RE: Father, Son & Holy Ghost....3 gods.

[Gibs]

As John 317 advocates (The Father and the Holy Spirit are two distinct persons), did Jesus Christ have two distinct persons dwelling within himself?

[Dr. Waite]

I will ask the question another way. As John317 advocates (the Father and the Holy Spirit are two distinct persons) did Jesus Christ have both of these two distinct persons dwelling within himself?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Why do you ask this?

It seems there are many & varied discordant views on the Bible's "one God" concept. Are we doing a good enough job explaining it to people?

But you asked if God is a committee. No one has said God is a committee, neither Ellen White nor the Bible. I'm certainly not saying that God is a committee. But God is obviously "one"-- that is, united-- but not a single, sole Person. Rather, God is Three Divine Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Do you believe Ellen White did a good job explaining the "one God" concept to people?

[John317]

As John317 advocates (the Father and the Holy Spirit are two distinct persons) did Jesus Christ have both of these two distinct persons dwelling within himself?

Let me ask you what you mean by saying the Father was in Christ.

Col. 2: 9 says that all of God lives in Christ's body. The Greek shows that it means all of God is continuously living in Christ. All of God has never stopped living in Christ's body.

When it says "all," it means ALL. God the Father has no more of the Deity living in Him than Christ has. As Ellen White says, Christ is all the fullness of the Godhead. See Evangelism 615-616.

In what way is Christ and the Father in us today? In what way is the Holy Spirit in us?

[John317]

The man born of Mary of whom God was the Father and the Father was in Him also...

What do you mean? Some people believe that Jesus Christ was the Father. They don't believe there are two distinct Persons but that they are one and the same Person. Is this what you are saying?

Was the Father born as a human being or nailed to the cross? Was the Father dead in the tomb?

I understand "the Father was in Christ" to mean that Christ is the exact representation of the Father, which is not the same thing as saying the Father was literally inside of Christ's body.

[Dr. Waite]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Waite

As John317 advocates (the Father and the Holy Spirit are two distinct persons) did Jesus Christ have both of these two distinct persons dwelling within himself?

Let me ask you what you mean by saying the Father was in Christ.

Col. 2: 9 says that all of God lives in Christ's body. The Greek shows that it means all of God is continuously living in Christ. All of God has never stopped living in Christ's body.

When it says "all," it means ALL. God the Father has no more of the Deity living in Him than Christ has. As Ellen White says, Christ is all the fullness of the Godhead. See Evangelism 615-616.

In what way is Christ and the Father in us today? In what way is the Holy Spirit in us?

We know that the Father is God and we know that God is a Spirit. Therefore the Father is a spirit. See John 4:24.

The Father's spirit (the invisible part of the Father) dwells in Jesus Christ. He is the only begotten Son of the Father.

[skyblue888]

I just read the last posts of this thread.

I understand that Christ relinquished His divine form forever and took the form of a servant in like fashion as a man and as man He daily supplicated the throne of God till His humanity was charged with a heavenly current that would connect His humanity with the divinity of the Father through the Holy Spirit. His own divinity, of course, was there the whole time but it was always held back. The Father through the Holy Spirit dwelt in Him so that Jesus could say, It is not I that doeth the works but My Father who dewlleth in me.

sky

[skyblue888]

I just read the last posts of this thread.

I understand that Christ relinquished His divine form forever and took the form of a servant in like fashion as a man and that as a man He daily supplicated the throne of God till His humanity was charged with a heavenly current that would connect His humanity with the divinity of the Father through the Agency of the Holy Spirit. His own divinity, of course, was there the whole time but it was always held back. The Father through the Holy Spirit dwelt in Him so that Jesus could say, It is not I that doeth the works but My Father who dewlleth in me.

sky

[Gustave]

The Bible (not creeds or the Catholic Church) determines what the Godhead, or Trinity, is.

[John317]

Never will I be a trinitarian believer, NEVER!

