In Support Of Traditional Ordination

[Overaged]

This topic is for the purpose of those not in support of women's ordination as Pastors, or Elders, to explain their viewpoints, without having to defend themselves all the time.

Any expressed viewpoints must include ALL of the following criteria:

1/ No posts allowed to "prove" that women's ordination should be allowed.

2/ Only posts in support of the traditional view of ordination for men only, when it comes to Pastor, or Elder

3/ Your posts here must contain elements of personal testimony, personal Bible study, and experience, regarding the traditional views of ordination. What are the benefits of keeping things the way they are? What are the dangers/concerns about changing things so that women can be ordained as pastor or Elder?

Find enclosed below, a scripture text speaking about the roles of men and women. How should we, who do not support women's ordination as Pastor or Elder explain this text to people? What is God's view on the roles of the two genders? is His view fair and balanced? If so why?

Quote:

1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. (KJV)

1Ti 2:13 because Adam was made first. Eve was made later. (ERV)

Or, are there other scriptures you would like to post about here that are related?

Please do so anytime!

Please, also stick closely to the stated intentions of the OP of this thread. Let the study and testimonies begin! (1 John 1:1-3)

[Overaged]

There is also another point that I would like to see people keep in mind while posting here:

Many of the arguments we are seeing arise in support of women's ordination, are focused in one sense or another, on the various spiritual gifts that women of the Bible; or, that women in the Church now, possess.

So for this post; I want to take a few minutes to just focus in a general study/survey format, on these gifts, their purpose, their function, etc.

Please find enclosed a quote from The Handbook Of Seventh-day Adventist Theology:

Quote:

Quote:

E.Purpose of the Gifts

The NT makes it clear that charismata are given for the completion of the mission entrusted to the church. That mission includes introducing the gospel into new fields (Acts 1:8), proclaiming Christ with boldness (Acts 4:31), working signs and wonders to the glory of God (Acts 2:43; 5:12–16), strengthening fellowship and the spirit of

community (Acts 2:44–47; 4:32–37), combating error with truth (Acts 6:10), and imparting the benefits of the various gifts for the nurturing of the saints (Rom. 1:11; 12:6–8; 1 Peter 4:10, 11).

In Ephesians 4:11–14, Paul emphasizes the gifts of spiritual ministries that God has given to the church, i.e., apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers. These ministries are to work together to nurture and upbuild the flock, as well as to proclaim the gospel to those outside the fold. Both clergy and laity are to participate in these ministries. As the various spiritual gifts and ministries distributed by the Spirit are employed for the salvation of souls, the church today can witness and have experiences similar to those of the early church following Pentecost.

Each individual Christian is privileged to receive the Spirit’s gifts in order to witness properly for Jesus; each member has the opportunity of using his or her gifts in the various ministries to upbuild the church.

Because charismata are given to enable the church to fulfill its mission to the world, the church of Christ is a charismatic church. Although today the word “charismatic” has become associated with ecstatic or emotional experiences during corporate and individual worship, in the NT charismatic denotes empowered for service,either individually or corporately.

Dederen, R. (2001, c2000). Vol. 12: Handbook of Seventh-Day Adventist Theology (electronic ed.). Logos Library System; Commentary Reference Series (617). Hagerstown, MD: Review and Herald Publishing Association.

[Overaged]

Personally; I remain very inspired and excited about the wide variety of ministry and spiritual gifts which are revealed in the Bible, for women.

Although there are two, specific ministry areas that seem in the Bible, to be specifically reserved for men; I have not been able to understand how this would present any kind of bias, inequality, or unjust treatment. And all for the simple reason that there is just so much available to everyone; there should not even be time to worry about such allegations.

There are a number of arguments brought forth as reasons for the ordination of women, as Pastors, or Elders, and one of the most prominent ones we see reads something like this:Quote:

"We must recognize the giftedness of women, those God-given,spiritual abilities that God has given women."

I guess it would be hard to disagree with this kind of statement, in principle; that is, unless it was being used to support a non-Biblical principle.

I don't think it is a good idea to draw our conclusions on this important subject, strictly from the trends of modern society, or from a variety of pragmatic analyses based on peceived results, rather than on Scripture. It is my solid belief that the clarity of Scripture is the best source to go to for deciding whether the Church should be ordaining women as Pastors, or not.

Certainly; I would never dream of trying to say that women should not be as involved, or even more involved in the ministry of the Church. There are 4 women, in particular, that I can think of in my own experience, and walk with God, who have been instrumental in either bringing me to Christ; or helping to keep me in Christ. Two of them are in the Bible, one is in the Church, and the other is my lovely wife.

