. 11:1, the 144k and the ten virgins. Next comes those found outside the court yard (all of the nations) and that happens during the time of trouble. I do not see any investigative judgment here at all.

[miz3]

The IJ -- is plain as day in Daniel 7.

The court sat, the books were opened... judgment is passed in favor of the saints.

In Dan 7 this happens after the break up of the Roman empire and it is the event that ends the persecution of the saints - and brings on the 2nd coming.

since what you interpret is not actually there.

[12tribes]

1 Peter 4:17

(17) For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Leviticus 23:27-29

(27) Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD.

(28) And ye shall do no work in that same day: for it is a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before the LORD your God.

(29) For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people.

[Nic Samojluk]

BobRyan wrote:

“The IJ -- is plain as day in Daniel 7.”

There are many references to judgment in the Bible, but it is wrong to conclude that all of them are talking about the final judgment. We should avoid mixing apples with pears!

“The court sat, the books were opened... judgment is passed in favor of the saints.”

Precisely! I just took the time to read the entire chapter of Daniel and found not a single reference to the judgment of the saints there. The judgment in said chapter is in favor of the saints.

“In Dan 7 this happens after the break up of the Roman Empire and it is the event that ends the persecution of the saints - and brings on the 2nd coming.”

Yes! In Daniel 7 the fourth beast and the little horn are judged—not the saints!

[Nic Samojluk]

12tribes wrote:

“1 Peter 4:17

(17) For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?”

Sorry, but it says “the time has come”—not the time will come. We have no right to apply this verse to 1844

[miz3]

1 Peter 4:17

(17) For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Leviticus 23:27-29

(27) Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD.

(28) And ye shall do no work in that same day: for it is a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before the LORD your God.

(29) For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people.

1. Your text in 1Peter 4:17 is not talking about the Investigative Judgment. Where in this Peter text does it say that it is referring to the Investigative Judgment?

This is just text plucking and hoping that something sticks. The Investigative Judgment is not in the Bible.

2. Your Leviticus text is also not applicable because it does not say anything about any "judgment" whatsoever let alone an "investigative judgment". This Leviticus text says absolutely nothing about God "investigating" the Children of Israel.

It says the Children of Israel were to "afflict" their souls. It does not say that God will "afflict" their souls. God is not investigating anything. It is also not saying that some "outsiders" were to "investigate" the Children of Israel to see if God made the correct decision in regard to those "not cut off".

Even references to the "type" (Leviticus) don't hold up the unBiblical doctrine of the Investigative Judgment.

[Dr. Rich]

12tribes wrote:

“1 Peter 4:17

(17) For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?”

Sorry, but it says “the time has come”—not the time will come. We have no right to apply this verse to 1844

Problem is that Jesus told the Jews that their house had become desolite, meaning that God was no longer involved in their house. Jesus was to have been the capstone for that original house, but they rejected the cap stone. Therefore, Israel/jews became just another nation without God.

But Dan. 2 presents a prophecy where this cap stone becomes the corner stone for a NEW house, one that will NOT end and this is the Kingdom of Heaven that began in 1843-44, the Adventists. However, the Judgment for this house does not come until just before the time of trouble.

[Lysimachus]

Tried sending a PM, but your PM box is full miz3.

Sorry miz3, I'm just no longer in the mood for discussing this topic again any time soon. =/ Too warn out, too many things on the stove, I'll let you win for now.

Maybe another time. Blessings =]

P.S. I'll just simply say that nobody has been using 1 Peter 4:17 to prove that the IJ begins in 1844. The text is being used only as a "principle", to show that God starts judging the righteous first. In other words, this principle is what helps us to see that it makes every bit of sense to say God starts judging the righteous first in 1844. Not that the righteous weren't judged before that--just like Israelites were judged throughout the year. But 1844 represents a global, corporate, judgment of God's people, as a "whole", just like in the camp of Israel. It is a "special" judgment, at a more "intense" level. We get 1844 from the day-year principle and Daniel 8:14. Also the fact that the judgment is set in Daniel 7 after the Little Horn, and since this little horn ended in 1798, and 1844 comes after, and the 2300 days stretches beyond 1798 all the way to 1844, bingo.

