Fall of the Ottoman Empire on 1840

[skyblue888]

Both seals go in the forehead, even the wording is the same. The seal of God is the opposite of the mark of the beast. Are there multiple marks of the beast? Of course not. This is so plain and obvious that anyone can see, well except for you.

Cheddar

______

There are two seals called by the same name yet they are different. The first seal is the work of the Holy Spirit and it is the work of a life time during the early and latter rain but the second seal is affixed after the passing of the great final test and this is not the work of the Holy Spirit but of Christ our great High Priest when He makes the final atonement and transfers the sins of His people onto Satan the scapegoat to wander into the wilderness for 1,000 years.

1. Whereas the first seal is a work done in us, the second is a work done in the sanctuary.

2. Whereas the FIRST SEAL is a work done by the Holy Spirit, the SECOND SEAL is accomplished by our High Priest.

3. The FIRST is done during a certain period of time, the SECOND is done in a moment.

4. The FIRST prepares us for the final test, the SECOND is only given on passing the great final test.

5. The FIRST completes the work in the soul, the SECOND does nothing in the soul.

6. The FIRST is completed before the judgment, the SECOND is given only after passing the judgment.

sky

[whatisthis]

• In the year 1840 another remarkable fulfillment of prophecy excited widespread interest. Two years before, Josiah Litch, one of the leading ministers preaching the second advent, published an exposition of Revelation 9, predicting the fall of the Ottoman Empire. According to his calculations, this power was to be overthrown "in A.D. 1840, sometime in the month of August;" and only a few days previous to its accomplishment he wrote: "Allowing the first period, 150 years, to have been exactly fulfilled before Deacozes ascended the throne by permission of the Turks, and that the 391 years, fifteen days, commenced at the close of the first period, it will end on the 11th of August, 1840, when the Ottoman power in Constantinople may be expected to be broken. And this, I believe, will be found to be the case."--Josiah Litch, in Signs of the Times, and Expositor of Prophecy, Aug. 1, 1840. {GC 334.4}

Then right after, she makes the following statement which reveals that she is not just stating an event that helped to "bolster" the Millerite movement, but that the historical events that unfolded "exactly fulfilled the prediction":

• "At the very time specified, Turkey, through her ambassadors, accepted the protection of the allied powers of Europe, and thus placed herself under the control of Christian nations. The event exactly fulfilled the prediction. When it became known, multitudes were convinced of the correctness of the principles of prophetic interpretation adopted by Miller and his associates, and a wonderful impetus was given to the advent movement.” {GC 335.1}

It is difficult for me to interpret her wording to mean anything but that the event was truly a "fulfillment" of the prophecy. She was not stating that this is how the Millerites viewed it, or how Josiah Litch viewed, it, but she is stating her opinion emphatically, that it was an "exact fulfillment".

For me this quote is wonderful, never mind all the hubbub it creates! I come from a family whom it was said were converted overnight after a study with Litch. For a long time this prophecy was "trumpeted" by my ancestors. Then it seemed that the prophecy could not have been true, as their interpretation had been that it heralded something that they, with the rest of the church, felt obviously could not have happened when "the Ottoman Empire fell".

However, as it was pivotal to family history, sermons and even a book written about it were carefully kept, eventually secretly kept! I managed to find one sermon and read it and saw but did not get to read one book I believe was written about it. I remember only enough about this sermon to be intrigued, and to believe they were close, but not quite completely onto something very important in that sermon, even though the interpretation they had been embracing must have had some wrong thing in it.

Is it possible to nutshell for me the verses exactly, and the arguments approximately, anyway, concerning the verses, that were generally being made by believers at the time Ellen White wrote this remark on the topic, so I can study it for myself? Everybody seems to be aware of the kernel verses that led to this, so nobody here is bothering to write that down, since it would be a waste of time to express a given. But I would like to hear exactly what they said and believed at that time.

[Lysimachus]

Both seals go in the forehead, even the wording is the same. The seal of God is the opposite of the mark of the beast. Are there multiple marks of the beast? Of course not. This is so plain and obvious that anyone can see, well except for you.

