Pacific Union and WO

[olger]

Thanks for the research, Pam.

[Tom Wetmore]

The issue is whether or not Lulu Wightman was, in fact, ordained - both YOU and Cyberguy are claiming this as fact, based on fanciful reading of a not-very-well-written book, which actually negates the idea that Mrs. Wightman was ordained.

You seem to wish away that fact. I have provided proof, though you obviously do not want to accept it, since it pokes a hole in your "evidence"...

I am not the one being petty. You'll have to look closer to home.

Have a nice day. I'll give Cindy your regards..

Petty may be in the eye of the beholder...

As is so much evident in the endless debates over this issue (not just here but in the whole church), a vast forest is entirely missed by examining the bark of one solitary tree. It is not even the whole forest missed, the tree itself seems little appreciated for what it really is.

Quibbling over this one issue misses the whole record of the the amazing work of just this one licensed female minister, Lulu Wightman not to mention the many others of her time and of the present. Go ahead and read the whole chapter. http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/called/benton-03.htm It doesn't have to be a great literary work to account for the facts which are that women have had a clear role in the gospel ministry of the Adventist Church from its very beginning. It seems the bark of ordination has so captured the attention of the present day church that the forest of this history and the present day women actively and successfully engaged in pastoral ministry is completely overlooked.

The fact is that Lulu Wightman was a minister, whether ordained or not. Don't overlook that fact.

[Tom Wetmore]

On a personal note regarding Pastor Lulu Wightman, I would surmise that my own ancestors that were among the first generation of Adventists (Millerites actually) in upstate New York knew Lulu Wightman and may well have been brought into the Adventist Church from the Millerite movement as a result of her evangelism. Or it is possible that a couple of those ancestors that were Millerite preachers that became Adventists may have worked along side of her and her husband, very much like the combined efforts of both men and women in the NT church noted by Paul in Romans 16. As is evident from what is quibbled over here, the earthly records are sketchy at best. But heaven has not missed those details, even if faulty human records fade.

"It is the accompaniment of the Holy Spirit of God that prepares workers, both men and women, to become pastors to the flock of God." - Ellen G. White

What God has wrought, let no man destroy.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

As is so much evident in the endless debates over this issue (not just here but in the whole church), a vast forest is entirely missed by examining the bark of one solitary tree. It is not even the whole forest missed, the tree itself seems little appreciated for what it really is.

Quibbling over this one issue misses the whole record of the the amazing work of just this one licensed female minister, Lulu Wightman not to mention the many others of her time and of the present. Go ahead and read the whole chapter. http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/called/benton-03.htm It doesn't have to be a great literary work to account for the facts which are that women have had a clear role in the gospel ministry of the Adventist Church from its very beginning. It seems the bark of ordination has so captured the attention of the present day church that the forest of this history and the present day women actively and successfully engaged in pastoral ministry is completely overlooked.

The fact is that Lulu Wightman was a minister, whether ordained or not. Don't overlook that fact.

If anyone would read what I wrote, it would be obvious that I gave due note of the service of Lulu Wightman.

Perhaps I am under the mistaken notion that her name was brought up in this thread as an example of an Adventist female minister who had been ordained. That was the issue I was addressing. If that was *not* the purpose of bringing up her name, then I apologize, and bow out of the thread.

(I don't think that there has been ANYONE who has said women have not had an active part in Adventist ministry.)

[Woody]

Quote:

(I don't think that there has been ANYONE who has said women have not had an active part in Adventist ministry.)

I find this argument curious at best.

What this says is: The woman can be called of God. She can even be ordained of God. But God forbid that she be recognized as having any of that and thus be ordained by men.

[CyberGuy]

Here is a picture of EG Whites ordination credentials 1885 signed by Uriah Smith,

http://adventistequality.com/frequently-...hite-ordained/#

[Stan]

She was ordained.... but no one laid there hands on her to do so. They recognized that she was called by God.

[LynnDel]

God's calling trumps man's practice. But I still am very uncomfortable with the recent proceedings.

[CyberGuy]

EG White fought to have women ordained. By the context of her statements it was most likely for deconess but in her day women were not ordained for anything in the church.

Ordination of women was frowned upon by the men in her day. EG White fought to have women ordained as doctors which also was frowned upon in her day. EG White was very much a progressive women. True EG White said the first calling was to raise ones children but after that to work for the church.

Did you realize that for the 20 or so years that she had her children and was raising them she had no visions from God. God put her prophetic ministry on hold while she raised her children. After they were raised the visions returned and her ministry continued. Which tells us how important God considers raising ones children FIRST before one works for the church.

[John317]

EG White fought to have women ordained. By the context of her statements it was most likely for deconess but in her day women were not ordained for anything in the church.

Did EG White ever fight to have women ordained to the gospel ministry-- that is, in order to become the head pastor/minister/leader of a local congregation?

[John317]

Here is a picture of EG Whites ordination credentials 1885 signed by Uriah Smith,

http://adventistequality.com/frequently-...hite-ordained/#

There's no doubt about Ellen White's having a credential. That has never been in dispute. What's been questioned is the significance of her credential, the reason she held a credential, and whether it is legitimate evidence that women should be ordained to the gospel ministry as leaders of local congregations. Did EG White herself ever give evidence that she believed her credential authorized her to do the work of a church pastor/minister?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Quote:

(I don't think that there has been ANYONE who has said women have not had an active part in Adventist ministry.)

