Is the Investigative Judgment in the Bible?

[BobRyan]

Quote:

BobRyan wrote:

“The IJ -- is plain as day in Daniel 7.”

There are many references to judgment in the Bible, but it is wrong to conclude that all of them are talking about the final judgment. We should avoid mixing apples with pears!

“The court sat, the books were opened... judgment is passed in favor of the saints.”

Precisely! I just took the time to read the entire chapter of Daniel and found not a single reference to the judgment of the saints there. The judgment in said chapter is in favor of the saints.

You realize you just contradicted yourself in those two sentences above.

in Christ,

Bob

[John317]

...There is no literal sanctuary in heaven ...

It's your opinion against the testimony of men such as Moses, Isaiah, Daniel, and John, all of whom saw it. John saw Jesus in the Holy Place of the heavenly sanctuary and then later He was shown the heavenly sanctuary:

Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail. (Rev. 11: 19)

Could you explain how God's temple in heaven could be opened if it doesn't exist? Is the ark of God's covenant also non-existent?

Hebrews 9:24 says, "Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf."

The text is saying that the earthly sanctuary was only a representation of the sanctuary which is in heaven. The heavenly sanctuary is actually more real than the one that used to be on earth.

[BobRyan]

God said in Heb 8:1-5 that there IS INDEED a heavenly sanctuary in heaven - and SD says that there is not.

Choose you this day the source you will believe friends.

in Christ,

Bob

[Kevin H]

Thus God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail. (Rev. 11: 19)

Seen the way you want me to see it, I ask you about just one triviality, You are talking about things existing and happening ‘in heaven’ … therefore, What is this, ‘in heaven’, “flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail”? Could you explain how’s that “God's temple in heaven”?

The "Flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and earthquake and heavy hail" are Old Testament symbols indicating God pressent in person. Thus it is simply saying that the Lord is in his holy temple. No more and no less.

You have a problem of wanting to use a part of the truth against the rest of the truth. The heavenly sanctuary is both literal and a poem. You see the poem part but use this truth against the truth of the litteral part. Thus turning your half truth into a lie.

[Nic Samojluk]

Lysimachus wrote:

“So truly Nic, with all due respect, your argument does not impress me. I find it extremely unconvincing. It misses the point, and gets hung up on letters and words, and not concepts.”

I am not trying to impress you but rather to share with you and other readers the way I read Scripture. The best way to avoid getting the wrong conclusion is to pay attention to the context.

“Yet they are told to "prophesy again".”

Exactly! Why? Because we ignored what Jesus had said about the Second Coming. Only God knew the date. We pretended to know better that the Lord himself. This is why we needed to prophecy again. We did prophesy again, but refused to admit that we had made a big blunder. Miller was more humble and rejected his own interpretation. We did not! It is high time that we do this!

“The book was made to be "sweet" in the mouth, indicating that God expected something sweet to happen in 1844.”

You seem to be twisting the true meaning of the text. The sweetness was the result of rejecting what Jesus said about his Second Coming. This is why it ended in bitterness after the little scroll had been digested.

“Why? Because it was based on an experience that corresponded to an actual prophetic event, though the understanding of the nature of that event was hampered.”

The context does not allow for such a jump. The angel was talking about things happening in Palestine and the Jewish Temple—not the heavenly Temple. You are mixing apples and oranges. An earthly power was responsible for the pollution of an earthly sanctuary. Jumping to the heavenly sanctuary and the judgment of God’s people violates the simple and clear meaning of Scripture.

“While it may be bitter in the stomach, the angel seems to suggest that it is still sweet in the mouth in 10:9. The prophesying "again" is proof that the bitterness did not continue to remain.”

You are trying to reverse the sequence of events. The chewing of the scroll came first—this is where the sweetness took place. The digestion took place in the stomach—long after the sweetness had disappeared from the mouth. You can try this next time you sit down to dinner. How long does the sweet taste last in the mouth. Does it last while the food is being digested? How about after it had been digested and it gets bitter in the stomach and you get a stomach ache?

“This prophesying again began with the revelation to Hiram Edson, when the "understanding of the scriptures" was made known to him. It was very similar to what happened to the disciples. The coming of the Messiah was sweet to their mouth, but the result was bitter when He was hanging on the cross and placed in the tomb. But after Christ's ascension to heaven, their understanding of the scriptures was "opened", and now they could "prophesy again".”

