Is the Investigative Judgment in the Bible?

[Nic Samojluk]

skyblue888 wrote:

“He had been presenting the merits of His blood before the Father for 1810 years and when He entered the Most Holy place in 1844 He did not stop doing that but at the same time He began the work of investigative judgment.”

Does this mean that for 4,000 years there was no atonement for human beings in heaven? Could it be that the service in the Holy place symbolized God’s work in the Old Testament and the Most Holy place the work Jesus has been doing since his ascension to heaven?”

”As one studies the type in the Old Testament sanctuary he finds that there was the daily atonement and the great day of atonement at the end of the year.”

Again, the daily work of atonement for me is a fit symbol of what God always does for repentant human beings since Adam fell from grace, and the Great yearly Day of Atonement what Jesus has been doing since he went back to God’s presence.

I see no meaning in the 1844 date except for what the angel predicted in the book of Revelation 10:9-11. The angel said that the eating of the scroll would produce a sweet taste in the mouth but bitter in the stomach, after which there was a need to preach the message all over gain.

What we have done was to turn what was supposed to be bitter into a bitter-sweet experience. We pretended that we were partially right and partially wrong: right on the date by only wrong on the event. Should I reject what the angel said and start believing what you are saying?

For me Daniel 8 provided the starting point for the 2300 days prophecy; otherwise the reference to Alexander the Great and his battle against Medo-Persia looses its significance. If we use the Battle of Granicus in 334 B.C. we end in 1967 with the great victory of Israel over the Arabs which gave the Jews access to the place of their sanctuary and the Wall of Lament.

[Nic Samojluk]

Lysimachus wrote:

“But you see Nic, it is Biblical. And it was not invented by Ellen White either. The Lord did show her in vision, however, that the conclusion of the Pioneers was correct. Hiram Edson's mind did not open up to these glorious truths in the cornfield for naught. God was in the movement.”

Can you share with me where Ellen White claimed that this was shown to her in vision? Do you believe that every time she said “I was shown” it implied a visionary experience? Didn’t she admit that as her spiritual experience grew, the visions tended to diminish? Didn’t she also claim to have learned a few things which allowed her to make some judgments based on said past experience?

”Have you read Dr. Froom's Volume 4, of Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers? In that book, he provides a chart of approximately 75 expositors the world over who put the terminus of the 2300 days in the 1840s. What blew my mind when reading some of the works of these expositors was that some of them actually believed that the termination of the 1840s did not mark the commencement of the Second Advent, but rather marked the beginning of a "revival and restoration back to apostolic times, and a cleansing of God's people".”

I have a tough choice to make: either believe what I find in Rev. 10 or else accept what human tradition has been teaching. I find there that our experience would be BITTER—NOT BITTER SWEET. For me this means that we were wrong both on the date and the event.

”In this respect, some of their conclusions were even more accurate than William Miller. Many of these men had no connection with Miller nor knew who he was, as they were writing their conclusions from different continents and different countries in Europe. It was a world-wide impression concerning the 2300 days.”

I hear you! This means that the bitter experience described in Rev. 10 applies not only to Adventists, but to all those who figuratively ate the scroll described in the book of Revelation.

”He is in the Most Holy Place performing a work of Investigative Judgment. For simplistic purposes, this terminology is a healthy way to look at it, regardless of the details.”

Does God really need to investigate anything—for 2,000 years? Human beings can do better than this with the power of computers. Besides, since the polluting work described in Daniel is the work of Israel’s enemies, are we justified in applying this to God’s people? Do I find a disconnect here? Israel’s enemies desecrate the Temple and God’s people are judged? Does this make logical sense?

[skyblue888]

At some point in time as He ministers there it begins for the living and some feel we have been into the living for some time.

Gibs

________

Yes, there have always been those among us who have thought and still do think that but it is only conjecture on their part because the parable of Matt.22 and of the Net both place the judgment of the living at the end of the loud cry coinciding with the great final test.

