In Support Of Traditional Ordination

[doug yowell]

It appears that all the fine posts have been from the men. May I add that as a female who has held Revelation Seminars at home and abroad that I am in total support of your statements on this subject, Thank you for offering a place for the "other side" of the issue to be aired

"Upon further review..." thank you also OA for the unique thread about a very touchy subject usually dominated by fiery rhetoric. And thank you Naomi for affirming our contributions to the discussion. We men need (thrive on)affirmation, you know?

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

. lol, don't worry! Some of us men like to cook for our ladies too! if you need to be somewhere else, no problem!

And the rest of us would starve to death if you left!!

LOL, no! You'd starve to death if I did the cooking. I said I liked to cook not that i was any good at it.

[Overaged]

I believe the quote suggested a blend of the two.It should not be forgotten that while Mary was sitting in her house mourning the death of her brother Martha was on the road to confront Jesus!And it was to Martha that Jesus revealed His intentions to!!

[doug yowell]

LOL, no! You'd starve to death if I did the cooking. I said I liked to cook not that i was any good at it.

Apparently we have a lot in common although I must admit that I make a mean PB&J sandwich!!

[Gordon1]

Quote:

[The traditional view on ordination] does give Bible believers another opportunity to witness for truth against the rising tide of secularism in the churches.

Sorry, I had to edit a bit. This topic is for positive things in support of traditional views on ordination only please. Your participation here is valued so please keep coming back!

[Overaged]

This topic is for positive things in support of traditional views on ordination only please. Your participation here is valued so please keep coming back!

[Overaged]

Order can't be restored without both genders on board.

At least that is God's plan.

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

This topic is for positive things in support of traditional views on ordination only please. Your participation here is valued so please keep coming back!

Sometimes a positive is avoiding a negative consequence. Do those count as positives or negatives here?

[Overaged]

ahhh, you shoulda just given me the peace sign Doug...lol

[olger]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

Esther, (in the OT), is one of my favorite examples of women in ministry. There are so many things to glean from the book of Esther; I hope to post a bit about it when I have more time.

I like Esther too (that was my mom's name).She is an example of the real power of a woman and actually the whole story is based on the fundamental principle that traditional ordination is based upon (ever notice the argument put forth by the king's counselors in 1:15-20?) My favorite woman in the Bible is Abigail. I get awestruck every time I read the story.

A................

MEN

[Overaged]

I noticed someone quoting in the Shoutbox, a paragraph supposedly supportive of women's ordination AS PASTOR OR ELDER, and it went like this:

Quote:

"Women who are willing to consecrate some of their time to the service of the Lord...should be set apart to this work by prayer and laying on of hands."

No reference was given for this quote, but it appears to have been given to make it look like EGW was in support of women being ordained as Pastor or Elder. But this is far from the case. The quote was lifted entirely out of context, as has been the case with many other quotes.

Here is the correct context for the Shoutbox quote:

In the book, Daughters of God, we read:

Quote:

"Women to Consecrate Their Time to Service of God.--Women who are willing to consecrate some of their time to the service of the Lord should be appointed to visit the sick, look after the young, and minister to the necessities of the poor. They should be set apart to this work by prayer and laying on of hands. [THE ARTICLE IN WHICH

THIS STATEMENT APPEARS IS ENTITLED "THE DUTY OF THE MINISTER AND THE PEOPLE." IT IS A CALL FOR INVOLVEMENT OF THE LAITY IN THE CHURCH TO BECOME ACTIVE AND TO SHARE THE BURDENS OF THE MINISTER. SEE APPENDIX

C.] In some cases they will need to counsel with the church officers or the minister, but if they are devoted women, maintaining a vital connection with God, they will be a power for good in the church.

This is another means of strengthening and building up the church. We need to branch out more in our methods of labor. Not a hand should be bound, not a soul discouraged, not a voice should be hushed; let every individual labor, privately or publicly, to help forward this grand work. Place the burdens upon men and women of the church, that they may grow by reason of the exercise, and thus become effective agents in the hand of the Lord for the enlightenment of those who sit

in darkness"--RH, July 9, 1895. {DG 102.2}

Absolutely no mention of ordaining as Pastor or Elder.