You are using the wrong illustration! The angel did not say: It will be sweet, then bitter, and sweet again. The predicted experience would end in bitterness. Period! We have no right to add to what the angel said.

“These positions have been well hammered out and firmly established from Scripture and History LONG before Pastor Bohr came on the seen, I assure you. Pastor Bohr is simply highlighting what has already been firmly established my many great men whom the Lord has guided, and confirmed and reaffirmed in the writings of the Spirit of Prophecy.”

Pastor Bohr is wrong, and Ellen White was wrong! This is what happens when a prophet borrows so much without acknowledging her sources and allows readers to conclude that the material borrowed was the direct result of visionary experience.

”These doctrines stand as firm as the greatest mountains, and shall not be moved.”

You need to read not only what she borrowed from others, but also where she stated that there is much to be learned and that we will have to discard some long held beliefs. My bet is that you would readily agree with me were it not for the fact that we are so afraid of admitting that Ellen White did make some mistakes.

Think about the mistakes made by other men of God like Abraham, Jacob, Moses, David, Gideon, Peter, and others. The fact that God used men to build his cause does not guarantee their infallibility. Saints do make mistakes. This has been our problem. We pretend that Ellen White must have been perfect and free from doctrinal errors. This is rather dangerous.

The safest course is to listen to what Ellen said about our need to stick to what Scripture teaches instead of elevating her writings above the Bible.

[Nic Samojluk]

BobRyan wrote:

“You realize you just contradicted yourself in those two sentences above.”

Perhaps! But I may need your help to see it! Where is my contradiction?

[Lysimachus]

There is no such thing in heaven as a "literal sanctuary" built or made by hands, were the hands that built it, God’s.

There is "That Holy Thing" though, "His Name, Holy of Holies", "The Most Holy", "Sanctuary of His People", "GOD-WITH-US" "El-Beth-El", "Head of the Church", "JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD", "That Good Shepherd" and "SAVIOUR OF HIS PEOPLE".

Ellen White already warned of this heresy that was to come into the Church. That there is no literal sanctuary in heaven. The prophet of the Lord has spoken. The spiritual sanctuary on earth mirrors the literal sanctuary in heaven. This is the message we get from the totality of God's Word.

[Lysimachus]

SD:

It is my opinion in harmony and in accordance with the testimony of men such as Moses, Isaiah, Daniel, and John, all of whom saw The Judgment. Like John they all saw Jesus IN PROPHETIC SCENERY of ‘The Holy Place’ or ‘Heavenly Sanctuary’— more than once through successive or irregular visions and or dreams.

Thus God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail. (Rev. 11: 19)

Seen the way you want me to see it, I ask you about just one triviality, You are talking about things existing and happening ‘in heaven’ … therefore, What is this, ‘in heaven’, “flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail”? Could you explain how’s that “God's temple in heaven”?

But you ably can deny the undeniable, that The Existence of God’s Temple in heaven, Christ Jesus “when God raised Him from the dead SEATED at the right hand of God” --- the absolute Reality and Existence and Self-Being of it, does not exist neither is real or true?!

“Could your understanding be opened”, exclaims Paul, “That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of Glory, may GIVE unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation IN THE KNOWLEDGE OF _HIM_, the eyes of your UNDERSTANDING being enlightened :

THAT

YE

MAY

KNOW:

WHAT

IS

the exceeding greatness of his Power to us-wards who believe

– according to the working of his mighty Power

WHICH

GOD WROUGHT / AVAILED / TRIUMPHED IN

IN CHRIST,

WHEN

He RAISED Him from the dead

SEATING Him at his own right hand in

THE HEAVENLY PLACES”

--- of God’s POWER and the EXECUTION of his POWER

THAT ARE GOD’S JUDGMENT IN HIS OWN PRESENCE AND BEING

--- the very prophetic scenes in Daniel and John’s ‘visions’.

That also was “the ark of God's covenant” Jesus Christ on earth, “SEEN”, ‘in heaven’ NOT its real existence that was upon the EARTH.

Thus:

Hebrews 9:24,

"Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear

_IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD_ on our behalf."

There! is The Sanctuary. That! is The Sanctuary.