But, there are others, who have helped me to "have faith in God;" (several from this forum over the last ten years). And so some of my ideas for this topic will be to explain a more personal aspect of women's ministry, in terms of my own spiritual walk, and women's personal ministry to me. I hope that by thus making the Bible personal, in this kind of way, will shed more light than shadow on this very important topic...

May the Lord add His blessing, to the reading of His Word!

Please feel free to PM me anytime, if you feel you would like to offer comment, correction, etc. I will post, with your permission, anything you have to share that will contribute in a positive way to this thread...

[Overaged]

Here is a very interesting viewpoint on 1 Tim 2:13 taken from Albert Barne's Notes On the Bible:

Quote:

1 Timothy 2:13

For Adam was first formed, then Eve

The apostle, in this verse, and the following, gives reasons why a woman should occupy a subordinate situation, and not usurp authority.

The first is, that she was second in the act of creation, or was made subsequent to man. The reason here assigned cannot be understood to be merely that of priority of existence - for then it would give every old person authority over a younger one; but it must refer to the circumstances of the case as detailed in the history of the creation; Gen. 1–2.

Man was made as the lord of this lower creation and placed in the garden, and then the woman was made of a rib taken from his side, and given to him, not as a lord, but as a companion.

All the circumstances combine to show the subordinate nature of her rank, and to prove that she was not designed to exert authority over the man; compare notes on 1Co_11:8-9.

[Overaged]

A Look at the Methods of Interpretation in Women in Ministry

Find an exerpt from this link below:

Quote:

Persons’ claims that they had a call from God were not sufficient. Unless they met the biblical qualifications for elder or minister, they were not to be ordained.

Ellen White strongly warned against so-called “self-sent” persons. “Men are hurried into the field who lack wisdom and judgment, perhaps not ruling well their own house, and not having order or government over the few that God has given them charge of at home; yet they feel capable of having charge of the flock.”35 Here she clearly endorsed the validity of the qualifications for leadership of elders and ministers that are listed in 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1 given nearly 2000 years ago.

Men are to be successful leaders in the “church” in their homes before they should be appointed to take care of a church congregation. Throughout her ministry she recommended that Seventh-day Adventists follow these Bible qualifications.36

Eve A Priest In Eden?

Shapes Of Ministry In The New Testament

The Laying On Of Hands

[Overaged]

The systematic and aggressive lobbying by liberal and feminist groups for the church to issue unisex ordination credentials for ordained and nonordained employees of the church; the hijacking of official church publications, including this forum, institutions, departments, and certain other organs and events of the church for pro-ordination propaganda; and the silencing, coercion, or persecution of individuals who challenge the un-Biblical practice of ordaining women as elders or pastors, is something that we should not be scared to stand up to. In many cases now; supporters of WO have become the new "accusers of the brethren," filling page after page of how horrible we are for not supporting them.

One of the most striking things this last couple of days on the forum I have noticed regarding those who are promoting WO; is how we are being told that when we ask them for evidence of something they say; we are "distracting;" and so my first question would be:

"Distracting from what?"

There is a clear agenda that is emerging, and among other things, they are trying to accuse the church of being "unjust" to women in the church, and saying that we should just agree to disagree, and still be "in unity" with one another because, as they say; "Ellen G White says so." Mrs White, they say, tells us that we don't need to agree on doctrine; and that we can still be "united." The quote being used to make this claim is as follows:

Quote:

"One man may be conversant with the Scriptures, and some particular portion of the Scripture may be especially appreciated by him; another sees another portion as very important, and thus one may present one point, and another, another point, and both may be of highest value. This is all in the order of God. But if a man makes a mistake in his interpretation of some portion of the Scripture, shall this cause diversity and disunion? God forbid. We cannot then take a position that the unity of the church consists in viewing every text of Scripture in the very same light. The church may pass resolution upon resolution to put down all disagreement of opinions, but we cannot force the mind and will, and thus root out disagreement. These resolutions may conceal the discord, but they cannot quench it and establish perfect agreement. Nothing can perfect unity in the church but the spirit of Christlike forbearance. Satan can sow discord; Christ alone can harmonize the disagreeing elements. Then let every soul sit down in Christ's school and learn of Christ, who declares Himself to be meek and lowly of heart. Christ says that if we learn of Him, worries will cease and we shall find rest to our souls." {11MR 266.1}

This one passage from Mrs White's writings are being isolated from it's context, to make it appear that we can just interpret any doctrine, whatever way we want, and still be in unity. And of course, the immediate application being women's ordination as pastors or elders.