And so the battle rages on, those in support of WO attacking with quote after quote, trying to make it appear that women should be ordained as Pastor or Elder; but this is just not how it reads either in the Bible, or the spirit of prophecy.

Taken in context; such quotes as supplied by supporters of WO simply do not say what they keep telling us they do.

Now the post that I am actually intending to reply to here is a followup of something I promised in that post to do. I will enclose that explanation in the next post.

[Overaged]

Here is another example of spirit of prophecy quotes, in this case, being lifted out of contet, and made to appear to say something that it actually does not:

Quote:

"One man may be conversant with the Scriptures, and some particular portion of the Scripture may be especially appreciated by him; another sees another portion as very important, and thus one may present one point, and another, another point, and both may be of highest value. This is all in the order of God. But if a man makes a mistake in his interpretation of some portion of the Scripture, shall this cause diversity and disunion? God forbid. We cannot then take a position that the unity of the church consists in viewing every text of Scripture in the very same light"

This quote has been presented several times on this forum, and

elsewhere to "prove" that we don't need to agree on WO and that those who want to go ahead with it should be allowed to do so. But is this the actual context of what Ellen White was saying here? Should we just agree to disagree, and let "everyone do what is right in their own eyes?" Is that really how God wants His Church, (it's not our's), to operate?

Note this quote which gives us the correct context of the above:

Quote:

"UNITY IN FAITH AND DOCTRINE

My husband, with Elders Joseph Bates, Stephen Pierce, Hiram Edson, and others who were keen, noble, and true, was among those who, after the passing of the time in 1844, searched for the truth as for hidden treasure. {CET 192.3}

We would come together burdened in soul, praying that we might be one in faith and doctrine; for we knew that Christ is not divided. One point at a time was made the subject of investigation. The Scriptures were opened with a sense of awe. Often we fasted, that we might be better fitted to understand the truth. After earnest prayer, if any point was not understood, it was discussed and each one expressed his opinion freely; then we would again bow in prayer, and earnest supplications went up to heaven that God would help us to see eye to eye, that we might be one, as Christ and the Father are one. Many tears were shed. {CET 192.4}

We spent many hours in this way. Sometimes the entire night was spent in solemn investigation of the Scriptures, that we might understand the truth for our time. On some occasions the Spirit of God would come upon me, and difficult portions were made clear through God's appointed way, and then there was perfect harmony. We were all of one mind and one spirit. {CET 193.1}

We sought most earnestly that the Scriptures should not be wrested to suit any man's opinions. We tried to make our differences as slight as possible by not dwelling on points that were of minor importance, upon which there were varying opinions. But the burden of every soul was to bring about a condition among the brethren which would answer the prayer of Christ that His disciples might be one as He and the Father are one. {CET 193.2}

Sometimes one or two of the brethren would stubbornly set themselves against the view presented, and would act out the natural feelings of the heart; but when this disposition appeared, we suspended our investigations and adjourned our meeting, that each one might have an opportunity to go to God in prayer, and without conversation with others, study the point of difference, asking light from heaven. With expressions of friendliness we parted, to meet again as soon as possible for further investigation. At times the power of God came upon us in a marked manner, and when clear light revealed the points of truth, we would weep and rejoice together. We loved Jesus; we loved one another. {CET 193.3}

We can now see the correct context of the quote, and that neither EGW or the Bible would condone the church to have their doctrines buffet style where everyone just picks and chooses what "is right in their eyes." Those who promote this have turned into some of the worst "accusers of the brethren;" I have seen in a long time, and anyone who disagrees with them will be ostracised. I know because it is happening to me, and others I have talked to. But the plain fact is, is that Mrs White clearly refers to "points that were of minor importance, upon which there were varying opinions." All official or major doctrines ask for unity.

There are just so many positive things to dwell on when considering women in ministry, and the differing roles God has assigned to men and women. Roles that differ, but still complement one another and work together for God's glory. I still can't figure why some people in the church are so agressive with pushing WO on us, attacking and tearing apart the church over it; since what women already do, and have historically done is GREAT. Most women I know in the Church are not even interested in this war and in joing in the insistent tirade on how "unjust" opposers to WO are. They are too busy focusing on Jesus, and how to point others to Him.