And Mrs. White in C.O.L. 122,123 in very clear terms places it there as well by saying that when the mission of the Gospel is completed, the judgment will accomplish the work of separation and this can only be at the time of the great final test.

Here are the statements:

"When the mission of the Gospel is completed, the judgment will accomplish the work of separation."

"When the work of the Gospel is completed, there immediately follows the separation between the good and the bad, and the destiny of each class is forever fixed."

The only judgment taking place at the end of the loud cry is the judgment of the living and it separates the good from the bad and their destiny is forever fixed.

In the parable of the Wedding Garment (Matt.22) we are told that at the end of the third call (loud cry) the king comes into the room to examine the guests. This is the judgment of the living proper.

Can you see this or it's just me seeing things that are not there?

sky

[Overaged]

Sky; that is a good point re Mat 22...

[skyblue888]

skyblue888 wrote:

“He had been presenting the merits of His blood before the Father for 1810 years and when He entered the Most Holy place in 1844 He did not stop doing that but at the same time He began the work of investigative judgment.”

Does this mean that for 4,000 years there was no atonement for human beings in heaven? Could it be that the service in the Holy place symbolized God’s work in the Old Testament and the Most Holy place the work Jesus has been doing since his ascension to heaven?”

”As one studies the type in the Old Testament sanctuary he finds that there was the daily atonement and the great day of atonement at the end of the year.”

Again, the daily work of atonement for me is a fit symbol of what God always does for repentant human beings since Adam fell from grace, and the Great yearly Day of Atonement what Jesus has been doing since he went back to God’s presence.

I see no meaning in the 1844 date except for what the angel predicted in the book of Revelation 10:9-11. The angel said that the eating of the scroll would produce a sweet taste in the mouth but bitter in the stomach, after which there was a need to preach the message all over gain.

What we have done was to turn what was supposed to be bitter into a bitter-sweet experience. We pretended that we were partially right and partially wrong: right on the date by only wrong on the event. Should I reject what the angel said and start believing what you are saying?

For me Daniel 8 provided the starting point for the 2300 days prophecy; otherwise the reference to Alexander the Great and his battle against Medo-Persia looses its significance. If we use the Battle of Granicus in 334 B.C. we end in 1967 with the great victory of Israel over the Arabs which gave the Jews access to the place of their sanctuary and the Wall of Lament.

Nic, 1967 means nothing except it was a battle between an Arab Gentile and a Jew Gentile. In A.D.34, as a nation, the Jews sealed their rejection of God's mercy and since then it is only individually that they can lay hold on the Gospel of the merits of Christ to find their peace with God. 1967 was not a fulfillment or prophecy in any way, shape, or form. Since the death of Christ the Israel of God are made up of those who are Christ's, those who trust in the merits of His infinite sacrifice in order to be accepted of God and greatly blessed with the gift of the Holy Spirit, the gift that brings all other blessings in its train. These are the Israel of God today as shown in the last verses of Rom.2 and Gal.3:29 and Hebrews 12.

The starting point for the 2,300 day prophecy is 457 B.C.

2,300 years later takes us to the Advent Movement in 1844. It is unimpeachable from a Bible standpoint.

You may not agree with that right now but may be you will some day.

From the time Jesus began His Priestly ministry in the first apartment of the sanctuary above and until 1844 He had been making atonement for transgressions by pleading the merits of His shed blood before the Father. In 1844 He did not stop that work. But when the mission of the Gospel shall be completed, He will make the final atonement and the sins of all the righteous will be transfered from the sanctuary onto Satan the scapegoat.

sky

[skyblue888]

Yet, we must not forget that only those among the Jews who trusted in the merits of a Saviour to come were the true Israel of God.

It is the everlasting Gospel of the merits and righteousness of Christ.

Through the sacrificial system, Adam trusted in the merits of a Saviour to come and today we are to trust in the merits of a Saviour who has already come and who is pleading these divine merits before the Father in our behalf.