How are you defining "Trinity"? What part of the SDA Fundamental Beliefs #2 to 5 do you disagree with or believe is not biblical? Please quote the statements in the FB that you object to.

[John317]

We know that the Father is God and we know that God is a Spirit. Therefore the Father is a spirit. See John 4:24.

The Father's spirit (the invisible part of the Father) dwells in Jesus Christ. He is the only begotten Son of the Father.

Yes, God the Father is Spirit. (See the NKJV, the New American Standard Bible, and the New English Bible.)

John 4: 24 is more accurately translated "God is Spirit" or "God is spirit," although "God is a spirit" or "God is a Spirit" are also acceptable.

Why is Jesus saying this? Is He saying that God is merely one spirit among many?

Is Jesus Christ also spirit?

[John317]

[John317]

Thanks for your input, Gustave. I'm very interested in a Roman Catholic viewpoint of these things. I love Catholics and actually feel that I have many important things in common with them, despite our very significant differences.

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: Gustave

...

Ellen White avoided using the word Trinity because she was anti-Trinitarian...

An individual can't claim belief in a doctrine while at the same time.

...Making feverish affirmations that are the Antithesis of that same doctrine.

:

Gustave, no anti-Trinitarian makes statements such as the following:

1) There are three living persons in the heavenly trio.

2) Christ is Jehovah Immanuel. (Mount of Blessings, 34)

3) The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are "the great Threefold power" in heaven. (Ms. 11, 1901.)

4) Says the Godhead is "the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" and they gave Themselves to the planning and working out of the plan of redemption. (Counsels on Health, 222.)

5) Christ is the eternal, self-existent Son of God. (Ev 615)

6) The Holy Spirit is a divine person and has a personality. (Ev 616-617)

7) The Holy Spirit is "the Third Person of the Godhead." (She calls the Godhead "the Eternal Godhead.")

8) The Holy Spirit is one of Three living persons of the eternal Godhead who felt pity for the human race and planned together with the Father and Christ how to save mankind. CH 222

9)Christ was equal with God, infinite and omnipotent. Ev. 615

10) "It was Christ who from the bush on Mt. Horeb spoke to Moses saying, I AM THAT I AM." (Notice the Bible there refers to Christ as "Elohim," "Yahweh," and as "the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob."

I could make a list of literally hundreds of such clear statements from the pen of Ellen G. White, all showing that she was most certainly not anti-Trinity.

What she was, however, was opposed to many of the false teaching that are part of the Trinity doctrine as taught by some of the mainline Christian Churches. But because she opposed certain aspects of the Trinity doctrine as these groups expressed it doesn't mean she was anti-Trinitarian per se. That would be the case only if the sole Trinitarian belief is that which is believed and taught by the Roman Catholic Church and some of the other churches.

Does the fact that Ellen was not anti-Trinitarian mean that the Trinity doctrine can be established using the Bible only? We have only one text—Matthew 28:19—in support of the Trinity doctrine, and history shows that this doctrine was in fact a late development in the Christian church. Please, read the Britannica on this!

We have also the testimony of Eusebius who had the dhabit of quoting Matthew 28:19 without the threefold baptismal formula, and he argued that the current reading of said text was not in the original manuscripts. In addition, we have the historical evidence that entire libraries were set on fire in an effort to destroy old manuscripts, whicdh explains the lack of older manuscripts.

[Gustave]

Dr.Waite, Ellen White sang praises to the Holy Spirit, and she also said that when she prayed, she included the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit intercedes for you and prays for you and is involved in the answering of your prayers. When you think of it, Dr. Waite, you can't just pray to one person of the Godhead. The Holy Spirit is a part of the Godhead, right? Isn't He "the third Person of the Godhead"? Therefore it is impossible to pray to only one person of a united, unified Godhead. It's the same with trying to baptize a believer in the name of only Christ without including the entire Godhead, which consists of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

[Gustave]

Thanks for your input, Gustave. I'm very interested in a Roman Catholic viewpoint of these things. I love Catholics and actually feel that I have many important things in common with them, despite our very significant differences.

