Why did Job repent?

[M. T. Cross]

Now PK, I like the view you take of your God. What I don't understand is why that love would make one feel vile and that there was no good within them. I would expect the opposite feeling to occur. A feeling of warmth and worthiness.

Now if a person is a truly evil and malicious person they may not feel that deserving, but here we are talking about JOB! I mean this is the shining light of the greatest faith and a man of strong moral fiber!

[Gail]

Originally Posted By: Gail

Re: Job

His fate turned when he prayed for his friends. Maybe it's because his friends were really his opponents that made his prayer for them so outstanding.

Thank you Gail for reminding us of how he prayed for his friends who were miserable comforters. But I am not sure what you mean when you say that his fate turned when he did that... can you elaborate on that a little please?

sky

Job 42:10- the Bible says that God turned the captivity of Job when he prayed for his friends.

His friends in this case turned out to really be enemies, in a sense. Jesus said that we are to pray for our enemies and do good to them that despitefully use you.

I was saying that perhaps that was the key. There was something significant about his praying for them.

[Gail]

Now PK, I like the view you take of your God. What I don't understand is why that love would make one feel vile and that there was no good within them. I would expect the opposite feeling to occur. A feeling of warmth and worthiness.

Now if a person is a truly evil and malicious person they may not feel that deserving, but here we are talking about JOB! I mean this is the shining light of the greatest faith and a man of strong moral fiber!

I'm not sure that vile is the right word... When encountered with love, especially unrequited and undeserved love, I could see how a person would in response feel humbled in contrast.

[phkrause]

Now PK, I like the view you take of your God. What I don't understand is why that love would make one feel vile and that there was no good within them. I would expect the opposite feeling to occur. A feeling of warmth and worthiness.

Now if a person is a truly evil and malicious person they may not feel that deserving, but here we are talking about JOB! I mean this is the shining light of the greatest faith and a man of strong moral fiber!

Let me say it this way. It might not be an even annalogy, but maybe it will be good enough. You see someone that your interested in, and as you date and get to know each other better and better, you start to feel like your really not good enough for her. So you start thinking to yourself what the heck does she see in me. I believe this is how many feel as we have a closer walk with God. We start to see how ugly we really are and think how can he love us so much when we are so bad. But he does. I don't believe he really wants us to feel that way, it just happens. Its hard to explain any other way. But maybe some else has a better way of saying it. We're all different so no two people will see it the same.

[Robert]

Now if a person is a truly evil and malicious person they may not feel that deserving, but here we are talking about JOB!

You need study your NT....Clearly all are falling short of God's love....There is none righteous, no, not even one. Jesus said, "There's none good, but one, that is God." If you can't see this then your love of self, your pride in blinding your condition. We are sinners. That's why God gave the law...in order to place our pride in the dust so that we might be just by faith.

Many see much to admire in the life of Christ. But true love for him can never dwell in the heart of the self-righteous. Not to see our own deformity is not to see the beauty of Christ’s character. When we are fully awake to our own sinfulness, we shall appreciate Christ. The more humble are our views of ourselves, the more clearly we shall see the spotless character of Jesus. He who says, “I am holy, I am sinless,” is self-deceived. Some have said this, and some even dare to say, “I am Christ.” To entertain such a thought is blasphemy. Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption. RH Sep 25, 1900

[Robert]

I'm not sure that vile is the right word...

You need to look at the context:

Job 42:1 Then Job replied to the LORD: ...3 [You asked,] 'Who is this that obscures my counsel without knowledge?' Surely I spoke of things I did not understand, things too wonderful for me to know. 4 ["You said,] 'Listen now, and I will speak; I will question you, and you shall answer me.' 5 My ears had heard of you but now my eyes have seen you. 6 Therefore I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes."

Job's problem, according to Elihu, is Job justified his righteousness before God.

Let’s go on to chapter 10, and you will notice that Job is now defending his righteousness even before God.

Job 10:2:

“I will say to God: Do not condemn me, but tell me what charges you have against me.”

“Come on God, even You, show me where I have gone wrong.”

Look at verse 7:

“...though you know that I am not guilty...”

Verses 14-15:

If I sinned, you would be watching me and would not let my offense go unpunished. If I am guilty — woe to me! Even if I am innocent, I cannot lift my head, for I am full of shame and drowned in my affliction.

In other words, he’s defending himself. “Show me where I’m wrong, show me what my sin is.” Go to chapter 13. Job pleads with God to show him his sins. In fact, Job is so confident that he is sinless, look at verses 23-24:

How many wrongs and sins have I committed? Show me my offense and my sin. Why do you hide your face and consider me your enemy?

These are those things Job spoke - "things I did not understand, things too wonderful for me to know."