There! is The Judgment. That! is the Judgment.

In your own words,

“The text is saying that the earthly sanctuary was only a representation of The Sanctuary which is in heaven. The Heavenly Sanctuary is actually more real than the one that used to be on earth.”

The one on earth is gone with the winds of change; The One in heaven is “for evermore”. The one on earth is DEAD; The One in heaven “is LIFE and LIFE more abundantly”.

More spiritualistic, allegoristic, St. Augustinian, mumbo jumbo.

If there was ever a way to turn off a Dispensationalist-Futurist, this is the way to do it. You'll never convert people in the Dispensational camp, because the very arguments they use against us is that we as Adventists spiritualize away everything--even with us believing in a literal sanctuary in heaven. You're only confirming in their minds more that they are right.

I'm sorry SD, but I refuse to believe that heaven is nothing more than a bunch of floating gasses. Heaven is a real place, with real buildings, and real worlds. There is a literal Jesus, and a literal Father, and therefore, literal places where they dwell. This includes a literal sanctuary that is symbolic of spiritual things.

No need to philosophize and dance between the raindrops, stretching the scriptures away from their simplicity. They mean just what they say.

There is a literal sanctuary in heaven, just as Hebrews says.

[Gail]

I went to the funeral of my sister in law's beloved mother ...

from the SDA old age home at SEDAVEN, in the old Transvaal in South Africa today ...

Where I as a youngster ran through veld and koppies after horses, caught them, and rode them bare back, and leather thong for bridle ...

Where also lie "together till the resurrection" my father and mother, stalwart Seventh-day Adventist pioneers on this of continents most dark.

O you all so beautiful people ... I knew not how much I love you!

God! my tears! I don't cry! Not me!

Come quickly o Lord Jesus! Come!

Oh, Seventh Day- I am so sorry for your loss! May you be comforted by many hugs from Jesus during this time!

[phkrause]

Oh, Seventh Day- I am so sorry for your loss! May you be comforted by many hugs from Jesus during this time!

Amen

[BobRyan]

The question I have is how could God seal a book that everyone can read?

Obviously the answer is that only some part of the book is sealed.

It is pretty easy to read the first 6 chapters and "get the point". Every Christian Bible scholar on the planet pretty much sees that part.

So then we start with "The given" which is "not all of the book is sealed". And we can clearly read Dan 2 and 7 and 9 for example - and get the point so clearly that even when Christ came as the Messiah - both He and John spoke of the time of Dan 9 as "being fulfilled".

The other thing that is pretty obvious to all readers of the book - is that Dan 11 and 12 have at least some parts of them that are not even to this day fully unsealed.

So the one aspect that is glaringly obvious to all - is that parts of the book are sealed and other parts are not.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

I went to the funeral of my sister in law's beloved mother ...

from the SDA old age home at SEDAVEN, in the old Transvaal in South Africa today ...

I am sorry to hear about your loss. Truly we are comforted with what we find in 1Thess 4 - and yet the loss of a loved one reminds us that the sting of death is still bitter, softens only with time, and is not taken away until the resurrection.

in Christ,

Bob

[Naomi]

I went to the funeral of my sister in law's beloved mother ...

from the SDA old age home at SEDAVEN, in the old Transvaal in South Africa today ...

I am sorry to hear of your loss. Going there brough back many memories which I am sure are good. One day we will not feel the sting of death. Will pray for you and your family to feel God's comfort to be yours

[Kevin H]

My heart and prayers are with you with your loss.

[cheddar]

Obviously the answer is that only some part of the book is sealed.

It is pretty easy to read the first 6 chapters and "get the point". Every Christian Bible scholar on the planet pretty much sees that part.

So then we start with "The given" which is "not all of the book is sealed". And we can clearly read Dan 2 and 7 and 9 for example - and get the point so clearly that even when Christ came as the Messiah - both He and John spoke of the time of Dan 9 as "being fulfilled".

The other thing that is pretty obvious to all readers of the book - is that Dan 11 and 12 have at least some parts of them that are not even to this day fully unsealed.

So the one aspect that is glaringly obvious to all - is that parts of the book are sealed and other parts are not.

in Christ,

Bob

Obviously, you never read Daniel 12 where it says the whole book is sealed up not just part of it.

