Atonement - when?

[Gerr]

And - can a sinner enter heaven without it?

[doug yowell]

No.

[Gerr]

No.

So then, when does atonement take place?

[skyblue888]

Have you not just read brother Crosier's article that Mrs. White felt fully authorized by the Lord to recommend to every saint and which clearly shows that the atonement itself could not have taken place on Calvary because while on earth Jesus could not be a Priest and it takes a priest to make atonement and that it wasn't until He ascended up on Hight that He became Priest and then He began to make atonement by pleading the merits of His shed blood before the Father in our behalf.

sky

[skyblue888]

Here it is again for your perusal:

In an incomplete research which I conducted years ago I found in a small pamphlet entitled, "A Word to the Little Flock," published by James White in Brunswick, Maine, May 30, 1847, a statement by Sister White on the sanctuary that immediately drew my attention. It is dated April 21, 1847, and written from Topsham, Maine. On page 12, I found these words, which I suppose our Ministry author also found. Says Sister White:

"I believe the Sanctuary to be cleansed at the end of the 2300 days, is the New Jerusalem Temple, of which Christ is a minister. The Lord showed me in vision, more than one year ago, that Brother Crosier had the true light, on the cleansing of the Sanctuary, etc., and that it was His will, that Brother Crozier should write out the view which he gave us in the Day-Star, Extra, February 7, 1846. I feel fully authorized by the Lord, to recommend that Extra to every saint. I pray that these lines may prove a blessing to you, and all the dear children who may read them." Signed E.G. White.

I lost no time to get a copy of that Extra and read it. As I write this I have before me a photostatic copy of the Day-Star Extra for February 7, 1846, and on pages 40 and 41 of that issue I read Brother Crosier's article. After having discussed certain theories in which he does not believe, Brother Crozier observes:

"But again, they say that the atonement was made and finished on Calvary, when the Lamb of God expired. So men have taught us, and so the churches and world believe; but it is none the more true or sacred on that account, if unsupported by Divine authority. Perhaps few or none who hold that opinion have ever tested the foundation on which it rests.

1. If the atonement was made on Calvary, by whom was it made? The making of the atonement is the work of a Priest, but who officiated on Calvary?--Roman soldiers and wicked Jews.

2. The slaying of the victim was not making the atonement; the sinner slew the victim, Leviticus 4:1-4,13-15, etc., after that the Priest took the blood and made the atonement. Leviticus 4:5-12, 16-21.

3. Christ was appointed High Priest to make the atonement, and He certainly could not have acted in that capacity till after His resurrection, and we have no record of His doing any thing on earth after His resurrection, which could be called the atonement.

4. The atonement was made in the Sanctuary, but Calvary was not such a place.

5. He could not according to Hebrews 8:4 make atonement while on earth. "If He were on earth, He should not be a Priest."

The Levitical was the earthly priesthood; the Divine Priesthood, the heavenly.

6. Therefore, He did not begin the work of making atonement, whatever the nature of that work may be, till after His ascension, when by His own blood He entered the heavenly sanctuary for us.

This, then is the "true light" which the Lord showed Sister White in vision, had His approval, and which she felt fully authorized to recommend to every saint.

sky

[Gibs]

Sky,

That is solid and scripture upholds it!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gerr]

If atonement did not begin until Jesus entered the heavenly sanctuary, how did Enoch, Elijah, & Moses enter heaven?

[doug yowell]

If atonement did not begin until Jesus entered the heavenly sanctuary, how did Enoch, Elijah, & Moses enter heaven?

I like these questions!Very important.

[JoeMo]

This is just my opinion -

God is transcendant to space and time. Even though in our physical realm, Christ died, resurrected, and ascended at a specific time, in the spiritual realm, God has already "lived" all of history - past, present, and future. I infer this from scriptures like 1 Peter 1:18-20:

"For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your ancestors, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. 20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. 21 Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God."

I tend to agree with SDA thought that Elijah and Moses were "types" of those who would be in the Kingdom (those who will not see death and those who will, respectively). I believe that the Atonement covered both those in the OT and the NT.

Is it fair to equate atonement with reconciliation? I think of Colossians 1: 17-21:

"17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself ALL things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross."

Doesn't "all" mean past, present and future?

Based on this logic (strained or flawed though it may be), atonement took place from before the foundations of the world. Either that or the atonement that took place at the cross was retroactive.

