Sometimes

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Everything we do in life can or may reflect on the character of God. The text you quoted is another reason why I avoid people who feel compelled to use the Bible for their own personal pointing stick....out of context!!!!!!

Interesting view. Jesus used quotes very often, and rather than avoiding Him, the people who felt they were being pointed at, made sure the Pointer was hung on a cross.

God blesses!

[JoeMo]

Hi Naomi!

I'll pass on the tat, but I'm thinking about another piercing in the same ear my existing piercing is in. The thing I like about piercings is that they can be removed when they are inappropriate. I'm a musician and a Bible Study leader; and am frequently asked to do special music or teach a class at conservative churches. I don't like having one strike against me as soon as I walk into the church; so I remove my piercing so the "saints"don't get upset. One can't do that with a tatoo. People have advised me to get a tatoo where no one else can see it; but why have a tatoo if you can't look at it and enjoy it? Blessings to you!

[JoeMo]

Hi Gail,

I appreciate your input. Like many other subjects addressed in scripture, there appears to be some conflict between passages. I'm sure the conflict is in my understanding; not in the infallible word of God. When I see these conflicts, I usually pray that God give me a correct spiritual interpretation of the texts. In the one you quoted (Lev. 19:28), the NIV uses the word "tatoo". Being completely honest, I cannot rectify this with Ezekiel 16. Also, this is the only place in the NIV where the word "tatoo" is used. At the very least, I personally don't think this is a salvational issue; simply one of personal preference. When God judges me, he judges my heart, not my piercing or tatoo (if I had one).

Thanks for being an objective voice of reason. I have never read a posting by you that is offesive or demeaning. That's awesome!

Blessings to you!

[JoeMo]

Hey PK,

Alright, you "busted" me. Marines still have shaved heads. I confess to a little exaggeration here. I've told myself at least a billion times to quit exaggerating!

[phkrause]

Hey PK,

Alright, you "busted" me. Marines still have shaved heads. I confess to a little exaggeration here. I've told myself at least a billion times to quit exaggerating!

I know what your saying, I guess we all tend to do that once in a while.

[LifeHiscost]

Hi Gail,

Thanks for being an objective voice of reason. I have never read a posting by you that is offesive or demeaning. That's awesome!

Blessings to you!

Not everyone has been called to be as bold, not suggesting Gail isn't, as Paul and John the baptist, who sacrificed their lives that men might repent. Most would rather live without making waves, not excluding myself. I have a tendency to shun offering my head on a platter.

God blesses!

[Naomi]

Hi Naomi!

I'll pass on the tat, but I'm thinking about another piercing in the same ear my existing piercing is in. The thing I like about piercings is that they can be removed when they are inappropriate. I'm a musician and a Bible Study leader; and am frequently asked to do special music or teach a class at conservative churches. I don't like having one strike against me as soon as I walk into the church; so I remove my piercing so the "saints"don't get upset. One can't do that with a tatoo. People have advised me to get a tatoo where no one else can see it; but why have a tatoo if you can't look at it and enjoy it? Blessings to you!

LOL I was only teasing about the tatoo ... I don't like unnecessary pain. But if I got one it would be a pretty rose. Piercings sound painful also. I have no issue one way or another but some really do overdo it IMHO

What types of music do you do?

[JoeMo]

Hi Naomi,

I do mostly worship and praise music of all genres - from tradtional hymns through Christian Rock. Last week I did "In the Garden" by Fannie Crosby; and followed it up with "He Loves Us" by David Crowder. My current favorite Christian artists are Toby Mac and Third Day. I play mostly acoustic guitar; with an occasional song on keyboard. I've been in music ministry for over 30 years.

I knew you were kidding about the tatoos and piercings; I was just messing with you. Although I personally am not offended or intimidated by people that look like painted pin cushions (friends and family members look like that); it's not for me. I'm good with one (and maybe one more) piercing. I was one of the original "hippies" from the 1960's; and some of that philosophy and life style remain with me.