In the next post, we will explore just why this passage from Mrs White cannot possibly mean that it is OK for people to believe women should be ordained as pastors, and still experience "unity" with those who do not support WO. When requests for evidence is labelled as "distractions" and when the Church is accused of "injustice" for not ordaining women as Pastors, then I ask, where is the unity? The next post will look at the evidence; and clearly show why this quote from EGW is being distorted way out of context. It is important to not look at evidence as distractions, because God says "Come let us reason together," and this is what God desires as we discuss Wo. May we do this in His Spirit, and for His glory.

[olger]

I appreciate this post, OA.

Those who object to the WO agenda are in harmony with the world church. And perhaps more importantly, in harmony with the teaching of Scripture.

Rejoice always,

G

[doug yowell]

Here's what the SDA Commentary (1956!)says about I Cor.14:34: "If the last phrase of v.33 is connected with v.34...the passage reads:"As in all the churches,let your women keep silence." With such a division the injunction for women to keep silence is shown to be not merely a regional restriction because of some local circumstance, but a reflection of the general custom in all the churches. That the custom was general may also be inferred from I Tim.2:11,12,where, without singling out any particular church, Paul admonishes:"Let the women learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach,nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."

Some have found difficulty in understanding this prohibition in terms, not only of our modern(1956!!)concepts of women in the church, but also of the place and service of women in Bible history...Paul himself commended the women who labored with him in the gospel(Phil.4:3) There is no doubt that women played a definite part in the life of the church. Why,then, should they be prevented from speaking in public? The answer is found in v.35.

The Scriptures teach that, on account of her part in the fall of man, woman has been assigned by God to a position of subordination to her husband (see Gen.3:6,16,Eph.5:22-24,I Tim.2:11,12, Titus 2:5, I Pet.3:1,5,6). Owing to the change in his nature by the entrance of sin into his experience, the harmonious life that man had previously known was brought to an end. No longer was it practical for husband and wife to have equal authority in the leadership of the home, and God chose to place upon man the major responsibility of making the decisions and instructing his family (see PP 58,59)."

[Overaged]

This is interesting Doug, thankyou for taking the time to share it.

I wonder; if you would please allow me to question you, sort of like "the devil's advocate;" but just for the purposes of further illustration, and how this text you refer to would support the traditional views on ordination, and roles in ministry?

Does your wife speak in church? Is it OK with you if she does? Why? Why not?

[doug yowell]

.

I wonder; how this text you refer to would support the traditional views on ordination, and roles in ministry?

Does your wife speak in church? Is it OK with you if she does? Why? Why not?

1)Ordination and roles are two different issues.

They are usually lumped together because the traditional roles of church leadership historically had been reserved for men and were given a unique status by ordination.

I posted the SDA Commentary remarks because they (and I agree with their proper application)reflect the consistency of the Scriptural instruction for both the family order and church order.

The statement by Ellen White regarding the leadership role of husbands that God ordained after the fall in order to preserve unity in the home (PP58,59)supports the traditional Biblical teaching regarding the model of the home as the proving ground for church leadership. The idea of authority (i.e. chain of command)is essential to God's order and efficiency.With the entrance of sin the previous order of leadership was made impossible, both in the home and in the church.

2)My wife has never spoken in church although I would wish that she would.She's not comfortable being up in front of either men or women much less both. She is in 100% agreement on the traditional roles of church leadership and finds women that attempt to fill the roles of "pastor" obnoxious. She does, however, have a high respect for godly women that lead other women and understand the Scriptures for themselves.

3) I have no problem with women speaking from the pulpit or teaching the Bible. They often have unique insights into the Scriptures.

Yet, this is not the sole responsibility of a pastor. Spiritual women look to spiritual men to exhibit spiritual leadership and spiritual men look to spiritual men to exhibit spiritual leadership.

This is the Divine expectation.

[olger]

My wife asked me what a scripture meant in church one day. I helped her to understand it better, after we went home.

[Overaged]

My wife asked me what a scripture meant in church one day. I helped her to understand it better, after we went home.

ha ha; well that means you must have paid attention to the sermon that Sabbath, instead of falling asleep!

[Overaged]

Thanks for your explanation Doug.

My wife & most other women I know who attend a church feel as your wife does about ordaining women as Pastor or Elder. They don't feel it is right because of the aggresiveness of the approach most have on the subject.

Esther, (in the OT), is one of my favorite examples of women in ministry. There are so many things to glean from the book of Esther; I hope to post a bit about it when I have more time.