[Gibs]

"Enoch was a representative of Christ as surely as was the beloved disciple John. Enoch walked with God, and he was not, for God took him. To him was committed the message of the second coming of Christ. “And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.” The message preached by Enoch, and his translation to heaven, were a convincing argument to all who lived in Enoch’s time. These things were an argument that Methuselah and Noah could use with power to show that the righteous would be translated. {CTr 63.3}

That God who walked with Enoch was our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ. He was the light of the world then, just as He is today. Those living then were not without teachers to instruct them in the paths of life, for Noah and Enoch were Christians. The gospel is given in precept in Leviticus. Implicit obedience is required now, as then. How important it is that we understand the meaning of this word. Only two classes will be developed in the world—the obedient and the disobedient. This must be made apparent in all our labors. If we could only bear in mind that Christ, in disguise, is constantly by our side. “I am at your right hand to help you.” We are to be His witnesses to convince the sinner of sin. None can be compelled against their will, but they can be convinced. Christ is the miracle-working power that can do this.—Letter 119, 1895. {CTr 63.4}

Also these, Mt 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Of course the atonement was not yet done, but why would that prevent God from taking His righteous ones who are special to Him into Heaven. Who are we to ask God if He has a right to do that?

Remember all these had overcame sin.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

If atonement did not begin until Jesus entered the heavenly sanctuary, how did Enoch, Elijah, & Moses enter heaven?

I like these questions!Very important.

[Gerr]

I like the direction your thoughts are going. Your idead that atonement = reconciliation is born out by the fact that in Rom 5:11, the KJV renders the Gk katallage as 'atonement' while the ESV, NASB, NIV, NRSV, & NKJV all use 'reconciliation'. Consider this text: ‎NIV84 ‎‎Re 13:8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.

What does that mean - "Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world?"

I submit to all that atonement/reconciliation has been going on since A & E sinned, and will not be completed until this becomes reality:

The great controversy is ended. Sin and sinners are no more. The entire universe is clean. One pulse of harmony and gladness beats through the vast creation. From Him who created all, flow life and light and gladness, throughout the realms of illimitable space. From the minutest atom to the greatest world, all things, animate and inanimate, in their unshadowed beauty and perfect joy, declare that God is love. [bEGIN P.679] {GC88 678.3}

The Great Controversy Between Christ and Satan; Great Controversy. 1888 (678–679). Pacific Press Publishing Association.

That's when complete at-one-ment is achieved.

[Samie]

sky, I will address, based on Scriptures, one at a time for clarity, the questions you posted in post #557268. But before I do so, let me first cite what Scriptures say atonement is all about when it was done on Yum Kippur:

Quote:

Leviticus 16:30 For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the LORD.

Atonement is made to cleanse people from all sins, Scriptures say. But what makes atonement?

Quote:

Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

Therefore, as per Scriptures, it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul, and cleanses him from all sins.

Now, back to your questions. We start with No. 1.

1. If the atonement was made on Calvary, by whom was it made?

[Gibs]

The sacrifice was readied before the world for all sin. That is for the sin of all who would come to Him and put it away by use of His imparted Nature. The atonement however has not happened yet.

The "type" here on earth showed it at the end of the yr.. But in the "Real" it would be in the end of the age. We know when that great day started and we have been it it, 1844 SDA's none of you should have any problem with that. Can we prove it? You bet, it is very clear in scripture to the quickened.

How close is it to be completed? Very, very close, get serious all things are to end in a few short yrs but will seem forever for the reason of things that are coming down hard and fast on this rebellious old earth.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Samie]

Gibs, I highlighted your statement which appears to be NOT in accord with Scriptures.

The sacrifice was readied before the world for all sin. That is for the sin of all who would come to Him and put it away by use of His imparted Nature. The atonement however has not happened yet.

...

[Lysimachus]

All true Seventh-Day Adventists recognize that Atonement began in 31 A.D. upon Christ's death and ascension. Not one that I know of believe Atonement began in 1844.

[Lysimachus]

Leviticus

4:20 And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them.

4:26 And he shall burn all his fat upon the altar, as the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings: and the priest shall make an atonement for him as concerning his sin, and it shall be forgiven him.

4:31 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat is taken away from off the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the priest shall burn [it] upon the altar for a sweet savour unto the LORD; and the priest shall make an atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him.

4:35 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat of the lamb is taken away from the sacrifice of the peace offerings; and the priest shall burn them upon the altar, according to the offerings made by fire unto the LORD: and the priest shall make an atonement for his sin that he hath committed, and it shall be forgiven him.

The word "atonement" in the Hebrew has the actual definition of "a purging". So the sinner has been "cleansed", and this transpires all throughout the year.

The Day OF Atonement is "higher-level" of Atonement, on a corporate level. The final purification process at a more intense level before the High Priest comes out (second coming).

[skyblue888]

Samie, Christ did not act as Priest on Calvary for, "He should not be a Priest while on earth." Heb.8:4.

In the type there was the daily atonement and the yearly.

The yearly was called The Great Day of Atonement.

The daily atonement took place within the first apartment and the yearly (Great Day of Atonement) in the second apartment.

