Why did Job repent?

[Robert]

We may have flattered ourselves, as did Nicodemus, that our life has been upright, that our moral character is correct, and think that we need not humble the heart before God, like the common sinner: but when the light from Christ [His agape love] shines into our souls, we shall see how impure we are; we shall discern the selfishness of motive, the enmity against God, that has defiled every act of life. [sC 28]

Nicodemus, was a first-class Pharisee. As far as the law was concerned, he lived a moral life. But the law of God looks not only at the outside actions, but the motives behind them:

"It is evident that where a claim to sinlessness is made, there the law of God has not been written in the heart; for the commandments of God are exceeding broad, and are discerners of the thoughts and intents of the heart ....“If we say we have no sin,” when our thoughts, words, and actions, reflected from the law of God, the great moral mirror, reveal us as transgressors, we make God a liar.... (EGW, reference unknown)

So the law looks at the motive.

Paul says that as “touching the righteousness which is in the law”—as far as outward acts were concerned --he was “blameless” (Philippians 3:6); but when the spiritual character of the law was discerned, he saw himself a sinner. Judged by the letter of the law as men apply it to the outward life, he had abstained from sin; but when he looked into the depths of its holy precepts, and saw himself as God saw him, he bowed in humiliation and confessed his guilt. [sC 29]

So outwardly Job viewed himself as blameless. He was a good man - he didn't do this and he didn't do that, but was Job's motive pure?

Again, a true sinner saved by grace standing on the ground of justification by faith would never utter he is blameless. Only when God revealed Himself to Job did he realize "the selfishness of motive".

Then Job repents....Then Job looks at his works as filthy rags in comparison to the righteousness and glory of God.

[doug yowell]

We may have flattered ourselves, as did Nicodemus, that our life has been upright, that our moral character is correct, and think that we need not humble the heart before God, like the common sinner: but when the light from Christ [His agape love] shines into our souls, we shall see how impure we are; we shall discern the selfishness of motive, the enmity against God, that has defiled every act of life. [sC 28]

Nicodemus, was a first-class Pharisee. As far as the law was concerned, he lived a moral life. But the law of God looks not only at the outside actions, but the motives behind them:

So outwardly Job viewed himself as blameless. He was a good man - he didn't do this and he didn't do that, but was Job's motive pure?

Interesting combo of EGW quotes and your different application. Can you find a quote of hers that reveals that Job's actions were like the Pharisee Nicodemus? Why would God brag to Satan on Job's BLAMELESS AND UPRIGHT being if Job was not yet even converted? And after the first batch of catastrophe's noted that "he holds fast to his integrity although you incited Me to destroy him WITHOUT CAUSE".Like Satan, you are attempting to prove that Job's motivation for serving God was self-serving.Had Job been the hypocrite that you portray he would have listened to his wife and abandoned his "faith".

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Robert

We may have flattered ourselves, as did Nicodemus, that our life has been upright, that our moral character is correct, and think that we need not humble the heart before God, like the common sinner: but when the light from Christ [His agape love] shines into our souls, we shall see how impure we are; we shall discern the selfishness of motive, the enmity against God, that has defiled every act of life. [sC 28]

Nicodemus, was a first-class Pharisee. As far as the law was concerned, he lived a moral life. But the law of God looks not only at the outside actions, but the motives behind them:

So outwardly Job viewed himself as blameless. He was a good man - he didn't do this and he didn't do that, but was Job's motive pure?

Interesting combo of EGW quotes and your different application. Can you find a quote of hers that reveals that Job's actions were like the Pharisee Nicodemus? Why would God brag to Satan on Job's BLAMELESS AND UPRIGHT being if Job was not yet even converted? And after the first batch of catastrophe's noted that "he holds fast to his integrity although you incited Me to destroy him WITHOUT CAUSE".Like Satan, you are attempting to prove that Job's motivation for serving God was self-serving.Had Job been the hypocrite that you portray he would have listened to his wife and abandoned his "faith".

Amen again.

sky

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Robert

There is simply no significant difference between their charges and yours.