In the end, "All Israel will be saved," that is, all who have trusted in the merits of the world's Redeemer from Adam to the last individual who will accept this Gospel message at the end of the loud cry.

sky

[skyblue888]

Sky; that is a good point re Mat 22...

Glad to hear that. After all, the parable unmistakably places that judgment at the end of the third call which represents the loud cry to the world.

sky

[skyblue888]

SD, do you know what it means to be settled into the truth both intellectually and spiritually?

sky

[John317]

Thank you for starting this thread on the Investigative Judgment. I just saw this for the first time only a few minutes ago. I hope it can continue without being halted like all the other discussions on this topic have been. I hate to keep having to reinvent the wheel, so to speak.

I think the reason we haven't made progress on these discussions up to this time is that before anyone can present the evidence, the exchanges tend to get bogged down on side-issues that have no direct bearing on whether the IJ is found in the Bible. For that reason, I would like to propose that we not quote or talk about Ellen White on this discussion. I hope that at a later time, we can have a discussion where the subject will be the sanctuary doctrine in Ellen White's theology and writings.

[John317]

... the belief supported by Ellen White regarding Jesus moving from the first apartment into the Most Holy Place in 1844 to present his blood to his Father is not biblical.

Let's be sure we at least have a common understanding of what SDA's believe regarding the significance of Christ's moving from the first apartment into the Most Holy Place in 1844. What do Seventh-day Adventist say is meant by this move? Why is the move important in their theology?

[John317]

Let's look again at some of the Bible evidence for the Investigative Judgment. I am posting it here again in order that members don't need to go back to the previous thread on this topc.

By Bradley Williams

A Bible Reading On the Investigative

Judgment

Source:

http://www.investigativejudgmentgospel.org/Page22.html

Who is the instigator of persecution and most of our troubles? What is his purpose?

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast

some of you into prison, that ye may be tried ... be thou faithful unto death, and I will give

thee a crown of life.

The Devil has put us on trial. Who does he draw into this litigation? Who does he

recognize as the judge?

Rev 12:9-10 ... The ... serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan ... the accuser of our

brethren, who accused them before our God day and night (NKJ)

Does this mean that Jesus participates in this testing of believers?

Rev 2:23 ". . . And all the churches shall know that I am [Jesus Christ] He who searches [the

Greek word means "investigates"] the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of

you according to your works. (NKJ)

Note: The word usually translated “searches” in Revelation 2:23 is the Greed word

ereunao. Gerhard Delling, the contributor to the unquestionably authoritative Theological

Dictionary of the New Testament for the entry on Ereunao and Exereunao, states, “In the

NT [ereunao] has the common sense of ‘thorough investigation’. ”

What was God's judgment of Job? Who brings Job up for consideration?

Job 1:8 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no

one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil."

(NIV)

Will Jesus similarly bring us up for consideration?

A. Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross .... 22 In the body of

his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his

sight.

B. Romans 14:10 ... we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. (Cf. Rev 20:12)

Is God's judgment of us the same as His assessment of Job?

A. Eph 1:3-4 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ ... he chose us in him

before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. (NIV)

B. 2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we

might be made the righteousness of God in him. (Cf. Rom 8:4;1 John 2:5; 3:3, 9)

What happened to the charges of the law that condemned us?

Col 2:14 He canceled the record that contained the charges against us. He took it and

destroyed it by nailing it to Christ's cross. NLT

Note: There are two that bring charges against us: First God’s law judges us (Rom 2:12),

and condemns us to death (2 Corinthians 3:7a, 9a). The second condemnation comes

from the Devil (Rev 12:10). Col 2:14 addresses itself to the first condemnation, that of the

law of God. Through faith, Christ’s death cancels the charges leveled by God’s law

against each of us.

Continued

[John317]

Continued

How do we become blameless and upright?

Heb 10:14-16 ... By one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made

holy. The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this... he says: "This is the covenant I will make

with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write

them on their minds." (NIV)

Does Satan accept God's judgment?

Job 1:9-12 "Does Job fear God for nothing?" Satan replied. "Have you not put a hedge

around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his

hands ... But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse

you to your face."