[Robert]

These are those things Job spoke - "things I did not understand, things too wonderful for me to know."

"Behold, I am vile; What shall I answer You? I lay my hand over my mouth."

Notice, no more pretentious words. No more bragging of his righteousness. Job covers his mouth. Job learned not to brag....Saul, turned Paul, learned not to brag.

The one sin that can cause a person to be lost is the sin of self-righteousness:

"From the parable of the Pharisee and the publican we learn that to profess excellence which we do not possess, will exclude us from the grace which alone can make us of value in the sight of God. The teachings of Christ give no countenance to a spirit of self-righteousness which would exalt self over others. Vanity is never the result of virtue and true piety. "Every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted." [The Signs of the Times-1885 8. Article Title: The Pharisee and the Publican]

The Pharisee’s boastful, self-righteous prayer showed that his heart was closed against the influence of the Holy Spirit. Because of his distance from God, he had no sense of his own defilement, in contrast with the perfection of the divine holiness. He felt no need, and he received nothing.—(Steps to Christ, 30, 31.)

[Robert]

BTW, the shaking that will occur within the SDA church is over this same issue.

Notice what will cause the shaking:

-BC- EW

-TI- Early Writings of Ellen G. White

-CN- 3

-CT- Spiritual Gifts

-PR- 02

-PG- 270

I asked the meaning of the shaking I had seen and was shown that it would be caused by the straight testimony called forth by the counsel of the True Witness to the Laodiceans.

What's the message to Laodicea? To understand the message you must go to Rev 3:17

you say, 'I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing'--and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked-- 18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent!

Repent of what? Claims of righteousness.....

[Robert]

-BC- GC11

-TI- The Great Controversy

-CN- 27

-CT- Modern Revivals

-PR- 02

-PG- 471

When Job heard the voice of the Lord out of the whirlwind, he exclaimed: “I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.” Job 42:6. It was when Isaiah saw the glory of the Lord, and heard the cherubim crying, “Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts,” that he cried out, “Woe is me! for I am undone.” Isaiah 6:3, 5. Paul, after he was caught up into the third heaven and heard things which it was not possible for a man to utter, speaks of himself as “less than the least of all saints.” 2 Corinthians 12:2-4, margin; Ephesians 3:8. It was the beloved John, who leaned on Jesus’ breast and beheld His glory, that fell as one dead before the feet of the angel. Revelation 1:17.

There can be no self-exaltation, no boastful claim to freedom from sin, on the part of those who walk in the shadow of Calvary’s cross. They feel that it was their sin which caused the agony that broke the heart of the Son of God, and this thought will lead them to self-abasement. Those who live nearest to Jesus discern most clearly the frailty and sinfulness of humanity, and their only hope is in the merit of a crucified and risen Saviour.

[skyblue888]

But that was not Job's problem. He was a righteous man. This is shown by the fact that before God He acknowledged himself as erring, helpless, condemned sinner as all true children of God do. These have a deep sense of their unworthiness.

Scriptures have already been quoted which show that He was an upright man and that he was not guilty of self-righteousness as his friends thought.

sky

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: Robert

These are those things Job spoke - "things I did not understand, things too wonderful for me to know."

"Behold, I am vile; What shall I answer You? I lay my hand over my mouth."

Notice, no more pretentious words. No more bragging of his righteousness. Job covers his mouth. Job learned not to brag....Saul, turned Paul, learned not to brag.

The one sin that can cause a person to be lost is the sin of self-righteousness:

"From the parable of the Pharisee and the publican we learn that to profess excellence which we do not possess, will exclude us from the grace which alone can make us of value in the sight of God. The teachings of Christ give no countenance to a spirit of self-righteousness which would exalt self over others. Vanity is never the result of virtue and true piety. "Every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted." [The Signs of the Times-1885 8. Article Title: The Pharisee and the Publican]

The Pharisee’s boastful, self-righteous prayer showed that his heart was closed against the influence of the Holy Spirit. Because of his distance from God, he had no sense of his own defilement, in contrast with the perfection of the divine holiness. He felt no need, and he received nothing.—(Steps to Christ, 30, 31.)

Had Job been bragging then he would have received the same condemnation as the Pharisee but God says nothing about that. In fact he concludes by bragging again on Job by noting to Job's friends "you have not spoken of Me what is right as My Servant Job has." Job was not bragging about his righteousness any more than Paul was when he stated that "I have lived in all good conscience before God until this day." Job,in fact, had done nothing against his knowledge of God's will, either commission or omission.James later notes "Indeed we count them blessed who endure.You have heard of the perseverance of Job and seen the end intended by the Lord..." James uses Job as an example of perseverance. If Job was not suffering because he was righteous he was not persevering and his friends would have been right.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Robert

"Behold, I am vile; What shall I answer You? I lay my hand over my mouth."