Exactly the point. You've simply discovered what they couldn't nail down so they were technically right to condemn Job only they didn't know exactly why.Kinda like the way women's intuition works only she doesn't get the credit when she's right.Given their accurate conclusions one has to wonder why God would require Job to later intercede for them? After all, they knew Job had sinned they just couldn't identify what it was.And, of course,that would make Satan right too because he told God up front that Job was a phoney, just in it for the outward advantages. [/quote']

Right on.

sky

[Robert]

Can you find a quote of hers that reveals that Job's actions were like the Pharisee Nicodemus?

[Robert]

Right on.

sky

No, right off....Completely wrong. You guys need to be honest with the context.

[Woody]

Quote:

"We may have flattered ourselves, as did Nicodemus, that our life has been upright, that our moral character is correct, and think that we need not humble the heart before God, like the common sinner: but when the light from Christ [His agape love] shines into our souls, we shall see how impure we are; we shall discern the selfishness of motive, the enmity against God, that has defiled every act of life." [sC 28]

Interesting quote. Does every act of life - mean every act of life?

[doug yowell]

That's even worse.It denies even a common sense reading of the story.Job is self-righteous legalist,a phoney who is convinced that he is made perfect by his unblemished adherence to God's revealed will. God initiates a conversation with Satan, telling him that Job is a unique example of someone who loves Him and hates evil knowing full well that Job was,in fact,an unconverted,proud man. Satan is fooled by God's claim and actually takes the bait thinking that Job needs to be shaken from his loyalty to God in order to prove that Job isn't really what God claims he is but rather a man exactly like Satan claims he truly is(which God already knows that he already is). And we're supposed to be honest with that?

[Robert]

It denies even a common sense reading of the story.

[Robert]

Tell me, in the judgment, are you going to stand before God and His law and present your righteousness or are you going to let Christ represent you in Himself? If you present yourself what's going to happen?

If you present yourself what's going to happen? You'll have to take the curse of the law upon yourself! But before that happens God will try to correct you....He will try to open your eyes. This is what He had to do with Job.

The Jews had this self-righteous problem. Let's read what happened to them:

Matt 23:1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. 3 So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

How so?

4 They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them. 5 "Everything they do is done for men to see:

In other words they gave the people rules that they didn't keep themselves because everything they did was for gain. If you are good to get a reward, that's not being good...it's selfishness. Keeping the law for a reward...keeping the law out of fear of hell, according to EGW, is worse than infidel.

Instead of doing good outwardly for gain, Jesus said " 11 The greatest among you will be your servant. 12 For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Did you get that? If you outwardly try to look good so you can exalt yourself (i.e., for gain) you will be humbled. This is what happened to Job.

Now let's see what Christ tried to do to turn the Jewish leaders around:

First, read this:

26 ... You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

In other words all your works are done for gain...for selfishness.

34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.

Jesus sent prophets and wise men to try to turn these men around, but unlike Job they didn't repent. What happened?

36 I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation. 37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate.

[Robert]

"Take heed that ye do not your righteousness before men, to be seen of them." Matthew 6:1, margin.

The words of Christ on the mount were an expression of that which had been the unspoken teaching of His life, but which the people had failed to comprehend. They could not understand how, having such great power, He neglected to use it in securing what they regarded as the chief good. (He didn't use His good works for gain) Their spirit and motives and methods were the opposite of His. While they claimed to be very jealous for the honor of the law, self-glory was the real object which they sought; and Christ would make it manifest to them that the lover of self is a transgressor of the law.

But the principles cherished by the Pharisees are such as are characteristic of humanity in all ages. The spirit of Pharisaism is the spirit of human nature; and as the Saviour showed the contrast between His own spirit and methods and those of the rabbis, His teaching is equally applicable to the people of all time.