The Catholic teaching on the Trinity ( as is all Trinitarian Protestants )...

...Is that there is ONE Substance or Nature which is God.

...And within it are Three distinct Persons: Father, Son & Holy Spirit.

We call the Father 1st because He begat The Son, Eternally...

..So there would never have been a time when God the Father wasn't The Father.

..The same goes for the Son - there was never a time where the Son wasn't the Son.

..The Holy Spirit proceeds from both the Father & the Son.

..& there was never a time the Holy Spirit didn't proceed from the Father & Son.

The Eternal Word ( Christ ) Eternally did the will of The Father...

...As Scripture says this mind was in Christ eternally prior to His Incarnation.

...Therefore it is not a shock that Jesus, as Scripture says, always did the will of the Father.

The SDA's throughout the time hack of Ellen White's life...

...Categorically rejected the Unity in the One Substance.

...They developed their theology on Anthropomorphism, period.

To them the teaching that God the Father had a body of immortal flesh and bones...

...Was the most important teaching of the SDA Church.

...To say God the Father didn't have flesh and bones.

...Was to them Pantheism - they came right out and said it.

[Gustave]

Ellen White Early Writings 54.2

I saw a throne, and on it sat the Father and the Son. I gazed on Jesus' countenance and admired His lovely person. The Father's PERSON I could not behold, for a cloud of glorious light covered Him. I asked Jesus if His Father had a form like Himself. He said He had, but I could not behold it, for said He, "If you should once behold the glory of His PERSON, you would cease to exist.

Ellen said she witnessed Lucifer prior to and after his sin.....

...She clearly said He had FLESH & Jesus fit right in with the OTHER archangels so He also had FLESH.

Ellen White, Adventist Review and Herald, March 8 1906

He who denies the personality of God and of his Son Jesus Christ, is denying God and Christ. " If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father." If you continue to believe and obey the truths you FIRST embraced REGARDING the personality of the Father and the Son, you will be joined together with him in love.

Ellen White, along with every other Methodist who joined the SDA Church had to reject their Trinitarianism....

...And EMBRACE the Personality of God Doctrine promulgated by the anti-Trinitarian Pioneers.

...This was specificially detailed in their publications.

Seventh-day Adventist Signs of the Times April 22, 1875

What is'God? He is a personal, organized intelligence,' possessing both body and' parts! He is in the form of man. "What is Jesus Christ ? He is the Son of God, and is like his Father, being " the brightness of his Father's glory, and the express image of-his person." He is a personal intelligence, with BODY, parts, and passions ; possessing immortal FLESH and immortal bones.

[Gustave]

Trinity, from the Catechism

In the one Substance of the Divinity the Father is the First Person, who with His Only-begotten Son, and the Holy Ghost, is one God and one Lord, not in the singularity of one Person, but in the trinity of one Substance.

These Three Persons, since it would be impiety to assert that they are unlike or unequal in any thing, are understood to be distinct only in their respective properties. For the Father is unbegotten, the Son begotten of the Father, and the Holy Ghost proceeds from both. Thus we acknowledge the Essence and the Substance of the Three Persons to be the same in such wise that we believe that in confessing the true and eternal God we are piously and religiously to adore distinction in the Persons, unity in the Essence, and equality in the Trinity.

Hence, when we say that the Father is the First Person, we are not to be understood to mean that in the Trinity there is anything first or last, greater or less. Let none of the faithful be guilty of such impiety, for the Christian religion proclaims the same eternity, the same majesty of glory in the Three Persons. But since the Father is the Beginning without a beginning, we truly and unhesitatingly affirm that He is the First Person, and as He is distinct from the Others by His peculiar relation of paternity, so of Him alone is it true that He begot the Son from eternity. For when in the Creed we pronounce together the words God and Father, it means that He was always both God and Father.