I was radically conservative for my first 30 years as an Adventist. I now consider myself a "recovering legalist". We started praying consistently for the baptism of the Holy Spirit in our congregation; and He has shown up in a big way. God has revealed to us that He is much more interested in intimate relationship than theology. We've even had a few medically verified miracles (e.g., healing of a broken neck and spontaneous healing of a severe injury to a new mom caused by birth of an overly large baby). People who you would never expect to attend an SDA church (gays, lesbians, drug addicts, alcoholics, etc.) just started "showing up" at our church. The ones that stayed have been (or are being) freed from their chains by God - not by us - and have become sober and healthy Chrisians without any pressure from the congregation. All we do is unconditionally accept and love all who come to our church just as they are. Part of our mission is saving the lost; and we have a church full of people who were once lost and now found (including myself). I am so blessed to be part of a congregation where all are accepted and healed by God!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

All we do is unconditionally accept and love all who come to our church just as they are. Part of our mission is saving the lost; and we have a church full of people who were once lost and now found (including myself). I am so blessed to be part of a congregation where all are accepted and healed by God!

The words sound worthy to be emulated. However I find them somewhat misleading. According to your posts, as well as the posts of some others. Those who choose to be pharasaical, theology oriented (paying attention to considered necessary dos and don'ts)or straight laced are shown definitely not to be welcome, at least if they let it be known what they think.

Not an uncommon inconsistency within the body of Christ.

The reason I find that to be inconsistent with the stated profession above is because in order to be what is professed, one necessarily needs to allow others to think for themselves, not just if it makes ME comfortable.

The only time Jesus ever revealed Himself intolerant was when the persons He showed anger toward were, by their actions, depriving others of the right to act without coercion on the part of others, therefore blocking the pathway to the throne of God.

The God of heaven allows all to think and act in freedom, and actions or influences that restrict that freedom for others is not only inconsistent but hypocritical. God will sort out those who think wrong and act wrong, at the harvest.

“‘An enemy has done this!’ the farmer exclaimed.

“‘Should we pull out the weeds?’ they asked.

“‘No,’ he replied, ‘you’ll uproot the wheat if you do. Let both grow together until the harvest. Then I will tell the harvesters to sort out the weeds, tie them into bundles, and burn them, and to put the wheat in the barn.’”

Matthew 13:28-31 NLT

God blesses!

[phkrause]

So JoeMo, do you know CoAspen at all? Seems you are both from Colorado! I do know that sometimes people can literaly live around the corner from us and we've never met them!

[Woody]

So JoeMo, do you know CoAspen at all? Seems you are both from Colorado! I do know that sometimes people can literaly live around the corner from us and we've never met them!

He might not know him pk. I think CoA lives at a KOA. (just kidding lol)

[M. T. Cross]

Ya know.....

Oh nevermind, it would just be a waste of my time.

[Gail]

Hi Gail,

I appreciate your input. Like many other subjects addressed in scripture, there appears to be some conflict between passages. I'm sure the conflict is in my understanding; not in the infallible word of God. When I see these conflicts, I usually pray that God give me a correct spiritual interpretation of the texts. In the one you quoted (Lev. 19:28), the NIV uses the word "tatoo". Being completely honest, I cannot rectify this with Ezekiel 16. Also, this is the only place in the NIV where the word "tatoo" is used. At the very least, I personally don't think this is a salvational issue; simply one of personal preference. When God judges me, he judges my heart, not my piercing or tatoo (if I had one).

Thanks for being an objective voice of reason. I have never read a posting by you that is offesive or demeaning. That's awesome!

Blessings to you!

We're all just learning... AND if you study and you are impressed to renounce the practise, by all means, listen and obey! And some may be! But my focus at the moment is more heavier, heart stuff. If you are a recovering legalist, I suppose you can relate and appreciate.

[Gail]

Re: Piercings

That's in the Bible, too! And it was mandated by God as well (to GET the piercing!

[kailooa]

JoeMo, I am in agreement with everything you have said so far, and I thank you for your levelheadedness and candor. I find it difficult to discuss such matters without an excess of passion, so I appreciate your voice here very much.

I was going to ask the group for a scripture banning piercings or tattoos, but I decided to give up instead. Now that a verse has been offered up, I have to say... LEVITICUS? Really? I find that single verse from the Torah less than compelling. It seems that if we went by the letter of the law of the Israelites as laid out in Leviticus, there are a lot of other things we would be doing radically differently. We are not Orthodox Jews.

Also, I agree that Leviticus 19:28 is difficult to reconcile with the other verses quoted, about God adorning his beloved, especially when trying to reconcile those two conflicting verses with what people seem to think the New Testament references to the body as a temple mean. What does "honoring God with my body" actually mean? I guess I think it means something totally different than some others here believe.