I find this argument curious at best.

What this says is: The woman can be called of God. She can even be ordained of God. But God forbid that she be recognized as having any of that and thus be ordained by men.

Woody, I don't need you to translate anything. It is NOT what I wrote, and you have no business writing that it is. Stick with your OWN ideas and stop projecting your ideas onto others.

Some keep trying to stir up trouble -->certainly points to an agenda, personal or otherwise.

[Woody]

.

[olger]

She was ordained.... but no one laid there hands on her to do so. They recognized that she was called by God.

I'd say so.

G

[olger]

EG White fought to have women ordained.

This is patently untrue.

"We women must remember that God has placed us subject to the husband. He is the head and our judgment and views and reasonings must agree with his if possible. If not, the preference in God’s Word is given to the husband where it is not a matter of conscience. We must yield to the head.—Letter 5, 1861. {2BIO 431.5}

"Society is composed of families, and is what the heads of families make it... the heart of the community, of the church, and of the nation, is the household."

Ministry of Healing 349.

"No. 176. Who Should be Church Officers? Should women be elected to offices in the church when there are enough brethren? If by this is meant the office of elder, we should say at once, No. But there are offices in the church which women can fill acceptably, and oftentimes there are found sisters in the church who are better qualified for this than brethren, such offices, for instance as church clerk, treasurer, librarian of the tract society, etc., as well as the office of deaconess, assisting the deacons in looking after the poor, and in doing such other duties as would naturally fall to their lot. The qualifications for church elder are set forth in 1 Tim. 3:1-7 and in Titus 1:7-9.We do not believe that it is in God’s plan to give to women the ordained offices of the church. By this we do not mean to depreciate their labors, service, or devotion. The sphere of woman is equal to that of man. She was made a help meet, or fit, for man, but that does not mean that her sphere is identical to that of man’s. The interests of the church and the world generally would be better served if the distinctions given in God’s word were regarded." Signs of the Times, January 24, 1895, Vol. 21. No. 4, Pg. 3

[lazarus]

"No. 176. Who Should be Church Officers? Should women be elected to offices in the church when there are enough brethren? If by this is meant the office of elder, we should say at once, No. But there are offices in the church which women can fill acceptably, and oftentimes there are found sisters in the church who are better qualified for this than brethren, such offices, for instance as church clerk, treasurer, librarian of the tract society, etc., as well as the office of deaconess, assisting the deacons in looking after the poor, and in doing such other duties as would naturally fall to their lot. The qualifications for church elder are set forth in 1 Tim. 3:1-7 and in Titus 1:7-9.We do not believe that it is in God’s plan to give to women the ordained offices of the church. By this we do not mean to depreciate their labors, service, or devotion. The sphere of woman is equal to that of man. She was made a help meet, or fit, for man, but that does not mean that her sphere is identical to that of man’s. The interests of the church and the world generally would be better served if the distinctions given in God’s word were regarded." Signs of the Times, January 24, 1895, Vol. 21. No. 4, Pg. 3

This isn't an EGW quote.

[olger]

James?

[Gerr]

Yeah, I couldn't find that quote in my EGW CD-ROM.

[CyberGuy]

Originally Posted By: CyberGuy

Here is a picture of EG Whites ordination credentials 1885 signed by Uriah Smith,

http://adventistequality.com/frequently-...hite-ordained/#

There's no doubt about Ellen White's having a credential. That has never been in dispute. What's been questioned is the significance of her credential, the reason she held a credential, and whether it is legitimate evidence that women should be ordained to the gospel ministry as leaders of local congregations. Did EG White herself ever give evidence that she believed her credential authorized her to do the work of a church pastor/minister?

Ellen White was a very humble God Fearing women. She never fought for herself or for her rights. She did fight for the church and against errors in doctrine.

She never brought up ordination of women as pastors for or against. Women were being brought in as ministers in her day. The policy of paying women less then men went on until the 1980's when Mary Kaye sued Pacific Press for descriminal pay. The courts ruled against the SDA church forcing the Seventh-Day Adventist church to pay women the same pay that men would get doing the same job.

The church should be on the forfront of human rights and not be embarrased by having the government force the church into the 20th century of equal rights.

We have women pastors but refuse to ordain them because of the outdated attitudes of the world Church in Africa and South America.

Someday we may be drug into the 21st century by the courts. Separation of church state will not apply any more then than it did in the Mary Kaye lawsuit. Lets hope the church will come to its senses before that day comes.

[lazarus]

James?

He was asleep in Jesus by 1895.

[olger]

Bob?

Fred?

Moses?

[olger]

Earl?

Amos?

Melville?

[doug yowell]

Earl?

Amos?

Melville?

Yes! Yes! I think it was Earl!!

[Naomi]

pretty sure it was Earl ... bake Earl a pie ... Dixie Chicks can give you the ingrediants. .... sorry that was just couldn't resist

[Gerr]

But could you please provide the references to back up your claim that EGW supported WO?