Different seal. In fact, there are a total of 3 seals that go in the forehead:

1) Gospel Seal--Seal of the Holy Spirit

2) Sabbath Seal

3) Apocalyptic Seal -- to protect us from the 7 last plagues

Louis. F. Were did an outstanding in-depth study on this in his book, "144,000 Sealed!"

With the Mark of the Beast, it is death. You're lost. No such thing as "levels" for hell. With God's Seal, there are progressive steps throughout it.

Numerous saints died without understanding the Sabbath, and NUMEROUS saints have died and will continue to die before the 7 last plagues are poured out.

But for those who receive these additional messages, they receive these additional seals that will be necessary to go through the time of trouble, and withstand the Sunday Law Test.

[mac]

Guys,

can I remind you the topic - is there any historical NON-SDA proof that something happened on 11. august 1840?

There's a guy waiting for my response on Facebook. He thinks SDA is a cult, I can't give him links to SDA books and articles.

Also, can anyone translate the document I reffered to?

[Kevin H]

One thing that you can tell your friend is that the Seventh-day Adventist church has not taken a stand on August 11 1840. This was done by a Millerite leader and based on an interdenominational Bible Conference, the Postdam Conferences of the late 1700s and early 1800s. This was mainline Protestantism of the time. And apperently something happened that day since there were a number of athiests and others who were undecided about Millerism who joined that day because of what happened. But it has nothing to do with whether or not I'm a Seventh-day Adventist or whether or not we are a cult or not.

[mac]

Seventh-Day Adventist Bible Commentary part 7, page 796 (the and of additional note on Revelation chapter 9) reads:

"Generally speaking, the Seventh-Day Adventist interpretation of the fifth and sixth trumpets, particularly as touching the time period involved, is essentially that of Josiah Litch"

This is written well after Litch' death.

[Lysimachus]

Guys,

can I remind you the topic - is there any historical NON-SDA proof that something happened on 11. august 1840?

There's a guy waiting for my response on Facebook. He thinks SDA is a cult, I can't give him links to SDA books and articles.

Also, can anyone translate the document I reffered to?

Don't let him get away with this idea that they must have "non-SDA proof". That argument is a straw-man argument, because they know that there is no such thing.

SDA's recognize prophetic significance to this date based on 1. The prophecy in the Bible, and 2. The historical primary sources.

Thus, guess who is going to compile these sources? Why Adventists! Why would secular researchers or even non-SDA's gather up such sources to prove this date when they put no significance to this prophecy in Revelation 9 as applying to the past?

Of course not!

The argument they are making makes no sense!

Check this link out:

http://www.revelado.org/islam.htm

And go back a few pages.

Remember, it's not the SDA websites this skeptic is to worry about. Remind him that it is the non-SDA sources that the SDA's have compiled together that he has to worry about, not the fact that the non-SDA sources were compiled by SDA's. lol

[Lysimachus]

Mac,

I just ordered Treiyer's 2 books on the trumpets. You might want to do the same. Can order them via PayPal. So easy. Just follow the ordering instructions. I can't wait for these 2 books to get here. You'll find tons of primary historical sources.

Last two books at the bottom:

http://www.adventistdistinctivemessages.com/English/books.html

[mac]

Don't let him get away with this idea that they must have "non-SDA proof". That argument is a straw-man argument, because they know that there is no such thing.

[cheddar]

Good luck finding that date. I never found it in any non-adventist publication.

Try finding 538 AD – That date doesn’t exist either. Adventists selectively use history to fit their preconceived ideas about prophecy.

This is a little off topic but I just want to prove a point.

The Ostrogoths who were supposedly uprooted in 538 AD but were never completely defeated until almost 20 years after that date. Also there were supposedly 10 tribes who make up the ten horns of the beast but if we look back in history there were way more than ten - almost twenty to be exact.