[phkrause]

Sorry miz3, I'm just no longer in the mood for discussing this topic again any time soon. =/ Too warn out, too many things on the stove, I'll let you win for now.

Maybe another time. Blessings =]

P.S. I'll just simply say that nobody has been using 1 Peter 4:17 to prove that the IJ begins in 1844. The text is being used only as a "principle", to show that God starts judging the righteous first. In other words, this principle is what helps us to see that it makes every bit of sense to say God starts judging the righteous first in 1844. Not that the righteous weren't judged before that--just like Israelites were judged throughout the year. But 1844 represents a global, corporate, judgment of God's people, as a "whole", just like in the camp of Israel. It is a "special" judgment, at a more "intense" level. We get 1844 from the day-year principle and Daniel 8:14. Also the fact that the judgment is set in Daniel 7 after the Little Horn, and since this little horn ended in 1798, and 1844 comes after, and the 2300 days stretches beyond 1798 all the way to 1844, bingo.

This should never come down to a winner or a loser Lysimachus. We should all be willing to listen each other out. For the reasons why we believe one way or the other. That doesn't mean that we don't continue to studying into the issue. Absolutely none of us can say we know more than the next person. For me, I see it the same way that you do. I've read quite a number of books on the subject, studied it for many years. Have always accepted the prophecies and nothing yet has changed my mind, but that doesn't mean that others can't have there own opinion, be it different than mine. So to me if I live the life that Jesus calls for us to live the IJ has no power over us, just like the judgement that a lot of people are so nervous about. It has no power, because Jesus stands up for us, in front of God.

[Woody]

Quote:

This should never come down to a winner or a loser Lysimachus. We should all be willing to listen each other out. For the reasons why we believe one way or the other. That doesn't mean that we don't continue to studying into the issue. Absolutely none of us can say we know more than the next person. For me, I see it the same way that you do. I've read quite a number of books on the subject, studied it for many years. Have always accepted the prophecies and nothing yet has changed my mind, but that doesn't mean that others can't have there own opinion, be it different than mine. So to me if I live the life that Jesus calls for us to live the IJ has no power over us, just like the judgement that a lot of people are so nervous about. It has no power, because Jesus stands up for us, in front of God.

[Lysimachus]

I agree with you pkrause. :)

[Kevin H]

Amen!!!

[BobRyan]

In Vs 22 - "Judgment is passed in favor of the saints" - this is the "who" of the Judgment.

The teaching of the chapter is very clear - the saints will be persecuted until that judgment ends. Anyone who read the newspaper for the past few decades - knows beyond a doubt that Christians are still being persecuted.

the when where and how - is in the Courtroom scene - where the court sits and the books are opened.

It is pretty easy when you read it right from the chapter.

in Christ,

Bob

[Lysimachus]

In Vs 22 - "Judgment is passed in favor of the saints" - this is the "who" of the Judgment.

The teaching of the chapter is very clear - the saints will be persecuted until that judgment ends. Anyone who read the newspaper for the past few decades - knows beyond a doubt that Christians are still being persecuted.

the when where and how - is in the Courtroom scene - where the court sits and the books are opened.

It is pretty easy when you read it right from the chapter.

in Christ,

Bob

Either that, or Daniel 7 is just comic book fiction!

[jasd]

QR frame:

Principles:

1st principle is – Gd sealed the book of Daniel until...

2nd principle – one cannot determine beforehand, expository doctrine based upon that ‘imagined’ of the book of Daniel until...

3rd principle – one ought not keep repeating expository doctrines based upon that wrested beforehand of the book of Daniel’s unsealing...

4th principle – one must discard all ‘interpretations’ of the book of Daniel based upon that wrested before the ‘unsealing’ of the book of Daniel...

5th principle – one can only receive that which was given prima facie, with the understanding that its ultimate unveiling is sealed until...

6th, 7th, 8th, etc...

[12tribes]

QR frame:

Principles:

1st principle is – Gd sealed the book of Daniel until...

2nd principle – one cannot determine beforehand, expository doctrine based upon that ‘imagined’ of the book of Daniel until...

3rd principle – one ought not keep repeating expository doctrines based upon that wrested beforehand of the book of Daniel’s unsealing...