Note: Satan not only questions Job's integrity; more importantly, he blasphemously

brings into doubt the judgment of God. In other words, he suggests that God's judgment

is faulty. He implies that God is a poor judge of character. This insinuates that God is not

qualified to pass judgment on anyone—Not even Satan!

Does God agree to Lucifer's challenge to investigate Job's integrity? Who carries out

the investigation?

Job 1:12 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but

on the man himself do not lay a finger." (NIV)

What will Jesus do with the information gained in the investigation of believers?

A. Rev 2:23 ". . . And all the churches shall know that I am [Jesus Christ] He who searches

[investigates] the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your

works. (NKJ)

B. Rom 2:6-7, 16 God "will give to each person according to what he has done." To those

who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal

life.... This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus

Christ, as my gospel declares. (NIV)

Does our salvation concern itself with the question of our being qualified for, or worthy

of eternal life?

A. . . . . They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy. Rev 3:4 (NIV).

B. And we pray ... that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and may please him in every

way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God. Col 1:10 (See

also: Eph 4:1; Phil 1:27; 1Thes 2:12; 2Thes 1:1,1 NIV).

What is the Devil's motive for seeking a conviction against us for unworthiness?

Rom 2:3 And do you suppose this, 0 man, when you pass judgment upon those who

practice such things and do the same {yourself,} that you will escape the judgment of

God? (NAS)

What is God proving in the testing of believers?

A. Deut 13:3 ... The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all

your heart and with all your soul. (NIV)

B. Ps 7:8 The LORD shall judge ... according to my integrity within me. 9 ... for the righteous

God tests the hearts and minds. (NKJ)

C. 1 Pet 1:6 ...you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith

... though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of

Jesus Christ, (NKJ)

D. Deut 8:2 Remember how the LORD your God led you all the way in the desert these forty

years, to humble you and to test you in order to know what was in your heart, whether or

not you would keep his commands. (NIV)

Continued

[John317]

Continued

What is the evidence that God's judgment of His faithful is right and Satan is wrong?

A. And we pray . . . that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and may please him in

every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God. Col 1:10

B. II Th 1:3-7 ... Your faith is growing more and more, and the love every one of you has for

each other is increasing. . . we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the

persecutions and trials you are enduring. All this is evidence that God's judgment is right,

and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are

suffering. (NIV)

What other verse indicates that God is looking for a progressing experience?

1 Tim 4:15-16 Meditate on these things; give yourself entirely to them, that your progress

may be evident to all. Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in

doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you. (NKJ)

Does God openly consider cases of His saints, as He did with Job.

A. Dan 7:9 "I watched till thrones were put in place, And the Ancient of Days was seated

.... 10 The court was seated, And the books were opened. NKJV

B. Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross 22 to present you holy

and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23 if ye continue in the faith ...and be

not moved away from the hope of the gospel.

What indication do we have that Satan will treat the saints to an investigation of their

integrity in the last days?

Dan 7:25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High, Shall persecute the saints

of the Most High .... 26'But the court shall be seated, And they shall take away his

dominion, To consume and destroy it forever. 27 Then the kingdom and dominion, And

the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven, Shall be given to the people, the

saints of the Most High. NKJV

Is there any further indication that the saints living at the time of the Second Coming

and the first resurrection, will be investigated through tribulations like Job?

A. Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for

the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since

there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be

delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that

sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life ...

B. Joel 2:1 ... Sound an alarm ... for the day of the LORD cometh ... 2 A day of darkness and

of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness ...

C. Amos 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the

day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.

D. Matt 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of

the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

E. Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against

them; 22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the

most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

What is the real issue in Satan's war against the saints?