Since nowhere is a too curious inquiry more dangerous, or error more fatal, than in the knowledge and

exposition of this, the most profound and difficult of mysteries, let the pastor teach that the terms nature and

person used to express this mystery should be most scrupulously retained; and let the faithful know that unity

belongs to essence, and distinction to persons.

But these are truths which should not be made the subject of too subtle investigation, when we recollect that he

who is a searcher of majesty shall be overwhelmed by glory. We should be satisfied with the assurance and

certitude which faith gives us that we have been taught these truths by God Himself, to doubt whose word is the

extreme of folly and misery. He has said: Teach ye all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father, and of

the Son, and of the Holy Ghost; and again, there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word,

and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one.

Let him, however, who by the divine bounty believes these truths, constantly beseech and implore God and the

Father, who made all things out of nothing, and ordereth an things sweetly, who gave us power to become the

sons of God, and who made known to the human mind the mystery of the Trinity -- let him, I say, pray

unceasingly that, admitted one day into the eternal tabernacles, he may be worthy to see how great is the

fecundity of the Father, who contemplating and understanding Himself, begot the Son like and equal to

Himself, how a love of charity in both, entirely the same and equal, which is the Holy Ghost, proceeding from

the Father and the Son, connects the begetter and the begotten by an eternal and indissoluble bond; and that thus

the Essence of the Trinity is one and the distinction of the Three Persons perfect.

The Sacred Scriptures, in order to mark the piety and devotion with which the most holy name of God is to be

adored, usually express His supreme power and infinite majesty in a variety of ways; but the pastor should, first

of all, teach that almighty power is most frequently attributed to Him. Thus He says of Himself: I am the

almighty Lord and again, Jacob when sending his sons to Joseph thus prayed for them: May my almighty God

make him favourable to you. In the Apocalypse also it is written: The Lord God, who is, and who was, and who

is to come, the almighty; and in another place the last day is called the great day of the almighty God.

Sometimes the same attribute is expressed in many words; thus: No word shall be impossible with God; Is the

hand of the Lord unable? Thy power is at hand when thou wiIt, and so on.

Meaning Of The Term Almighty"

40

From these various modes of expression it is clearly perceived what is comprehended under this single word

almighty. By it we understand that there neither exists nor can be conceived in thought or imagination anything

which God cannot do. For not only can He annihilate all created things, and in a moment summon from nothing

into existence many other worlds, an exercise of power which, however great, comes in some degree within our

comprehension; but He can do many things still greater, of which the human mind can form no conception.

But though God can do all things, yet He cannot lie, or deceive, or be deceived; He cannot sin, or cease to exist,

or be ignorant of anything. These defects are compatible with those beings only whose actions are imperfect;

but God, whose acts are always most perfect, is said to be incapable of such things, simply because the

capability of doing them implies weakness, not the supreme and infinite power over all things which God

possesses. Thus we so believe God to be omnipotent that we exclude from Him entirely all that is not intimately

connected and consistent with the perfection of His nature.

Why Omnipotence Alone Is Mentioned In The: Creed

The pastor should point out the propriety and wisdom of having omitted all other names of God in the Creed,

and of having proposed to us only that of almighty as the object of our belief. For by acknowledging God to be

omnipotent, we also of necessity acknowledge Him to be omniscient, and to hold all things in subjection to His

supreme authority and dominion. When we do not doubt that He is omnipotent, we must be also convinced of

everything else regarding Him, the absence of which would render His omnipotence altogether unintelligible.

Besides, nothing tends more to confirm our faith and animate our hope than a deep conviction that all things are

possible to God; for whatever may be afterwards proposed as an object of faith, however great, however

wonderful, however raised above the natural order, is easily and without hesitation believed, once the mind has

grasped the knowledge of the omnipotence of God. Nay more, the greater the truths which the divine oracles

announce, the more willingly does the mind deem them worthy of belief. And should we expect any favour

from heaven, we are not discouraged by the greatness of the desired benefit, but are cheered and confirmed by

frequently considering that there is nothing which an omnipotent God cannot effect.