Rev. 17 says that these ten horns have received no power as of yet and make war with the Lamb all the way up to the 2nd coming. They actually turn on Babylon and destroy it at the very end. So to go back in history and try to identify them is just fallacy.

[Lysimachus]

Good luck finding that date. I never found it in any non-adventist publication.

Try finding 538 AD – That date doesn’t exist either. Adventists selectively use history to fit their preconceived ideas about prophecy.

This is a little off topic but I just want to prove a point.

The Ostrogoths who were supposedly uprooted in 538 AD but were never completely defeated until almost 20 years after that date. Also there were supposedly 10 tribes who make up the ten horns of the beast but if we look back in history there were way more than ten - almost twenty to be exact.

Rev. 17 says that these ten horns have received no power as of yet and make war with the Lamb all the way up to the 2nd coming. They actually turn on Babylon and destroy it at the very end. So to go back in history and try to identify them is just fallacy.

Cheddar, you are so far behind the times, I don't even know where to begin. The defeat of the Ostrogoths in 538 A.D. has nothing to do with the commencement of the 1260 years. Get your hands on Heidi Heik's new 328 page book, "AD 538 Source Book" --- about 80% of the book is nothing but primary sources. If you really want to know what makes these dates significant, read the latest scholarship and quit listening to Revelation Seminars to pick faults that do not exist amongst true Adventist academia and scholarship.

http://www.TheSourceHH.org

[cheddar]

My point being that the ten horns have received no kingdom or power as of yet.

So they will not be relevant until the last days. Whether there were ten or twenty tribes who may have fit the description 1500 years ago is not relevant.

If I say it twice maybe it will sink in.

[Kevin H]

You have to remember that we are using certan principles of interpetation and applying those principles to more knowlege of the Bible. While we can find this principle in the Bible and in different church leaders in the past, they were pretty much dismissed by St. Augustine, but then reimplemented by Joachim of Fiore, who ended up being very influentual to the Franciscian Priests, eventually lead to Protestants (althought Augustine's beliefs also affected them and much of our debates today are the same old Augustinian vs. Franciscan debates of centuries back) leading to the Adventi movement of the 1700s (of which Sir Issac Newton was a part of) going into the Postdam Conferences (not the Potdam conference) these were conferences of Protestant leaders held in the late 1700s until 1830 where Miller and Seventh-day Adventists received a large amount of our interpetations.

Now while this was how the Holy Spirit lead us through the dark ages. However while using the same principles, there was a williness to modify according to receiving new light on the scriptures, and historisists were willing to modify until the rise of Fundamentalism in the later half of the 1800s.

We need to return to the basics without fundamentalism. We need to be flexable. I have studied in Adventist schools, and our church leadership is not hung up the Ottoman Empire falling in 1840. And there is evidence that the 1260 days that we have applied to the years 538 to 1798 are days that have already had the day-year application and that we are re-day-yearing them.

While the Papacy played a major role in the Holy Roman Empire, and is playing a major role in the growing ecomomic reunion of the world, and thus we need to see prophetic significance, they are NOT the beast in and of itself. The beast is any orginized group that replaces Christ in our lives The 7 heads are Babylon, Medio-Persia, Greece, Rome, The Holy Roman Empire (with Papal Supremicy) the deadly wound (when the crown are on the horns, independent countries) and the deadly wound being healed through economic cooperation, which we are seeing in the Counsel of Forigen Affairs and the Federal Reserve (I don't believe in the Illuninati, but there are programs out in the open that we see fulfilling the prophecy) these groups have the same people for members and have picked the Papacy as their moral voice. the 7 trumpets are the trouble we are going to soon face that will pressure final choices before the close of probation and the plagues are the results of probation being closed.