The next few posts will dwell on that greatness, and why some of us support it whole-heartedly!

[Overaged]

Incase anyone is wondering; I have no trouble saying that there have always been women in our church who have tried to bless me, and point me to Jesus. Infact; it was a woman in one of our churches who first led me to Him. And if you would have seen just what i was like at that time, you would have said: "Wow! How did you do that Lord?" The lady who led me to Christ was a nurse. She didn't lead me to Him by Bible studies, by being ordained, or by any other of the standard means that we think of as "leading people to Christ."

She looked after me in the hospital when I was badly burned, and she was the hand that held mine, the voice that soothed my pain in the night, and the person who, if she was there in the hospital room, would see to it that I was made as comfortable as possible. I remember her many a painful night, assuring me that she would not leave until I was not scared anymore.

I always remembered that special quality she had to her character, and many years after she was done looking after me; I had occassion to walk into an Adventist Church, and was I surprised to see that same quality of goodness to the character of men women and even some of the children there. I knew it was Jesus; even before I knew Him as my Savior!!

Women have too often gotten a bad rap in the church, the workplace, and sadly, even in the home at times; but it is my hope that this topic will be able to focus more on the positive ways that God has used women in ministry, in His church. They really desrve it!!

(TBC)

[olger]

Sure. There are many good "Daughters of Sarah" among us (1 Peter 3:6). They are a standing rebuke to the restless Eve's among the church.

rejoice always,

G

[Naomi]

Thank you OA ... your testimony is an inspiration and fine example of what we as Christians and members of our church should exemplify.

[Naomi]

Sure. There are many good "Daughters of Sarah" among us (1 Peter 3:6). They are a standing rebuke to the restless Eve's among the church.

rejoice always,

G

[Overaged]

Sure. There are many good "Daughters of Sarah" among us (1 Peter 3:6). They are a standing rebuke to the restless Eve's among the church.

rejoice always,

G

Thats a good way to put it.

[Overaged]

Thank you OA ... your testimony is an inspiration and fine example of what we as Christians and members of our church should exemplify.

It sure is, and it is my hope that this thread will lean more towards the positive reinforcement of this topic, and that others will also post similar testimonies. (1 John 1:1-3)

[Overaged]

A Woman’s Faith

(Taken from a very old book, published in early 1800’s called “The Beautiful Tree Of Life.” Pg 120-121)

"In one of the towns in England, there is a beautiful little chapel, and a very touching story is told in connection with it. It was built by an infidel. He had a praying wife, but he would not listen to her, would not allow her pastor to even take dinner with them; would not look at the Bible; would not allow religion to even be talked of.

She made up her mind , seeing she could not influence him by her voice, that everyday at 12 o’clock, she would pray to God for his salvation. She said nothing to him; but everyday at that hour, she told the Lord about her husband. At the end of 12 months there was no change in him. But she did not give it up. Six months more went past. Her faith began to waver; and she said: “Will I have to give him up at last?” “Perhaps when I am dead He will answer my prayers?”

When she had gotten to that point, it seemed just as if God had got her where He had wanted her. The man came home to dinner one day. His wife was in the dining room, waiting for him; but he didn’t come in. She waited for quite some time, and finally looked for him all through the house. At last, she thought of going into that little room, where she had prayed for him so often. And there he was, praying at the same bed with agony, right where she had prayed for so many months; asking forgiveness for his sins. And this is a lesson for everyone today. The Lord saw that woman’s faith; and answered her prayer."

[doug yowell]

There is a vast difference between the role of a mother and the role of a father.Most great men have been shaped by their mothers in a way that their father (if they had one) could not do. The mother's influence reflects more deeply in a unique way on her power to act as a woman. One of the common assertions of WO proponents is that disallowing women to perform the same roles as men is degrading to women, a sign of disrespect, and contrary to the gospel.I believe that it was Bob Ryan that noted that men all have mothers (sisters,grammas, aunts,too)that we adore and highly honor.My mother was my hero. She was the only role model I had but she was not a dad.I had a godly gramma but she was not my (godly)grampa. Ever notice what young men who are in the top echelon of their athletic abilities, when they know they are on TV.,always say into the camera? The one female leader in Israel's history proudly referred to herself as "a mother in Israel", and the apostle Paul noted that though the woman was not to usurp her husband's family authority "she will be saved in childhood..."(I Tim.2:15. This seems to indicate a more long lasting influence than that of the man's role.Apart from all the other positive Christian influences in my own life that were directly as a result of the womanly yet godly girls that I knew, my mom and grandma were the greatest factors in my own journey.