When Jesus ascended up on High, when He began His priestly ministry, the work of atonement began (antitype) by pleading His divine merits before the Father.

He did this for 1810 years and then on Oct.22,1844 He entered the second apartment to begin the final phase of the atonement. This is known as the Great antitypical Day of Atonement.

sky

[skyblue888]

All true Seventh-Day Adventists recognize that Atonement began in 31 A.D. upon Christ's death and ascension. Not one that I know of believe Atonement began in 1844.

Lysi, this is not what Crozier taught. There was no atonement made on Calvary's cross. Read his article.

sky

The offering of Himself on the cross was the "sacrificial atonement," not the atonement. The atonement could only begin once the Father had accepted the sacrifice. After His resurrection Christ ascended up on High and not until the Father had bowed in acceptance of the sacrifice did He begin His priestly ministry to atone for our sins.

I dont know how many times we have to quote the following to make this crystal clear:

"The intercession of Christ in our behalf is that of presenting His divine merits to the Father in the offering of Himself as our Substitute and Surety; for He ascended up on High to make atonement for our transgressions." Faith & Works,105.

In 1844 He entered the Most Holy to begin the final phase of the atonement preceded by the work of investigative judgment first of the dead and then the living.

[Gibs]

Sky,

They are missing the fact the atonement can only done by the one who is to be the High Priest in our behalf. Not the type as in the earthly this all pointed to what would be at the end. The earthly was done at the end of each yr.. The REAL it pointed to at the end of the age. We are now in the very last end of it.

He could not become our High Priest until after there was a sacrifice made and we know He was it. When His sacrifice was accepted then when it came time for it to begin He entered into the Holy of Holies and it commenced.

EGW states and she has it right!,

"We are now living in the great day of atonement. . . . All who would have their names retained in the book of life should now, in the few remaining days of their probation, afflict their souls before God by sorrow for sin and true repentance. There must be deep, faithful searching of heart." {AG 69.5}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[skyblue888]

Sky,

They are missing the fact the atonement can only done by the one who is to be the High Priest in our behalf. Not the type as in the earthly this all pointed to what would be at the end. The earthly was done at the end of each yr.. The REAL it pointed to at the end of the age. We are now in the very last end of it.

He could not become our High Priest until after there was a sacrifice made and we know He was it. When His sacrifice was accepted then when it came time for it to begin He entered into the Holy of Holies and it commenced.

EGW states and she has it right!,

"We are now living in the great day of atonement. . . . All who would have their names retained in the book of life should now, in the few remaining days of their probation, afflict their souls before God by sorrow for sin and true repentance. There must be deep, faithful searching of heart." {AG 69.5}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Gibs, sorry but I find your comments a bit confusing.

May be you made a mistake by saying that when His sacrifice was accepted then when it came time for it to begin He entered into the Holy of holies and it commenced.

The atonement did not commence in the second apartment but in the first apartment. You understand that, don't you? This was called the daily atonement. He did not enter the Most Holy (second apartment) until 1810 years later to begin the final atonement.

You seem to be saying that the atonement could only begin in the second apartment but we are told that Christ ascended up on High to make atonement for our transgressions, not in the Holy of holies, but in the holy place.

sky

[JoeMo]

Thanks, Gerry! Rev. 13:8 was actually the scripture I was searching for when I posted the others.

[Gerr]

All true Seventh-Day Adventists recognize that Atonement began in 31 A.D. upon Christ's death and ascension. Not one that I know of believe Atonement began in 1844.

I consider myself a card-carrying SDA, and I am convinced that atonement became available as soon as there was sin/sinner. If atonement began in 31 A.D., how did Enoch, Moses, & Elijah got to heaven? When a sinner repents, is forgiven and converted, is he not reconciled to God at that moment? Is he/she not AT-ONE with God? God in him/her and she/he in God?

Was not the Lamb "slain from the foundation of the world?" While it is true that Christ did not in fact shed His blood until the Cross, from God's standpoint, it was as good as done when He pronounced the protogospel in Gen 3:15.

[Samie]

Samie, Christ did not act as Priest on Calvary for, "He should not be a Priest while on earth." Heb.8:4.

[skyblue888]

Gerry, of course atonement was made before but it was made in type and it was just as effective. It was not the blood of the animals by which they were cleansed from sin. We understand that. The sinner confessed his sin upon the head of the slain victim and the priest took a sample of the blood and sprinkled it beyond the first veil of the sanctuary. This was atonement, the daily atonement. If the sinner understood the Gospel, he trusted in the merits of the blood of a Saviour to come.

But now the question is, Have the sins of Enoch, Moses, and Elijah been blotted out already or will they be blotted out and transfered unto the scapegoat when Christ shall make the final atonement moments before the 144,000 enter into the time of Jacob's trouble?

sky