[12tribes]

Quote:

Revelation11:18

(18) And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

When the 7th trumpet opens is the judgment which began 1844, so then the 6th trumpet happens before 1844

[Lysimachus]

While the Papacy played a major role in the Holy Roman Empire, and is playing a major role in the growing ecomomic reunion of the world, and thus we need to see prophetic significance, they are NOT the beast in and of itself. The beast is any orginized group that replaces Christ in our lives The 7 heads are Babylon, Medio-Persia, Greece, Rome, The Holy Roman Empire (with Papal Supremicy) the deadly wound (when the crown are on the horns, independent countries) and the deadly wound being healed through economic cooperation, which we are seeing in the Counsel of Forigen Affairs and the Federal Reserve (I don't believe in the Illuninati, but there are programs out in the open that we see fulfilling the prophecy) these groups have the same people for members and have picked the Papacy as their moral voice. the 7 trumpets are the trouble we are going to soon face that will pressure final choices before the close of probation and the plagues are the results of probation being closed.

And here lies where you just went off the road, and hit a post.

[mac]

While the Papacy played a major role in the Holy Roman Empire, and is playing a major role in the growing ecomomic reunion of the world, and thus we need to see prophetic significance, they are NOT the beast in and of itself. The beast is any orginized group that replaces Christ in our lives The 7 heads are Babylon, Medio-Persia, Greece, Rome, The Holy Roman Empire

Doesn't Daniel 7 state that the fourth beast lasts until the end?

23Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

25And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

26But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

[Kevin H]

Maybe so Marcos, but that is what I honestly believe that an exegesis of the Bible and Mrs. White teaches. I use to feel the same way you do until in class we studied it out and the professors showed the evidence which I found quite convincing.

[cheddar]

Maybe so Marcos, but that is what I honestly believe that an exegesis of the Bible and Mrs. White teaches. I use to feel the same way you do until in class we studied it out and the professors showed the evidence which I found quite convincing.

So true. lol

If someone who knew nothing about God or the bible read Rev. 9 about the 6th trumpet they would never in a million years come up with the Ottoman empire! It’s so completely off the wall that you have to be spoon fed it from the time you’re a kid to accept it in the first place.

Everyone wants to look up to the pioneers like they were these great spiritual leaders but the more I study the things they actually believed – it’s like wow, what were they thinking. Histoicists are so legalistic and condemning and would excommunicate anyone who doesn’t tow the party line. They act more like catholics than christians.

[Kevin H]

Careful Cheddar: Historisists is how God guided us through the dark ages. What I advocate is using the Historisist's principles as we approach modern exegesis and discoveries in archaeology, history, linguistic studies. We can either say stuck in traditon before these discoveries, or move on with these discoveries. Our pioneers just took the findings to the Postdam (spelling?) conferences of the late 1700s to 1830, which was a study of the top scholars of the time.

We need to realize that our church actually started before Miller. We should point to either Biship Athanasius, or since his ideas were lost some, but then we had Joachim of Fiore, and our faith goes from Joachim through the Franciscan Priesthood, into a stream of Protestantism leading to the Advent movement of the 1700s (of which Sir Issac Newton was a member) to the Postdam conferences to Millerism to our Pioneers. Joachim, the ancient Franciscans and Newton would be very comfortable in our church today. Our church is their church molded by history and continued Bible study, but built on their foundation.

My views are based on what our Seventh-day Adventist scholars are pointing out from continuing study of the findings of archaeology, history, linguistic studies etc.

We need to study more Old Testament eschatology, how God could have finished the work long err this, see how the prophecies could have been fulfilled in a local context and see how it is reapplied. The article in "The Role of Israel in Old Testament Prophecy" is crutial. Studying the Biblical books in the context of the principles in that article is how you will be able to continue growing and not set up a city at the campsite where the pioneers fell asleep.

[mac]

Kevin H,

letning at adventist schools does not guranatee you right knowledge. As a matter of fact, it can have the opposite result.

Check out this interview: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dK6TSnu1fUY&feature=relmfu

This has made 20 years ago. If things were so bad then just imagine how much worse they are now.

Divide and conquer is the slogan. We must not forget it.

[Kevin H]

Mac, yes Daniel does give four beasts, however both Stephen Haskell and Perie Windandy (spelling?) have pointed out that Daniel 2 actually has 7 parts: Head of gold, breast and arms of silver, belly and thighs of brass, legs of iron, feet of iron and clay, toes of iron and clay and an attempt for the toes to join together that end up in utter chaos.