[Overaged]

There is a vast difference between the role of a mother and the role of a father.Most great men have been shaped by their mothers in a way that their father (if they had one) could not do. The mother's influence reflects more deeply in a unique way on her power to act as a woman. One of the common assertions of WO proponents is that disallowing women to perform the same roles as men is degrading to women, a sign of disrespect, and contrary to the gospel.I believe that it was Bob Ryan that noted that men all have mothers (sisters,grammas, aunts,too)that we adore and highly honor.My mother was my hero. She was the only role model I had but she was not a dad.I had a godly gramma but she was not my (godly)grampa. Ever notice what young men who are in the top echelon of their athletic abilities, when they know they are on TV.,always say into the camera? The one female leader in Israel's history proudly referred to herself as "a mother in Israel", and the apostle Paul noted that though the woman was not to usurp her husband's family authority "she will be saved in childhood..."(I Tim.2:15. This seems to indicate a more long lasting influence than that of the man's role.Apart from all the other positive Christian influences in my own life that were directly as a result of the womanly yet godly girls that I knew, my mom and grandma were the greatest factors in my own journey.

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

There is a vast difference between the role of a mother and the role of a father.Most great men have been shaped by their mothers in a way that their father (if they had one) could not do. The mother's influence reflects more deeply in a unique way on her power to act as a woman. One of the common assertions of WO proponents is that disallowing women to perform the same roles as men is degrading to women, a sign of disrespect, and contrary to the gospel.I believe that it was Bob Ryan that noted that men all have mothers (sisters,grammas, aunts,too)that we adore and highly honor.My mother was my hero. She was the only role model I had but she was not a dad.I had a godly gramma but she was not my (godly)grampa. Ever notice what young men who are in the top echelon of their athletic abilities, when they know they are on TV.,always say into the camera? The one female leader in Israel's history proudly referred to herself as "a mother in Israel", and the apostle Paul noted that though the woman was not to usurp her husband's family authority "she will be saved in childhood..."(I Tim.2:15. This seems to indicate a more long lasting influence than that of the man's role.Apart from all the other positive Christian influences in my own life that were directly as a result of the womanly yet godly girls that I knew, my mom and grandma were the greatest factors in my own journey.

[Overaged]

Pastor Stephen Bohr has an interesting view on what is currently happening in our church over WO:

Quote:

A Striking Story

I believe that there is a biblical story that illustrates what is happening presently

in our church with regards to women’s ordination and the story is not pretty. It is the story of Korah’s rebellion. Korah was a member of the tribe of Levi but he was not a member of the household of Aaron. The Levites had been called by God to perform some very important ministries and services in the sanctuary on behalf of the

congregation and they were ordained (notice that there was ordination to different

functions which would explain Ellen White’s lonely statement about ordaining women) for their role by the laying on of hands:

“So you shall bring the Levites before the LORD, and the children of Israel shall lay their hands on the Levites.” Numbers 8:10 The Levites had some very important

roles in the church of the day. They provided the music for the sanctuary service—both instrumental and choral.

They gathered the tithes of Israel, they bore the Ark of the Covenant, they pitched and tore down the tabernacle and were its custodians, they flayed the animals and they taught the law to the people — no menial and unimportant tasks to be sure!

Yet although they were ordained to serve as Levites, they had not been called to minister as priests before the Lord because He had not set them apart for such a function. Was this simply a ‘custom of the ages’ established by men or was it established by God?

Korah was not satisfied with simply being a Levite. He wanted to be a priest!

You can read the rest of what he says here: http://secretsunsealed.org/Downloads/newsletter2Q12web.pdf

[Overaged]

This is just a note to notify that I decided to move this topic here, by asking Gail to move it for me as I feel that this topic has become something I no longer want to be involved in here.

[phkrause]

Sorry to hear that OA, but I can understand why. :(