Rev 13:6 ... [satan's medium] opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme

his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

Note: "The word 'blasphemy' is practically confined to speech defamatory of the Divine

Majesty” thus to “speak contemptuously of God.” (Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical

Words, Copyright © 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers.). Blasphemy is a "vilification" of God

(Strong's Greek-Hebrew Dictionary). Satan's blasphemy against God is a defiling

defamatory attack on the heavenly sanctuary. He vilifies God's character (His name),

and suggest doubts about the integrity of God's plan of salvation (His tabernacle) and

those He judges to be suitable to "dwell in heaven."

Continued

[John317]

Continued

What is necessary for God's heavenly sanctuary?

Heb 9:23 Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be

cleansed with these [sacrifices], but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices

than these. NASD

When would God undertake the cleansing of His heavenly sanctuary ?

Dan 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the

sanctuary be cleansed.

Note: The cleansing of Satan's "blasphemy against God ... his name ... his tabernacle ...

and them that dwell in heaven" through his insinuation that God has a faulty judgment of

character in describing those He chooses to dwell in heaven as “blameless”, began in

1844 in fulfillment of this time prophecy. The process of cleansing is a process of judgment

that is typified in the day of atonement rituals described in Leviticus 16. As demonstrated

in the following diagram the time prophecy found in Daniel 8:14 is reminiscent of five

other biblical time prophecies (Gen 6; Gen 15:13,14; Jer 25:11,12; Dan 9:24-27; Rev

20:2,7-15) that announce the beginning of a time of divine judgment.

What other evidence do we have that there would be a pre-advent judgment?

A. Revelation 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the

everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and

kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to

him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth,

and the sea, and the fountains of waters .... 14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud,

and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden

crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

B. Rev 13:7 ... it was given unto him [human governments under Lucifer’s power] to make

war with the saints, and to overcome them ... 14 And [he] deceiveth them that dwell on

the earth ... [into making] an image to the beast .... 16 And ... to receive a mark ... 17 And

that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark ...

C. Rev 2:23 ". . . And all the churches shall know that I am [Jesus Christ] He who searches

[this word means "investigates"] the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you

according to your works. (NKJ)

Note: God’s investigative judgment of His people begins before the Second Coming.

And just as it was with Job the pre-advent judgment is actually a trail of God’s own

judgment of character. Through the great afflictions of His faithful people sometime after

1844, and just before the Second Coming, it is proven that God’s judgment is right. Even in

times of greatest extremity, when the threat level is at its highest, God’s children maintain

true integrity of faith. “All this is evidence that God's judgment is right, and as a result you

will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 2

Thessalonians 1:5 NIV” The last greatest time of testing and trouble is the investigative

judgment of those who live to see the Second Advent. At this time persecuted saints with

the integrity of Job vindicate God's "name, his tabernacle, and them that dwell in

heaven."

What encouragement do we have as we face the investigative judgment of the living?

1 Cor 10:13 .... God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear ....

What is Jesus' ultimate goal concerning Lucifer?

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself

likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the

power of death, that is, the devil.

1. Jesus' death provides for our justification,

2. Justification gives God the legal right to give us the time and opportunity (a time of

probation before the final judgment) to prove that we are His loving and loyal children,

3. Overcoming challenges to our loyalty to Christ proves our integrity and vindicates the

rightness (righteousness) of God's judgment,

4. Proof of the rightness of God’s judgment settles the question of whether God is just in

destroying the Devil for his sins, while forgiving us for our sins and giving us unending life.

At the conclusion of the investigative judgment of the living saints, what will God point

out to Satan?

Rev 14:12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God

and their faith in Jesus. NAS

Job 2:3 .... He [/she] still maintains his[/her] integrity, though you incited ...[their] ruin ..."

(NIV)

Note: Revelation 14:12 indicates that the saints overcome their last trial.

What happy news will Jesus then give to the faithful?

Rev 22:12 ... Behold, I come quickly ...

Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be

my son.

Matt 25:34 ... Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom...

[John317]

While the previous four posts certainly do not exhaust the Bible evidence for the Investigative Judgment, they do show the basic biblical evidence for it. Naturally, as we go on in the discussion, more Bible evidence will be brought out.