To answer your question directed at someone else, olger, I don't NEED jewelry. I LIKE jewelry. Like JoeMo, I also like piercings because they are removable, and I remove my nose ring in certain situations where I feel it would be disrespectful or a possible stumbling block for someone else. However, I have noticed that my appearance (while hardly radical) is part of what enables me to relate to people outside the flock, and since I believe that God has placed me in this particular life for a reason, I am thankful for the opportunity to personally minister to people who would never, ever set foot inside a church. I certainly have not modified my appearance to buddy up to nonbelievers, but it is humbling and amazing to discover that God will find a way to use His servants in any circumstance. I am vastly grateful for any small opportunity God has given me to influence others in His direction. And I am sorry that my piercings may somehow offend some of you. I guess it is not my calling to witness to you.

I have no opinion on the body modifications of others. I don't believe it's my job to form an opinion. I don't believe it's important to police how other people look.

So I stand with those who say that man looks on the outward appearance, but God looks on the heart. You never know what's going on in someone else's life, and you are not God, so why not trust Him to stand back and do His work in others' lives?

"This is My commandment; that you love one another, that your joy may be full." I don't know the chapter and verse right off the top of my head, but reading that line sets the Heritage Singers off in my head immediately, every time!

[kailooa]

A couple more thoughts.

JoeMo said:

"If we could look through the inclusive eyes of Jesus instead of the exclusive eyes of tradional Adventism, we migh see more people in church, and more people taking hold of the destinies God has planned for them rather than intimidating and scaring them into conformity to a man-made denomination."

I say, HEAR, HEAR!!!!! APPLAUSE (but not in church!)!!!!!!

LifeHisCost posted:

"Don’t be concerned about the outward beauty of fancy hairstyles, expensive jewelry, or beautiful clothes. You should clothe yourselves instead with the beauty that comes from within, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is so precious to God." 1 Peter 3:3,4 NLT

See, to me that means don't waste time paying attention to the fashion of the day, or outspending your neighbor, trying to look better. Not that I would personally feel compelled to judge other people for appearing to do those things--like I said, God knows the heart, and I am better off focusing on my own needs for improvement. But to me, this verse does not read like a prohibition of all outward adornment.

I understand and appreciate that your interpretation may be different.

EmptyCross, I am curious as to what you were going to say. If you come back and feel fortified to join the conversation, I would like to hear your thoughts!

[CoAspen]

The issue with looking to the Bible for a 'text' to bolster a view point, is that the context is quite often forgotten. We no longer 'speak' the language of the Bible, but try to use it in present day context. Principles are what the Bible is all about, in my opinion, so we need to study further than the 'text' in order to understand the issue being described. I believe that approach is the proper way to understanding the Bible and help us to wade through, what I call, 'text splatter'! Texts, out of context, can support opposite view points quite often.

[Woody]

The issue with looking to the Bible for a 'text' to bolster a view point, is that the context is quite often forgotten. We no longer 'speak' the language of the Bible, but try to use it in present day context. Principles are what the Bible is all about, in my opinion, so we need to study further than the 'text' in order to understand the issue being described. I believe that approach is the proper way to understanding the Bible and help us to wade through, what I call, 'text splatter'! Texts, out of context, can support opposite view points quite often.

Right on ---

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

I understand and appreciate that your interpretation may be different.

Kailooa, since your responses to various posts indicates a willingness to allow individuals their right to express themselves, without rancor toward the differences to justify a desire to point out how the Word doesn't really mean what it says, I'd like to address what I believe is an important issue re: body adornment.

I have a friend who is an Adventist and a loved brother in Christ. He happens to have been born in Africa and has had the providential leading that gave him a higher education, speaking at least three languages fluently. From the knowledge I have based on statistical data from the net, he makes about $35 dollars a week. From personal conversations with him, I know he and his family of 3 others, live in a house without running water or electricity to it. When supplies for food are plentiful, he makes enough to feed his family. When there is drought, that fact becomes problematic. Many of his personal family make about 4 cents an hour working wage.