[doug yowell]

Esther, (in the OT), is one of my favorite examples of women in ministry. There are so many things to glean from the book of Esther; I hope to post a bit about it when I have more time.

I like Esther too (that was my mom's name).She is an example of the real power of a woman and actually the whole story is based on the fundamental principle that traditional ordination is based upon (ever notice the argument put forth by the king's counselors in 1:15-20?) My favorite woman in the Bible is Abigail. I get awestruck every time I read the story.

[Naomi]

It appears that all the fine posts have been from the men. May I add that as a female who has held Revelation Seminars at home and abroad that I am in total support of your statements on this subject, Thank you for offering a place for the "other side" of the issue to be aired

[Gordon1]

It appears that all the fine posts have been from the men.

Beg to differ Naomi.

Your own posts lend credence and objectivity.

Order can't be restored without both genders on board.

At least that is God's plan.

[Guest arnie]

Yep

[Overaged]

It appears that all the fine posts have been from the men. May I add that as a female who has held Revelation Seminars at home and abroad that I am in total support of your statements on this subject, Thank you for offering a place for the "other side" of the issue to be aired

Hey, thanks! That meant a lot. You know, I think "Naomi" is another Bible name that I found fascinating too. More to post about! lol. Stay tuned.

[Overaged]

You know, Naomi, I was thinking too that in some ways, this whole spat over WO is almost like the men fighting over the women, as in the Popeye cartoons I used to watch as a kid. One of my visions for this thread is to just have a positve centered topic for men to stop all that and to talk more positively about women, and yes, we need women's help here to do that so thanks for joining us.

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: Naomi

It appears that all the fine posts have been from the men.

Beg to differ Naomi.

Your own posts lend credence and objectivity.

Order can't be restored without both genders on board.

At least that is God's plan.

Those are exactly my thoughts. One should not neglect to notice that most of the comments on this subject here at CA and also throughout the church have been made by men. I believe that the vast majority of women in Christianity still believe that the model of spiritual leadership that the Bible teaches (the traditional model) and EGW supports is still the will of God.One of the main contributing factors for the ongoing momentum of the modern WO movement is the failure of those "traditional" women to openly support their views. If more women would communicate with leadership their "we don't want it" voices I think the whole thing would go away in a short time. Thus the women would prove that their voices were being heard and that they were effecting the world church in a more powerful way then the men could.I understand the general differences between the way men tend to analyze and the way women respond to these sorts of things but I often think that women give themselves less credit then they deserve and don't fully grasp when they are most needed.The modern WO movement is focused more on women who can act like men rather than women who can act like men can't.The Prov.31 woman is the prime example.Sorry, that's just my perspective.

[Overaged]

I can think of various women in the Bible, in the Church, and a few on this forum of whom I am reminded by the following quote:

Quote:

All who work for God should have the Martha and the Mary attributes blended--a willingness to minister and a sincere love of the truth. Self and selfishness must be put out of sight. God calls for earnest women workers, workers who are prudent, warmhearted, tender, and true to principle. He calls for persevering women who will take their minds from self and their personal convenience, and will center them on Christ, speaking words of truth, praying with the persons to whom they can obtain access, laboring for the conversion of souls.

--Testimonies, vol. 6, p. 118 {DG 13.1}

Let us praise the Lord for His wonderful works through the women in our lives!!

[Nan]

Should those of us who are Martha- dominant stay in the kitchen ?

That is not intended to poke fun at the quote or ridicule the thought, it

has been something that I have known for years, that it is much easier for

me to be a Martha than a Mary.

[Overaged]

Should those of us who are Martha- dominant stay in the kitchen ?

That is not intended to poke fun at the quote or ridicule the thought, it

has been something that I have known for years, that it is much easier for

me to be a Martha than a Mary.

(and FTR I have served/been ordained as an elder in the past ).

lol, don't worry! Some of us men like to cook for our ladies too! if you need to be somewhere else, no problem!

[doug yowell]

Should those of us who are Martha- dominant stay in the kitchen ?

That is not intended to poke fun at the quote or ridicule the thought, it

has been something that I have known for years, that it is much easier for

me to be a Martha than a Mary.

(and FTR I have served/been ordained as an elder in the past ).

I believe the quote suggested a blend of the two.It should not be forgotten that while Mary was sitting in her house mourning the death of her brother Martha was on the road to confront Jesus!And it was to Martha that Jesus revealed His intentions to!!

[doug yowell]

. lol, don't worry! Some of us men like to cook for our ladies too! if you need to be somewhere else, no problem!

And the rest of us would starve to death if you left!!