Historicists are so full of pride and conceit that they can’t admit when they don’t understand something – they will come up with some off the wall interpretation just to say ‘that’s it, I figured it all out’. I could respect someone who says ‘I don’t really understand this but God willing maybe some day I will’. You don’t fit that last sentence, Bob Ryan so I have no respect for you or your willingness to be part of the Christian majority.

And I have a lot of problems with the great image of Daniel 2. When the rock strikes the feet all the metals are destroyed together at the 2nd coming. Ancient Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome will not be in existence at the 2nd coming so they don’t fit. It says in verse 44 that in the days of these kings, God will set up the kingdom so the metals belong to the last days.

Nebuchadnezzar is a type of Satan so Satan is the head and the rest of the body represents the kingdom he will establish on earth. We know that Israel and Babylon were both ancient kingdoms and spiritual kingdoms in Revelation so Medo-Persia and Greece will have their counter parts in the last days as well. In fact Daniel 10 identifies the prince of Persia and the prince of Grecia as two of Satan’s angels.

There is still a lot to learn from Daniel unless of course you’re a historical adventist who has his head in the sand and refuses to grow and learn.

[Kevin H]

You have a point Cheddar, however we need to respect Historisism for being what the Holy Spirit has used to get the church through the dark ages. Now we need to restudy and build on this foundation but as we look more at the archaeology, apply the article "The Role of Israel in Old Testament Prophecy" to the specifics of the Bible and history to find out what it meant back then and thus draw correct applications to what it will mean to us. We need to be careful not to have contempt for the work that the Holy Spirit had done so far, but we have to be careful that we don't end up ending our journey and building a city settling where the pioneers fell. There is much that we have to learn and unlearn, but historisism was the method that has gotten us to where we are. The problem is not being a historical adventist. The problem is that we do tend to stick our head in the sand and refuse to continue to grow and learn.

[Lysimachus]

Obviously, you never read Daniel 12 where it says the whole book is sealed up not just part of it.

[Nic Samojluk]

Lysimachus wrote:

“I'm sorry SD, but I refuse to believe that heaven is nothing more than a bunch of floating gasses. Heaven is a real place, with real buildings, and real worlds.”

You’re right! Nevertheless, do you think that God’s Temple in heaven has a roof to protect those inside from cold weather and from rain? Do you also think that there are real pots and pans for the service there?

[Lysimachus]

Lysimachus wrote:

“I'm sorry SD, but I refuse to believe that heaven is nothing more than a bunch of floating gasses. Heaven is a real place, with real buildings, and real worlds.”

You’re right! Nevertheless, do you think that God’s Temple in heaven has a roof to protect those inside from cold weather and from rain? Do you also think that there are real pots and pans for the service there?

I honestly don't know. But if it does have a roof, and if there are real items up there, it's for decorative purposes. And their physical existence is what helps to remind us of our their spiritual meaning.

[Lysimachus]

Here are some videos I selected from Pastor Bohr's latest series, "His Way is in the Sanctuary". These TOGETHER (Notice: Together) prove the Doctrine of the Investigative Judgment. Before you consider refuting one, you must listen to all of them in their totality so that the FULL PICTURE is readily seen.

I pray that those who are opposed to the IJ doctrine will not whine and complain that they do not have time to watch all of these videos. If you don't have time, MAKE TIME! DO IT. You will receive a great blessing if you do.

So here you go:

His Way is In the Sanctuary (elected videos targeting issues pertaining to the Investigative Judgment) ` by Pastor Stephen Bohr

1. The Chronology of the Judgment (11/32):

[olger]

I appreciate the ministry of Bohr.

[Woody]

I appreciate the ministry of Bohr.

I've bought a number of Bohr's CD over the years. But of late I got turned off when he turned off the Bible and instead went to Ellen White.

Sad

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: olger

I appreciate the ministry of Bohr.

I've bought a number of Bohr's CD over the years. But of late I got turned off when he turned off the Bible and instead went to Ellen White.

Sad

And when you tell Lysimachus what the Bible says on an issue Bohr presented with the Bible turned off, then what you tell him is wrong because Bohr could not have presented it wrongly even with the Bible turned off.

[phkrause]

I agree, the guy really knows his Bible.

[Woody]

I agree, the guy really knows his Bible.

Yes he does. That's why I missed it when he didn't present it.