The exegesis of Daniel 1-6 is based on Deuteronomy 4 that saw the exile as the last days. Daniel 7 and 8 are transition chapters one which still expected the end at the end of the exile and chapter 8 seeing the end as possible but since there were only 2300 days left of Babylon God's people either needed to get on the ball to spread the gospel or to have time continue. Daniel 9-12 is telling that they were going to return to the land for another 70 weeks of years (the time from David to the end of the exile, giving the land the Sabbatical years that were not kept during the monarchy) and it tells what WOULD have happened had Jesus been accepted. Jesus could have set up the kingdom with the resurection. There was not need for him to go to heaven and have a second coming.

But while God gives us possibilities, he does not force the will, but leads us into what ultamately is the best, but still is giving each generation the chance to spread the gospel in their day.

The fourth beast has the different parts, and in a sense the Roman empire has never ended. It went from Rome to the Holy Roman Empire, then sepperating into the horns (or toes) and now the horns/toes are attempting to unite.

[Kevin H]

Mac, I knew Bob Trefz since high school, I knew his parents and also knew him at Seminary, and I listened to John Osborn tapes when I was in college. While they have points that I also agree with, there are things that I just could not match with my understanding of Mrs. White and the Bible and church history. They are too colored by the views of Elder Washburn and Elder Wilkenson (if I recall corectly his mother was Wilkenson's secretary) and I've read too many SHARP letters from Mrs. White to Washburn and I think Wilkerson, but at least between Willie White and Wilkerson (that were basically the same arguments of Ellen White and Washburn) that got me away from that thinking. I can either be fair to Mrs. White and Willie White, or I can be fair to Washburn, Wilkerson, Trefz and Osborn (although I've heard that Osborn has greatly changed his views through more study of the Spirit of Prophecy)

[Kevin H]

We have to be careful and I don't take things just because I heard a professor say so, I listen to their evidence and try to understand where they are coming from. I have read so much in the E. G. White vault especially her corrispondence with the views opposing Jones and Wagner, people who felt that Mrs. White had aposticised and said that she has rejected her prophetic call and accused her of no longer believing that she was a prophet. I have read where Mrs. White wrote to people like Washburn and others of that school of thought telling them how despite their massive quoting of her works that they did not understand her thought and what she is really teaching. Although they have later "baptized" Mrs. White and Willie into actually teaching their views after all and not longer calling them apostate, and even making it look like the 1888 Jones and Wagner tuned out to be part of their groups after all it is still the same views that they were arguing and that Mrs. White was critical of. But looking in the E. G. White vault you can trace the history of this movement, and how it is basically a carying on of ideas pre-1888 and how they opposed Jones and Wagner, then were critical of the post 1888 Ellen White calling her an apostate, and calling Willie an apostate, then move on a generation and they ignore how the previous generation had accused Jones, Wagner, White and White of aposticy and made them good members of this school of thought but sees the new generation of leaders and the apostates.

Also in this link you gave, it is talking about Ford, and I am not an "evangelical Adventist" "New Theology" person and the professors who have most impressed me are those who rejected Ford. However they were more based on Ellen White, Willie White, W. W. Prescott, A. G. Daniels, and Lynn Harper Wood, rather than the Washburn/Wilkerson approach.

[Kevin H]

I am not a big fan of these "Theologians" like F. F. Bruce and those who influenced Ford. I'm more into archaeology, people like Albright, Glick, Abraham Joshua Heshel, Lynn Harper Wood, John Bright etc. and into leaning what linquists discover. Trefz wants to make it look like there are only two choices, one clearly wrong, therefore you have no choice but to join the other. But there are a few different trends that have gone through the church.

[mac]

41And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

42And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

43And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

44And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Daniel refers to toes and feet as one kingdom. It may look like different ones but it is still ruled from Vatican. Wether we see it or not. SDAs who want to take the heat away from Papacy either are fooled or must have an agenda.