When I buy a dollar trinket to hang on my body, instead of sending the dollar to him to use as the Lord leads, some of his friends or family go without food. Sometimes for a day, sometimes longer. If I take my wife out for dinner, instead of sending the money to him, some of his friend's children's hair turns orange as a result of there bodies being constantly malnourished. If I spend a dime, thoughtlessly, some of his acquaintance's die for lack of needed medical attention. This already has been a reality for a relative of his while I've known him.

I realize this is out of context. I'm in America, they're in Africa, but they still suffer and die when I place more importance on a bauble placed on my body, or hang a pretty rag around my neck so we can be acceptable to the rich and famous.

"Inasmuch as ye have done (or not done) Matthew 25:40 NKJV

“Go home to your own people and tell them how much the Lord has done for you, and how he has had mercy on you.”Mark 5:18 Message

""I see what you've done. Now see what I've done. I've opened a door before you that no one can slam shut. You don't have much strength, I know that; you used what you had to keep my Word. You didn't deny me when times were rough."Revelation 3:8 Message

God blesses!

[M. T. Cross]

EmptyCross, I am curious as to what you were going to say. If you come back and feel fortified to join the conversation, I would like to hear your thoughts!

Well..... I am apprenticing as a tattoo artist, I have 9 tattoos and another 6 in the planning and drawing stages. Its art. Sometimes it is incredible art too. Often the stories behind the tattoos are even more stunning than the tattoos themselves.

Until a couple years ago I had multiple peircings as well. I quit wearing them cause it just got old and boring.

THe flip side to all this is that a lot of people that are tattooed and pierced look at the guy in a three piece suit and judge him based on that as well.

Judging anyone on appearance is crazy IMO

[Tallmark]

I'd hate for a tattooed person accused of something have me on the jury. I'd like to say that I would be fair, but I wouldn't be unless God works a miracle in me.

[CoAspen]

[M. T. Cross]

I'd hate for a tattooed person accused of something have me on the jury. I'd like to say that I would be fair, but I wouldn't be unless God works a miracle in me.

Why? Seriously, why? What difference does the fact that he or she has tattoos make?

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

I'd hate for a tattooed person accused of something have me on the jury. I'd like to say that I would be fair, but I wouldn't be unless God works a miracle in me.

Tallmark has stated nothing more than what is true of all of us before we are aware that the victory lies in the life Jesus lives in us.

Here is what Paul and Jesus had to say about the issue.

"But you have received the Holy Spirit, and he lives within you, so you don’t need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spirit teaches you everything you need to know, and what he teaches is true—it is not a lie. So just as he has taught you, remain in fellowship with Christ."

1 John 2:27 NLT

"So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God."Luke 18:18 NKJV

"...the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints. To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus. "Colossians 1:26-28 NKJV

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

An interesting thing happened on the way to town Thursday. About half way there, that funny sound I heard wasn't under the hood of the car. It was a tire gradually being destroyed as it was run on while flat from the moment we had left the carport. The tragedy of power steering is that one must attune themselves to the noises one hears as opposed to how the pressure of the steering wheel grabs your attention.

But just to keep this post to some degree, , Jesus had a plan in the details. Before our car had time to roll to a stop by the side of the road, a medium size, older model pickup, traveling rapidly pulled immediately in front of us and braked shortly to a halt. Upon stopping, a young man, somewhere between the age of 22-28, exited the pickup and rapidly walked back to where I was already standing by the front tire contemplating what to do next, being some 7 miles from town along the freeway.

The most distinguishing thing about this young man was a wide smile, and the second most distinguishing thing about him was, wearing a short sleeved shirt, his upper torsoe seemed to be totally covered with tatoos, too crowded together to be able to count them.

Now if I wasn't a believer in the providence of Jesus' personal care, and being a, harumph, elderly person, I might have been intimidated, but I chose to believe God's express will for my life and accepted the good intentions of this young man.

Subsequntly, except for some minor needed suggestions on my part, this angel in disguise, completely changed the tire with the emergency spare, tightened down the lug nuts, refused to take payment and after introducing himself as Alex, hurried on his way. If I hadn't met him later doing business in the same bank I was in, I would continue to maintain the possibility of his being an angel. But unless I'm wrong, angels don't do business with money.

"“Ho! Everyone who thirsts, Come to the waters;

And you who have no money, Come, buy and eat.

Yes, come, buy wine and milk. Without money and without price.

Why do you spend money for what is not bread,

And your wages for what does not satisfy?"Isaiah 55:1,2

NKJV

God Blesses!