Not Three Almighties But One Almighty

When, however, in this Article we call the Father almighty, let no one be led into the error of thinking that this

attribute is so ascribed to Him as not to belong also to the Son and the Holy Ghost. As we say the Father is God,

the Son is God, the Holy Ghost is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God; so in like manner we

confess that the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Ghost almighty, and yet there are not three

almighties but one almighty.

The Father, in particular, we call almighty, because He is the Source of all being; as we also attribute wisdom to

the Son, because He is the eternal Word of the Father; and goodness to the Holy Ghost, because He is the love

of both. These, however, and similar appellations, may be given indiscriminately to the Three Persons,

according to the teaching of Catholic faith.

[Nic Samojluk]

pkrause wrote:

“So what does this verse mean?????

Matthew 28:19 Therefore, go and make people from all nations into talmidim, immersing them into the reality of the Father, the Son and the Ruach HaKodesh,

That seems to be telling me why we do!!!!!!”

We have only one text—Matthew 28:19—in support of the Trinity doctrine, and history shows that this doctrine was in fact a late development in the Christian church. Please, read the Britannica on this!

We have also the testimony of Eusebius who had the habit of quoting Matthew 28:19 without the threefold baptismal formula, and he argued that the current reading of said text was not in the original manuscripts.

In addition, we have the historical evidence that entire libraries were set on fire in an effort to destroy old manuscripts; which explains the lack of older manuscripts.

[Nic Samojluk]

John317 wrote:

“You are absolutely correct here, Kevin H. Andreasen became a convinced Trinitarian as a result of his visit to Ellen White about 1910. Before his visit with her, he was non-Trinitarian. After his visit with her, he studied the Bible and found that it supports what she wrote.”

Does the fact that Ellen was not anti-Trinitarian mean that the Trinity doctrine can be established using the Bible only?

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: Gustave

...

Ellen White avoided using the word Trinity because she was anti-Trinitarian...

An individual can't claim belief in a doctrine while at the same time.

...Making feverish affirmations that are the Antithesis of that same doctrine.

:

Gustave, no anti-Trinitarian makes statements such as the following:

1) There are three living persons in the heavenly trio.

2) Christ is Jehovah Immanuel. (Mount of Blessings, 34)

3) The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are "the great Threefold power" in heaven. (Ms. 11, 1901.)

4) Says the Godhead is "the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" and they gave Themselves to the planning and working out of the plan of redemption. (Counsels on Health, 222.)

5) Christ is the eternal, self-existent Son of God. (Ev 615)

6) The Holy Spirit is a divine person and has a personality. (Ev 616-617)

7) The Holy Spirit is "the Third Person of the Godhead." (She calls the Godhead "the Eternal Godhead.")

8) The Holy Spirit is one of Three living persons of the eternal Godhead who felt pity for the human race and planned together with the Father and Christ how to save mankind. CH 222

9)Christ was equal with God, infinite and omnipotent. Ev. 615

10) "It was Christ who from the bush on Mt. Horeb spoke to Moses saying, I AM THAT I AM." (Notice the Bible there refers to Christ as "Elohim," "Yahweh," and as "the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob."

I could make a list of literally hundreds of such clear statements from the pen of Ellen G. White, all showing that she was most certainly not anti-Trinity.

What she was, however, was opposed to many of the false teaching that are part of the Trinity doctrine as taught by some of the mainline Christian Churches. But because she opposed certain aspects of the Trinity doctrine as these groups expressed it doesn't mean she was anti-Trinitarian per se. That would be the case only if the sole Trinitarian belief is that which is believed and taught by the Roman Catholic Church and some of the other churches.

Excellent! You made your point very well! Now the question: Should we build a biblical doctrine on the writings of Ellen White?

[12tribes]

The Bible says that God is Love. Since love is expressed in action shown to others then before any creation if God is a single being then God could not be love. God is love shows that there is one God who is united as three, God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.