Notice, no more pretentious words. No more bragging of his righteousness. Job covers his mouth. Job learned not to brag....Saul, turned Paul, learned not to brag.

The one sin that can cause a person to be lost is the sin of self-righteousness:

"From the parable of the Pharisee and the publican we learn that to profess excellence which we do not possess, will exclude us from the grace which alone can make us of value in the sight of God. The teachings of Christ give no countenance to a spirit of self-righteousness which would exalt self over others. Vanity is never the result of virtue and true piety. "Every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted." [The Signs of the Times-1885 8. Article Title: The Pharisee and the Publican']

The Pharisee’s boastful, self-righteous prayer showed that his heart was closed against the influence of the Holy Spirit. Because of his distance from God, he had no sense of his own defilement, in contrast with the perfection of the divine holiness. He felt no need, and he received nothing.—(Steps to Christ, 30, 31.)

Had Job been bragging then he would have received the same condemnation as the Pharisee but God says nothing about that. In fact he concludes by bragging again on Job by noting to Job's friends "you have not spoken of Me what is right as My Servant Job has." Job was not bragging about his righteousness any more than Paul was when he stated that "I have lived in all good conscience before God until this day." Job,in fact, had done nothing against his knowledge of God's will, either commission or omission.James later notes "Indeed we count them blessed who endure.You have heard of the perseverance of Job and seen the end intended by the Lord..." James uses Job as an example of perseverance. If Job was not suffering because he was righteous he was not persevering and his friends would have been right.

______________

A big Amen to that.

sky :)

[Robert]

He was a righteous man.

...He acknowledged himself as erring, helpless, condemned sinner

Blatant contradiction!

Jesus is righteous. Jesus was never a sinner.

[Robert]

James uses Job as an example of perseverance.

Perseverance isn't the same as righteousness. Job didn't turn his back on God. He went through his ordeal and maintained his faith in God. The problem is that Job brought his problems on himself because of his self-righteous stance.

[Robert]

Job did brag....He justified himself before God.

Job 31:1 "I made a covenant with my eyes not to look lustfully at a girl."

That's a statement by self-righteous person. What does Jesus say? Does He say try hard not to sin? Make a covenant with yourself not to sin? No, He says "without Me you can do nothing." He says "Abide in Me" and I'll work in you to produce fruit. It's God's covenant, not my covenant....We can't produce anything good.

verse 5 "If I have walked in falsehood or my foot has hurried after deceit-- 6 let God weigh me in honest scales and he will know that I am blameless--

Again, Elihu has it right:

Job 32:1 So these three men stopped answering Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes.

You see Job's three friends couldn't prove his torment was because of some sin in Job's life, but yet they condemned him anyway. They didn't view Job as self-righteous - the author of the book of Job viewed job as being righteous in his own eyes.

2 But Elihu son of Barakel the Buzite, of the family of Ram, became very angry with Job for justifying himself rather than God. 3 He was also angry with the three friends, because they had found no way to refute Job, and yet had condemned him.

As we have seen, Job justified his blamelessness before God. His view of himself was not that of a sinner, but of a righteous man. He apparently had a limited view of sin as do many folks. Anything outside agape love is sin, period.

[Robert]

He apparently had a limited view of sin as do many folks. Anything outside agape love is sin, period.

You see I can do the right things outwardly, but inwardly - in my heart & mind - be doing the deed for selfish, self-centered motives.

That's Paul's point in 1 Cor 13:

If I give all I possess to the poor....but have not love, noting is gained (I make no headway). 4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking ....

What's that? Agape is not self-seeking. Everything done by agape is without any thought for self.

"In heaven none will think of self, nor seek their own pleasure [i.e., own way]; but all, from pure, genuine love [agape], will seek the happiness of the heavenly beings around them." [2T 132]

Why in heaven? Because you will not have your nature....You will be sinless....Your humanity will be in God's image. You will never do anything so that your get something back.

If I'm being good to get a reward...if I'm being good to escape hell, then Ellen White says such works are worse then open apostasy. They are void of agape. They are filthy rags.

[Robert]

Now why did Job do the works he did?

Job 1:9 "So do you think Job does all that out of the sheer goodness of his heart? (In others without getting something in return) 10 Why, no one ever had it so good! You pamper him like a pet, make sure nothing bad ever happens to him or his family or his possessions, bless everything he does - he can't lose! (The Message)

Now here's the NIV:

9 "Does Job fear God for nothing?" Satan replied. 10 "Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land.