I propose that in this discussion we work toward either affirming the evidence because it is true or rejecting it because it is false. It is not enough merely to claim that this evidence is biblically valid, but by the same token it is not enough to claim that the evidence is false and invalid. It's important and necessary to show that the evidence presented above is supported by Bible-- or to show good reasons for believing the evidence does not exist.

Let's admit right at the beginning of the discussion that the arguments and evidence is never going to convince everyone. Therefore simply because someone says they remain unconvinced doesn't mean the evidence is not in the Bible. All we can hope for is that those who read the discussion will judge the evidence and arguments fairly after careful study and comparison with the Scriptures.

[jasd]

>>But when the mission of the Gospel shall be completed, He will make the final atonement and the sins of all the righteous will be transfered from the sanctuary onto Satan the scapegoat.<< [ed.jasd]

Heb 7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people’s: for this he did once when he offered up himself.

Does not the above text, as well others, state that Jesus Christ made Atonement at the cross by His death and resurrection once, as necessary, and no more?—being a fitting and complete sacrifice... Why then would the posit be proffered that the Atonement of Jesus Christ consisted in part – the laying of the sins of man upon Satan at some unknowable date?—as text informs that it was Him, Jesus Christ, upon whom the sins of man were laid – and not some repository of the Sanctuary, and not Satan...

2 Cor 5:21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

And as Isaiah prophesied in chapter 53:6, speaking of Jesus Christ, “...and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.”

I dunno, I have a difficult time envisioning Satan as a goat without spot and blemish, such as was required to be brought to the Tabernacle upon the Day of Atonement, and upon whom a lot was to be cast. That typology would identify him as equally pure as the Saviour Redeemer of man – especially should man’s sins be laid upon him – as Writ states that it is the Saviour Redeemer of man who would bear the sins of man.

[Gibs]

The high Priest entering the Most Holy place at the end of each yr. in the type pointed to the Great Day of atonenment when the One who is the True High Priest who would do it once and for all for all time. That of course is Jesus Christ.

At near the end of the age of 6,000 yrs. the Great Day of At One Ment must be done.

Personally I have no doubt 1844 is the beginning of that time. 1844 then to the consumation then being the time of the end for sin and this age.

More can be said and realized on this. This takes in a lot of Biblical understanding.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[skyblue888]

Gibs, just for clarification, Do you mean to say that between His ascension and 1844, while He was in the Holy Place, Jesus made no atonement for sin, and that the atonement is only a Most Holy Place affair?

sky

[jasd]

Re AD 1844: I’ve seen mentioned several times the thinking that 1844 represents the commencement of both an 'Atonement Day' and the beginning of a ‘Judgement’ per se. Without withstanding that date and the assumption that it represents an ‘Atonement/Judgement’ date – I think it only fair that one who advances that thought – first proffer an argument showing when and by what manner the ‘Blowing of the Trumpets’ (First day of the Seventh month) was fulfilled, as that must first occur before the Day of Atonement. Otherwise, one may be correct to surmise that

since there is a New High Priest and a New Covenant with new laws – the applicability of those new laws now apply.

Of course there are other interpretations, which may prove more acceptable...

[Gibs]

All cases the way I see it from Adam up collected in the Heavenly Sanctuary and Our High Priest went in to minister there and cleansed it of the cases to be laid on the scape goat or that were His for His Salvation. Salvation was never stopped or held up at any time. That closed door thing caused a lot of fuss. EGW finally got it on track to them. I don't even remember how that went.

I'm certain of myself that judgement begins with the house of God and most of the church may be judged. We have no way of knowing that for sure but those outside the camp are given more time. And I'm not a historicist. How can I be when I read this verse?

Re 1:3 ¶ Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

If it is all history what is the sense in reading and hearing it as we know the time is at hand?

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gibs]

It was thought by some that when Jesus went into the Holy of Holies the door was closed to salvation which was not true. The door to salvation merely went to where He was in the Most Holy. None had a thing to worry about, our Lord and God is very capable of taking care of business and this sin business I'm sure has a top priority.