In the days of Christ the Pharisees were continually trying to earn the favor of Heaven in order to secure the worldly honor and prosperity which they regarded as the reward of virtue. At the same time they paraded their acts of charity (good works) before the people in order to attract their attention and gain a reputation for sanctity. [EGW]

[Robert]

the Pharisees were continually trying to earn the favor of Heaven in order to secure the worldly honor and prosperity which they regarded as the reward of virtue.

If you're keeping the law for a reward (mansions in heaven) you aren't keeping the law, you are keeping sin.

Paul tells us that "agape is the fulfillment of the law". Self-love fulfills sin. So you can be keeping the law outwardly, but be in complete harmony with the principle of Lucifer's love of self. That's keeping sin.

You see it takes "agape" to keep the law. We can't produce agape. It's impossible. The only way to experience it is to accept the gospel. What does the gospel tell us? We are complete in Christ. His work of redemption was finished that Sabbath about 2000 years ago.

How so? Just before Christ died He cried out, "It is finished!" What was finished? Redemption! In Him we are complete....We stand just in Christ before God's Holy law. And on the Sabbath God the Father rested from His full & complete work in Christ Jesus. No more could be added. Redemption was perfect and it was complete.

BTW, that's why you rest every 7th-day! You are outwardly stating that by not working you can't add to what God did in Christ Jesus. Hence the Sabbath is a sign of justification by faith.

To those who reject this "all they do is to be seen of men". On the outside it looks like they keep the law, but in reality they are keeping sin.

Christ will, through different means, try to bring such a people to repentance, as He did Job, but if all else fails He will retreat and allow Satan to come in. Please, learn the easy way, folks. Don't go the way of Job. He learned the hard way.

[doug yowell]

Actually, you are not using common sense. You are ignoring the part where Elihu brings out Job's problem. You are ignoring Job's repentence.

[Robert]

Job suffered because he WAS righteous and Satan was trying to shake his confidence in God....

But God allowed it - why? Why would God do that? Just to prove Satan wrong and Himself right? That doesn't sound like agape, it sounds like ego and I know God is not egotistical. So please, tell me why God partially removed Himself from Job? Your traditional version makes no sense.

[Robert]

Taking a quote by Elihu,coupling it with a statement by Job, and adding a selected quote by Ellen White to create a picture that defies the Biblical analysis is just not right.

Whose "Biblical analysis"? Let me remind you of an EGW quote:

We have many lessons to learn, and many, many to unlearn. God and heaven alone are infallible. Those who think that they will never have to give up a cherished view, never have occasion to change an opinion, will be disappointed. [CW 37]

Elihu is absolutely clear...so clear a child could understand him. Shall I quote Elihu again? Here:

So these three men ceased to answer Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes. Then Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the family of Ram, burned with anger. He burned with anger at Job because he justified himself rather than God. He burned with anger also at Job's three friends because they had found no answer, although they had declared Job to be in the wrong. [Job 32:1-3 ESV]

[Lysimachus]

Take a break Robert, you are overdoing it with your posts. I still don't know what your point is after reading through 20 posts of yours.

[Robert]

Take a break Robert, you are overdoing it with your posts. I still don't know what your point is after reading through 20 posts of yours.

My point is that Job justified his righteousness instead of God justifying Job in the coming of the Messiah.

Paul is clear - "There is none righteous, no, not even one."

[Lysimachus]

So are you saying that we should not strive to keep God's commandments?

You're not belittling the law, are you?

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Lysimachus

Take a break Robert, you are overdoing it with your posts. I still don't know what your point is after reading through 20 posts of yours.

My point is that Job justified his righteousness instead of God justifying Job in the coming of the Messiah.

Paul is clear - "There is none righteous, no, not even one."

[Robert]

So are you saying that we should not strive to keep God's commandments?

You're not belittling the law, are you?

Striving to keep the law isn't keeping the law. The law doesn't care how hard you try....There's no credit for effort.

