whatisthis Posted April 28, 2012 Posted April 28, 2012 What worries me is that all of us talking about this are concerned Adventist brethren, looking at this as clearly as we can see, from different angles, and trying to assess the truth. I don't want to say, "Those particular guys are in the futurist faction, I won't listen, or these guys are historicists I won't listen, or (incorrectly) these guys are "spiritualists" I won't listen!" I especially object to totally incorrect labels. Spiritualists are people who talk to spirits. These great Adventist scholars don't fit that label! But even the other labels are separating us into camps instead of letting us listen to each other, aren't they? Are they so useful? I found out there was a hidden topic going on here when I was about ten, as I mentioned, I think, earlier, and I actually left the church for many years, edgy with distrust, but that's then, and this is now. I make no apology for my present predisposition to believe that the remark in Great Controversy about brother Litch's work was on target, but I understand the questioning. I welcome questioning! I've found out that God wants us to face questions, not hide from them. I don't think breaking into faction over the issue solves it though. I think we'll only grow in understanding as we listen to each other in love-- to each other's objections, and mistakes--sometimes the key to a truth is hidden in someone's mistake about the truth, and when you turn the thing they are struggling with carefully 'round in the light of love, we'll see the truth lit up! And if I've worded this wrong, I apologize, I just love you all! And the key thing is Jesus is coming soon! I want Him to do that, don't you? Quote more later
Lysimachus Posted April 28, 2012 Posted April 28, 2012 whatisthis, I lack the time, but I will briefly state thus: The terms "Historicism", "Futurism", "Preterism", or "Idealism" (the spiritualist view) did not exist in Ellen White's day, and if they did come into use in her day, the terms were not embedded into the vocabulary of most expositors. However, I could collect NUMEROUS statements from Ellen White where she reprimands many who were placing the prophecies in the future. She often described Historicism in words, by showing how the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation were a continuous flow throughout history in an unbroken chain of events. You should read her letter to John Bell, in Manuscript Releases, Vol. 17, "Testimony Concerning the Views of Prophecy Held by John Bell" Part 1, pp. 1-23. I also recommend you read the following two articles in order for you to see the big picture of what is going on here: 1. Futurism's Incredible Journey - by Stephen Bohr 2. Futurism: The Counterfeit Prophecy - by D.S. Farris In Ellen White's day, Futurism was not that prominent yet. It was barely known, so the term "futurism" was not a term used. Over time, however, we now can look back and see the developments of these theologies, and now in order to safely make a "distinction" between them, we have found it less confusing to put labels on them. There is nothing wrong with defining an "ism". God's Bible has defined rules, and we must follow those rules. Historicism allows for much flexibility, and providing the avenues to grapple with the prophecies and compare the prophetic declarations with historical events in the past. Futurism does not allow you to compare the text with history, and Preterism is limited in the amount of history we are allowed to compare it with. I see nothing wrong with using the terms "Historicism", "Futurism", "Preterism", or "Idealism". The pioneers were famous for using "isms" in their day, despite the fact that the above terms had not been coined yet. I wouldn't get hung up on this issue whatisthis. It's not worth it. If I want to defined my beliefs as "historicism", I'm going to use the term. And if people don't like it, tough! That's too bad. I go by the Bible, and I believe historicism is in alignment with proper Biblical principles of interpretation. That's just how it is. Quote ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf
Lysimachus Posted April 28, 2012 Posted April 28, 2012 WhatIsThis, By failing to identify your view, you will find the evangelicals to hold you with little respect. They often will give up dialoging with you if you cannot provide them with a define position of your beliefs, and will then accuse you of interpreting the Bible with confused lenses with no organization to it. I've had this happen time and time again. There are 3 major ideological contenders within prophetic interpretation: 1. Catholicism (Idealism) - The Beast 2. Dispensational-Futurism (The Voice of the False Prophet) 3. Adventist-Historicism (The foundation of the 3 Angel's Messages) There is no "middle-ground" WhatIsThis. Unequivocally, NO MIDDLE GROUND! PERIOD! To take ANY middle ground, is to get cut down in the crossfire. Adventist-Historicism will be the final winner in the end. These are the 3 major theological-eschatological contenders in the great controversy. All the rest are just "sideline-distractions" from the real issues. You read those articles I provided above, and boy will you ever see what I am talking about! I have been studying these issues now for the last 13 years. This issue between these ideologies is far bigger than one even begins to imagine. Without the principles embodied in Historicism, the 3 Angel's Messages of Revelation 14 falls to pieces! And the Devil knows it! Quote ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf
Members phkrause Posted April 28, 2012 Members Posted April 28, 2012 GP I for one have always been under the impression that the fall of the Ottoman Empire came at the end of WW1. If you read the book "With Lawrence in Arabia" by Lowell Thomas. Read especially chapter 24 entitled "The Downfall of the Ottoman Empire." Here also is a link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire, just one of many that I've looked at. Please check it out and tell me what you think. Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
Lysimachus Posted April 30, 2012 Posted April 30, 2012 GP I for one have always been under the impression that the fall of the Ottoman Empire came at the end of WW1. If you read the book "With Lawrence in Arabia" by Lowell Thomas. Read especially chapter 24 entitled "The Downfall of the Ottoman Empire." Here also is a link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire, just one of many that I've looked at. Please check it out and tell me what you think. The good news is, is that 1840 has nothing to do with the downfall of the Ottoman Empire. That's not what the pioneers said, nor was it what Ellen White said. Treiyer spends a lot of time emphasizing this point. Quote ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf
mac Posted April 30, 2012 Author Posted April 30, 2012 That would be splended. Can you give me two examples? Can you give me one? Quote
Members phkrause Posted April 30, 2012 Members Posted April 30, 2012 Originally Posted By: pkrause GP I for one have always been under the impression that the fall of the Ottoman Empire came at the end of WW1. If you read the book "With Lawrence in Arabia" by Lowell Thomas. Read especially chapter 24 entitled "The Downfall of the Ottoman Empire." Here also is a link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire, just one of many that I've looked at. Please check it out and tell me what you think. The good news is, is that 1840 has nothing to do with the downfall of the Ottoman Empire. That's not what the pioneers said, nor was it what Ellen White said. Treiyer spends a lot of time emphasizing this point. Lysimachus, I've never read Treiyer, but if he also says that, than I agree, since he also claims that 1840 has nothing to do with the Ottoman Empire. Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
Lysimachus Posted April 30, 2012 Posted April 30, 2012 Originally Posted By: mac That would be splended. Can you give me two examples? Can you give me one? I'll have to take out time to go through the book sometime and collect them. I'll have to type up the quotes. Quote ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf
mac Posted May 11, 2012 Author Posted May 11, 2012 Any news? You don't need to type much. Just one example of a secular historian referring to 11. or 23. august 1840 regarding to some sort of change in Ottoman Empire. Quote
mac Posted May 11, 2012 Author Posted May 11, 2012 Any news? You don't need to type much. Just one example of a secular historian referring to 11. or 23. august 1840 regarding to some sort of change in Ottoman Empire. Quote
skyblue888 Posted July 6, 2012 Posted July 6, 2012 mac, are you the same mac from topix??? Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
skyblue888 Posted July 6, 2012 Posted July 6, 2012 Historians are not always on par with prophecy. Historians are sometimes shortsighted. They try to be as faithful as possible when they write history but they are not our final authority. They do not see as God sees. So those of us who believe in the SoP our final authority is what God has revealed. God has shown us that the sixth trumpet ended on Aug.11,1840 at the fall of the Ottoman Empire. sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
mac Posted August 16, 2012 Author Posted August 16, 2012 You cannot claim that a prophecy is fulfilled if there is no proof. What is the point of a prophecy anyway?! If God has given us a prophecy then He did it so that we could see it was fulfilled! It is quite simple logic. What is topix? Quote
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