Any way that is the short of it.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[jasd]

Quote:

Quote:jasd

there is a New High Priest and a New Covenant with new laws – the applicability of those new laws now apply.

Edit: a New Order, a New High Priest, and a New Covenant with New Laws - the applicability of those New Laws now apply.

[skyblue888]

Here is my understanding of the plan of salvation in the light of what I have studied from the Bible and the SoP.

The sacrifice of Christ upon the cross was the condition for the atonement. It was perfect and complete. It was not to be repeated. It was a once and for all time offering. But that was not the atonement. The atonement is not a one time thing. It is continuous until a final atonement is made. No atonement was made by Christ until He began His priestly ministry in the first apartment of the sanctuary above. It takes a Priest to make atonement. This is what brother Crozier was shown in vision and was confirmed by Mrs. White who was shown by the Lord that Crozier had the true light on the atonement.

Crozier explained from the Scriptures that while on earth Christ could not be a Priest. Heb.8:4. On the cross He was the slain victim, not the Priest. But when He ascended up on High He began the atonement by pleading the merits of His shed blood before the Father. When He entered the Most Holy in 1844 He continued to plead the merits of His blood in behalf of sinners but He also began the work of investigative judgment which when finished He will make the final atonement.

So the atonement has two phases. The first phase takes place in the first apartment and the second and final phase takes place in the second apartment. When the final atonement shall be made, the sentence will be pronounced: "He that is righteous, let him be righteous still, and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And him that is unrighteous, let him be unrighteous still; and he that is unholy, let him be unholy still." Rev.22:11.

Of course, this judgment is only concerned with the professed people of God.

I believe the reason why some are questioning our doctrine of the IJ is because of the delay. The judgment of the dead began in 1844 and should have been followed by that of the living. But that did not happen on account of unbelief on the part of the people of God. G.C.457,458.

There has been a long delay. First there is to be a shaking among the people of God caused by the Laodicean message proclaimed in demonstration of the Spirit in latter rain power followed by the loud cry to the world and at the end of the loud cry there will be the final shaking, caused by a test, the great final test.

The judgment of the living is not a long protracted event. It takes place at the end of the loud cry. The great final test will separate the good from the bad, the foolish from the wise, the wheat from the tares and their destiny will be forever fixed.

Those who successfully pass the great final test, (death decree) without flinching, will automatically pass the scrutiny of the judgment of the living and will receive the final seal. The bad fish will be thrown back into the sea, that is, they will go back to where they came from and the good fish will be prepared to enter the time of Jacob's trouble.

sky

[cheddar]

Re AD 1844: I’ve seen mentioned several times the thinking that 1844 represents the commencement of both an 'Atonement Day' and the beginning of a ‘Judgement’ per se. Without withstanding that date and the assumption that it represents an ‘Atonement/Judgement’ date – I think it only fair that one who advances that thought – first proffer an argument showing when and by what manner the ‘Blowing of the Trumpets’ (First day of the Seventh month) was fulfilled, as that must first occur before the Day of Atonement. Otherwise, one may be correct to surmise that

since there is a New High Priest and a New Covenant with new laws – the applicability of those new laws now apply.

Of course there are other interpretations, which may prove more acceptable...

Good point! ...but don't expect a good answer.

[Lysimachus]

And that is precisely one of the many reasons the trumpets cannot be future, because the Great Day of Atonement began in 1844. Although principles of those judgments will repeat, and resound, arching to the 7 last plagues.

Hey guys, the math doesn't lie! 2300 begins in 457 and ends in 1844. If you have a problem with the Great Day of Atonement beginning in 1844, you still have to deal with the math, and the math will never give you peace on this matter.

If you don't believe the Day of Atonement has anything to do with 1844, then answer me this:

What happened in 1844 then? Something else? What was significant about the termination of the 2300 years?

I look forward to any alternative explanations of what might have taken place at the terminus of the 2300 years.

(This question does not apply to Nic, as we already know his interpretation)