PC- RH

PT- Advent Review and Sabbath Herald

DT- 05-07-01

AT- The Great Standard of Righteousness

PR- 09

Complete obedience is the only condition that meets the requirement of the law. “God is not a man, that He should lie.” God’s law is the rule of His government. He says, “This do, and thou shalt live.” But to the disobedient He says, “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.” “The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” God has given the promise that those who obey His law will be rewarded, not only in the present life, but in the life to come. He declares just as decidedly that those who do not obey His requirements shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on them. By lips that never lie the obedient are blessed, and the disobedient are pronounced guilty.

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

Job suffered because he WAS righteous and Satan was trying to shake his confidence in God....

But God allowed it - why? Why would God do that? Just to prove Satan wrong and Himself right? That doesn't sound like agape, it sounds like ego and I know God is not egotistical. So please, tell me why God partially removed Himself from Job? Your traditional version makes no sense.

I'm of the opinion God allowed Job to reach a point of exasperation so that he would voluntarily come to the point of seeing himself as falling short of the glory of God, something all must conclude before being ready to be received into the portals of heaven. If we see no wrong in ourselves we will not seek a savior, and since Jesus only receives those who accept why He came to this earth, He knew Job needed a set of circumstances that would motivate him to freely admit his lack without which no man will enter the kingdom of heaven.

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

"or is God presenting Job as Job presents himself"

One reason Job's Father in heaven saw Job as blameless was because Job sacrificed before God, the blood of sacrifices that pointed to Jesus blood that washed away his sins. Job only needed to recognize it was not his acts of obedience that was responsible for his salvation, but that in spite of his deeds falling short, he needed repentance for which to make effective the purpose of the sacrifices.

God blesses!

[skyblue888]

Earlier in the thread, I quoted a few statements from the SoP to the efffect that Job was not at fault in vindicating himself (self-justification) to withstand the condemnation of his friends (3 T 509) who were miserable comforters and who sought to make him guilty before God and deserving of punishment. (3 B.C.1140) From these statements we also read that his friends brought a grievous test upon him and represented God in a false light and that Job did not swerve from his loyalty and in the end God rewarded His faithful servant. (3 B.C.1140)

After stating that Job did no wrong in vindicating himself to withstand the condemnation of his friends, the statement goes on to say that this self-justification toward his friends was not necessary toward God for no sooner did Job hear the divine voice than his soul was bowed down with a sense of his sinfulness, and he said before God "I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes."

This shows that he was indeed a righteous man, that he possessed the Spirit of the Gospel.

Now as to those of you who quote Romans 3:10, "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one," to prove that Job could not have been righteous, you may want to read Psalm 14 from which the apostle Paul was quoting from in Romans 3:

"The fool says in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge, who eat up My people as they eat bread, and call not upon the Lord? Then were they in great fear; for God is in the generation of the righteous. You have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the Lord is his refuge."

This is a description of what took place between Job and His so-called friends and also a description of what shall take place between the true people of God and the unrighteous in these last days.

When probation shall close, this sentence will be pronounced:

"He that is unjust. let him be unjust still; and he that is filthy, let him be filthy still; and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still; and he that is holy, let him be holy still." Rev.22:11.

This shows that God will have a righteous and holy people upon the earth when probation shall close.

At the time of the fifth plague the unjust will attempt to execute the death decree upon the just and it is then that God will intervene.

sky

[skyblue888]

Psalm 17 is a prayer by David who is using very similar language used by Job himself.

"Hear a just cause, O Lord, attend to my cry. Give ear to my prayer that is not from deceitful lips... You have tested my heart; You have visited me in the night; You have tried me, and have found nothing. I have purposed that my mouth shall not transgress." Psalm 17:1-3.

Certainly this prayer did not come out of the lips of a self-righteous man.

Both Job and David were converted men and clothed with the righteousness of the Lord. They were not talking about their own righteousness but about the righteousness which they had from God through faith. Phil.3:9.

"Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job were in the land, they would deliver only themselves by their righteousness, says the Lord." Ezekiel 14:14.

"And their righteousness is from me, says the Lord." Isaiah 54:17."

"The Lord our righteousness." Jeremiah 33:16.

sky

[doug yowell]

Those are really good quotes, both SOP and especially the one from Ez.!!