So outwardly Job did good things....You couldn't deny that, but inwardly they proceeded from the flesh - i.e., everything Job did was to get something back. That's how a legalist works. He keeps all the rules of his church and expects a reward....He expects heaven...he expects the best seats...etc, etc.

Read Matt 23

5 "Everything they do is done for men to see (they want something in return...fame, money, heaven, etc): They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6 they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7 they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them 'Rabbi.' 8 "But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ. 11 The greatest among you will be your servant. 12 For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted. 13 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. 15 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are. 16

[doug yowell]

So outwardly Job did good things....You couldn't deny that, but inwardly they proceeded from the flesh - i.e., everything Job did was to get something back. That's how a legalist works. He keeps all the rules of his church and expects a reward....He expects heaven...he expects the best seats...etc, etc.

You sound like you were coaching Eliphaz,Zophar&Bildad. There is simply no significant difference between their charges and yours. Very dangerous ground at this stage of the game.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Robert

So outwardly Job did good things....You couldn't deny that, but inwardly they proceeded from the flesh - i.e., everything Job did was to get something back. That's how a legalist works. He keeps all the rules of his church and expects a reward....He expects heaven...he expects the best seats...etc, etc.

You sound like you were coaching Eliphaz,Zophar&Bildad. There is simply no significant difference between their charges and yours. Very dangerous ground at this stage of the game.

Exactly.

sky

[Robert]

You sound like you were coaching Eliphaz,Zophar&Bildad. There is simply no significant difference between their charges and yours. Very dangerous ground at this stage of the game.

No, they condemned Job, but technically they couldn't find anything....Elihu on the other hand nailed down Job's problem.

[Robert]

Exactly.

sky

No, not exactly.....Come on guys, give it up. You can't refute what I'm stating.....

[doug yowell]

There is simply no significant difference between their charges and yours.

[doug yowell]

.Come on guys, give it up. You can't refute what I'm stating.....

You should be the one to give up criticizing someone who was proven to be more righteous than you.Even Jesus "learned obedience by the things which He suffered" without having sinned first.

[Robert]

....one has to wonder why God would require Job to later intercede for them?

Why? Go to Job 32:1

So these three men stopped answering Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes.

Did you get that? "These three men"! Who are they? "Eliphaz the Temanite, Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite."

Now verse 2:

But Elihu son of Barakel the Buzite, of the family of Ram, became very angry with Job (why?)

for justifying himself rather than God .

Here's the NKJV: "Because he (Job) justified himself rather than God."

In other words instead of God justifying Job based on the doing & dying of the coming Savior, Job was busy justifying his own righteousness to God Himself.

This is the same spirit that prompted the Pharisee to say, "God, I thank you that I am not like other men--robbers, evildoers, adulterers--or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get." (Luke 18:11-12)

Was this man just before God? Read verse 14:

14 "I tell you that this man (the tax collector/sinner), rather than the other (the Pharisee), went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

That's why Job was humbled....He had a problem & his problem was self-righteousness.

Now back to Job 32:3

"He (Elihu) was also angry with the three friends, because they had found no way to refute Job, and yet had condemned him."

So Elihu was angry at Job & his three friends. He was angry at Job because of his Pharisaical attitude. He was mad at Job's three friends because they had condemned him, but could find nothing outwardly wrong with Job.

[Robert]

For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

That's why Job was humbled....He had a problem & his problem was self-righteousness.

Ellen White:

When Job heard the voice of the Lord out of the whirlwind, he exclaimed: “I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.” Job 42:6.....There can be no self-exaltation, no boastful claim to freedom from sin, on the part of those who walk in the shadow of Calvary’s cross.

What was Job's claim?

Job 31:6 Let God weigh me in honest scales and he will know that I am blameless!

Now back to Ellen White:

"Paul, after he was caught up into the third heaven and heard things which it was not possible for a man to utter, speaks of himself as “less than the least of all saints.”

Was Paul like this as a Pharisee? No, go to Phil 3:6

"as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless"!

Was Paul humbled? Yes! Was Job humbled? Yes! Why?

Because there was no other way. It's very hard to let go of our righteousness (i.e., self-righteousness).

Is Adventism guilty of gross sins? And the answer is no. Then what is our problem? Self-righteousness, which has deceived us. Do we need to repent of self-righteousness? Yes. It is crucial that we do.

And God will go through all lengths, He will rebuke us first, then He will chastise us. How far will He chastise us? I don’t know, but looking at Job it can be pretty drastic. How would you like to lose all your kids, all your property, and then be filled with sores? Terrible!

But did God do it out of anger, or out of love? Love. He knew that Job had to learn a lesson, it was for his eternal destiny. And Job did learn the lesson, he did repent, and he abhorred himself. And he said, “God, you are right.”