4th principle – one must discard all ‘interpretations’ of the book of Daniel based upon that wrested before the ‘unsealing’ of the book of Daniel...

5th principle – one can only receive that which was given prima facie, with the understanding that its ultimate unveiling is sealed until...

6th, 7th, 8th, etc...

[Nic Samojluk]

1. Your text in 1Peter 4:17 is not talking about the Investigative Judgment. Where in this Peter text does it say that it is referring to the Investigative Judgment?

This is just text plucking and hoping that something sticks. The Investigative Judgment is not in the Bible.

2. Your Leviticus text is also not applicable because it does not say anything about any "judgment" whatsoever let alone an "investigative judgment". This Leviticus text says absolutely nothing about God "investigating" the Children of Israel.

It says the Children of Israel were to "afflict" their souls. It does not say that God will "afflict" their souls. God is not investigating anything. It is also not saying that some "outsiders" were to "investigate" the Children of Israel to see if God made the correct decision in regard to those "not cut off".

Even references to the "type" (Leviticus) don't hold up the unBiblical doctrine of the Investigative Judgment.

Yes, we invented the doctrine of the IJ in order to pretend that we were partially right after all. We tried to convince the on looking world that we were right on the date but wrong only on the event. Did we convince anybody outside our church? No religious organization accepted our pretense.

The correct text we should have used is found in the book of Revelation where the prophet is ordered by the angel to swallow a little book and discovered that it was sweet in his mouth but bitter in his stomach. To me this means that we were wrong both on the date and the event.

It was predicted that we would be wrong; we can still be humble and admit that we were totally wrong, and in doing so, we would recognize that the angel was right, while we were wrong.

The angel ordered the prophet that he must preach again. This is where our movement is recognized as fulfilling the prophetic prediction.

[Nic Samojluk]

Problem is that Jesus told the Jews that their house had become desolate, ...

According to the book of Daniel, the desolation would come to an end at the completion of the 2300 days prophecy. I will rather trust the angel Gabriel than humanly invented interpretations.

[Lysimachus]

Nobody invented the doctrine of the IJ Nic.

God brought it to us.

I know you refuse to believe this, but it's the truth whether you like it or not.

It's a tough message to swallow, and Satan and his hosts are out to destroy it. Why is this? Because he knows it is a message that is tailored by God to purify His bride and ready her for the Second Advent. But without this message, the importance of afflicting our souls before Jesus comes, and having that sense of urgency of how soon He is going to come is lost.

Are you desiring on the side of those forces not made with flesh and blood that are assailing it?

[Nic Samojluk]

Lysimachus wrote:

“Nobody invented the doctrine of the IJ Nic. God brought it to us.”

Here is what God gave us:

A. He sent his angel to tell us that the book of Daniel would be sealed.

B. He sent his angel again to tell us that our Adventist experience would be sweet in our mouth but bitter in our stomach: “9So I went to the angel and asked him to give me the little scroll. He said to me, “Take it and eat it. It will turn your stomach sour, but in your mouth it will be as sweet as honey.” 10I took the little scroll from the angel’s hand and ate it. It tasted as sweet as honey in my mouth, but when I had eaten it, my stomach turned sour. 11Then I was told, “You must prophesy again about many peoples, nations, languages and kings.”

C. Instead of believing what the Lord had said, we pretended that we were partially right and partially wrong—right on the date but wrong only on the event.

D. We intentionally ignored the fact that the result of our experience would be bitter—not bitter sweet!

E. Had we been willing to be humble enough to accept the verdict of the angel, our credibility would have been enhanced in the eyes of the world.

F. The angel said: “You must prophesy again.” This we did, but have so far been pretending that we were partially right in our 1844 experience.

“I know you refuse to believe this, but it's the truth whether you like it or not.”

Truth is what the angel predicted—not what we invented!

“It's a tough message to swallow”

Yes, it is tough to admit that what the angel said was right. Our religious pride is the real obstacle. The entire world prefers to believe what the angel predicted. We are the only ones pretending that we were partially right, thus willfully ignoring what he predicted.

[Lysimachus]

11Then I was told, “You must prophesy again about many peoples, nations, languages and kings.”

C. Instead of believing what the Lord had said, we pretended that we were partially right and partially wrong—right on the date but wrong only on the event.