[Gustave]

The Bible says that God is Love. Since love is expressed in action shown to others then before any creation if God is a single being then God could not be love. God is love shows that there is one God who is united as three, God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.

"One God" in the Unity of the Three Persons....

...The Father isn't God because He's the Father.

...The Father is God because He possesses the one Substance which is God.

...Equally as do the Son and Holy Spirit.

[Nic Samojluk]

John317 wrote:

”Brother M.L Andreason was an Arian who after reading the Desire of Ages had a life changing experience that changed his view of God which led him into the truth about the belief in the Trinity or the Godhead of Three Co-Eternal Persons.”

”The eternal Godhead—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost—is involved in the action required to make assurance to the human agent,... Manuscript, May 14, 1904, p. 45, “That They All May Be One.

”We are to co-operate with the three highest powers in heaven,—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost,—and these powers will work through us, making us workers together with God.— Evangelism, 617.”

”The three powers of the Godhead, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, are pledged to be their strength and their efficiency in their new life in Christ Jesus. Australasian Union Conference Record October 7, 1907.”

”{There are three living persons of the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit—those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will co-operate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ.—Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, pp. 62, 63. (1905)”

”The prince of the power of evil can only be held in check by the power of God in the third person of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit.—Special Testimonies, Series A, No. 10, p. 37. (1897)”

”The Comforter that Christ promised to send after He ascended to heaven, is the Spirit in all the fullness of the Godhead, making manifest the power of divine grace to all who receive and believe in Christ as a personal Saviour.{BTS, March 1, 1906 par. 2}”

You are right! Ellen White was not anti-Trinitarian. My question is: Is Ellen White the sole final authority on doctrine and the infallible interpreter of Scripture?

”In whose name are we baptized? In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost —the three highest powers in the heavenly courts. Sermons and Talks Volume Two, Page 287”

”Those who are baptized in the threefold name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, at the very entrance of their Christian life declare publicly that they have forsaken the service of Satan and have become members of the royal family, children of the heavenly King.—Testimonies for the Church 6:91.”

Is it safe to build a biblical doctrine on a single text found in the Bible? What if this text proves to be fraudulent as Eusebius claimed?

The Trinity doctrine was a late Christian development, and history teaches that entire antique Christian libraries were set on fire? Why? Why is it that all the manuscripts go back only to the time when the Trinity doctrine was forced on Christianity?

What happened to the older manuscripts? Why were the older manuscripts destroyed? We were left only with the testimony of Eusebius, and he had the habit of citing Matthew 28:19 with a single baptismal formula instead of the threefold one.

“The Holy Spirit is a person; for He beareth witness with our spirits that we are the children of God.” (Ellen G. White, Manuscript Releases, Volume 7, MR No. 487, 1906...)”

”The Holy Spirit has a personality, else He could not bear witness to our spirits and with our spirits that we are the children of God. He must also be a divine person, else He could not search out the secrets which lie hidden in the mind of God. "For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God."--Manuscript 20, 1906. {Ev 617.1}”

”And Jesus said He would give us the Comforter. What is the Comforter? It is the Holy Spirit of God. What is the Holy Spirit? It is the representative of Jesus Christ, it is our Advocate that stands by our side and places our petitions before the Father all fragrant with His merits. Reflecting Christ, p. 285.4”

Here is the way I understand this. It is based on the following passage found in John 14:

16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will bec in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

When Jesus said that he was going to send another comforter he was probably referring to himself, but now in an invisible manner. Notice that he said “he lives with you and will be in you.” Up to that point Jesus was living with them but now he would live in them. And he ended by saying: “I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.” Who would come? Jesus, to live in them. There is no biblical need to invent a Third Person in the Godhead.

I have much more to say about this topic, but I must leave it for another occasion.

[Overaged]

Nic; am I understanding you correctly here to say that there is no such thing as "The Holy Spirit;" and that Christians/Adventists are inventing this doctrine, based on just "one Bible text?"