90% knows nothing about FEAST OF DEDICATION Do YOU?

[Windsor]

Umfundize,

What is the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet?

[Umfundize]

Dual application: 1. event #1 refers to Antiochus Epiphanes who had offered a pig on the temple altar and then installed a statue of Zues in the Temple...carving its face so it could look like his own. 2. event #2 refers to the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 under Titus.Those are the dictums followed by most Christian scholars and commentators. And it makes most sense in my opinion.

[Windsor]

Dual application: 1. event #1 refers to Antiochus Epiphanes who had offered a pig on the temple altar and then installed a statue of Zues in the Temple...carving its face so it could look like his own. 2. event #2 refers to the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 under Titus.Those are the dictums followed by most Christian scholars and commentators. And it makes most sense in my opinion.

So since you are open to dual applications certainly you cannot rule out a third or even fourth application.

BTW: When was the temple cleansed from the abomination inflicted by Titus?

[Umfundize]

I personally believe ONLY in option #1. The part that makes sense, is the only two POSSIBLE views. The abomination of desolation Jesus referred to is different than the desolation of abomination Daniel referred to and did not require any "cleansing" per se. Neither did Daniel's Temple: it had to be RESTORED, not cleaned!

See NASB on Dan 8:14 Do you believe the blood of Jesus took SINS into heaven, as EGW said? Do you believe Jesus "dirtied" His Father's abode, so it could be cleaned hundreds of years later? Do you believe God remembers our sins? Do you believe sins were BLOTTED OUT at the cross, or is it NOW in the process of being blotted out, like EGW said: names are accepted and names are rejected during the IJ.

Are you certain about your salvation NOW and do you know if "your name came up" yet and the results? Enough good works? Or nor really sure?

[Overaged]

Yes; I am a "SCOFFER."

[Overaged]

The abomination of desolation Jesus referred to is different than the desolation of abomination Daniel referred to and did not require any "cleansing" per se. Neither did Daniel's Temple: it had to be RESTORED, not cleaned!

May I ask, please, why you say this? How would you prove, using only the Bible?

[CoAspen]

Quote:

90% knows nothing about FEAST OF DEDICATION Do YOU?

To answer the question........

1. No

2. Hasn't been proven why I should

3. Salvation impacted(belief in Christ), No

Not sure why people keep trying to complicate things, didn't work for the religious leaders of Christ day and it ain't going to work now!!!

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Umfundize

The abomination of desolation Jesus referred to is different than the desolation of abomination Daniel referred to and did not require any "cleansing" per se. Neither did Daniel's Temple: it had to be RESTORED, not cleaned!

May I ask, please, why you say this? How would you prove, using only the Bible?

[Ron Amnsn]

Quote:

90% knows nothing about FEAST OF DEDICATION Do YOU?

To answer the question........

1. No

2. Hasn't been proven why I should

3. Salvation impacted(belief in Christ), No

Not sure why people keep trying to complicate things, didn't work for the religious leaders of Christ day and it ain't going to work now!!!

This response would make sense if you didn't celebrate any non-required events. But I suspect that you don't respond like this if someone invites you to Thanksgiving dinner, or Christmas dinner, or a birthday celebration, or a 4th of July celebration.

Christians often refer to themselves as "spiritual Israel" and claim for themselves the covenants and promises that God made with the Israelites. However many Christians don't behave as if they had any connection to Israel or any affinity for anything to do with the Israelites. They come by that attitude somewhat honestly-- the early leaders of the Roman church were vigorously opposed to Jews and anything with Jewish characteristics, and that latent anti-Jewish attitude has not yet been purged from Protestantism.

I doubt that celebrating the Feast of Dedication would be necessary for salvation. However, it is something that Jesus participated in and it's a time to remember that good triumphs over evil, that God is sovereign over history, that sometime in the future God's laws will once again be established in the promised land, and that we as Gentiles are grafted in to a special nation and as new citizens of that commonwealth we have gained a rich cultural heritage.

[CoAspen]

What I chose to celebrate has no merit on its own. So, yes it does make sense. What holiday I choose to celebrate or how, is a personal choice. Why try to make ancient rituals any more important today, seems a 'mind game' that some wish to play.

[Umfundize]

The Feast of Dedication, Jesus observed in John 10:22,23, provides prima facie PROOF that Adventists are WRONG when we believe Daniel 8:14 refers to anything that occured in heaven on Oct 22,1844! This is one of the MOST SERIOUS theological issues you could ever investigate. Please read the last chapters in Adventist Alternative. That is what this thread is about. Read the chapter and THEN opine. Thanks for your contribution.

[Ron Amnsn]

What I chose to celebrate has no merit on its own. So, yes it does make sense. What holiday I choose to celebrate or how, is a personal choice. Why try to make ancient rituals any more important today, seems a 'mind game' that some wish to play.

I guess if loyalty to one's homeland is a 'mind game', then one might perhaps consider it to be a mind game to have an interest in the commemorations of the Israelites when it involves something that Christ was zealous about. 2Cor 2:16 tells us, "we have the mind of Christ." And we know from Scripture that the mind of Christ thought it worthwhile to be in Jerusalem at the Temple during the Feast of Dedication. (John 10:22ff)

[Ron Amnsn]

The Feast of Dedication, Jesus observed in John 10:22,23, provides prima facie PROOF that Adventists are WRONG when we believe Daniel 8:14 refers to anything that occured in heaven on Oct 22,1844! This is one of the MOST SERIOUS theological issues you could ever investigate. Please read the last chapters in Adventist Alternative. That is what this thread is about. Read the chapter and THEN opine. Thanks for your contribution.

If this thread is about proving that Adventists are "WRONG", then I'm in the wrong place. I agree that Adventists don't understand this part of Scripture, but I don't see anywhere in Scripture that we are called to prove that others are wrong. Teach the truth, brother. But don't waste your time proving that someone else is wrong. Just teach the truth.

[Kevin H]

The Feast of Dedication, Jesus observed in John 10:22,23, provides prima facie PROOF that Adventists are WRONG when we believe Daniel 8:14 refers to anything that occured in heaven on Oct 22,1844! This is one of the MOST SERIOUS theological issues you could ever investigate. Please read the last chapters in Adventist Alternative. That is what this thread is about. Read the chapter and THEN opine. Thanks for your contribution.

I strongly question the accuracy of the assumption that you need to make this statement. You have to first assume that Daniel was written to deal with the Antichous situation, and that this has to be the only application of the text. For this you have to assume that either there was no historical Daniel in the Babylonian period but that the text was anti-antiochus propaganda, or else you have have a Daniel living in Babylon who was not conserned with the crisis he was facing but was focused on the idea the Antiochus was coming. (Granted the typical Adventist does the same mistake when we see Daniel as focused on the pope coming. All of us need to study Daniel better, but in it's own historical context, not in these other contexts).

Second, you have to be a mind reader to read the mind of Jesus that he held the same assumption. And you have to assume that the Jews were unable to cellebrate the revival of their worship without holding your assumptions about Daniel.

[Gustave]

From my perspective SDA theology is simply in error with the rubrics they apply to Daniel...

...This can be observed without any difficulty.

A) When did the temple become unfit and require that it be vindicated?

Obviously this would have to be at some point subsequent to Jesus...

...Having the Jewish Liturgical actions performed on Him as an Infant.

Luke 2,27

And he came by the Spirit into the temple : and when the parents BROUGHT IN the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law, Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said, Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word: For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,

The Temple was obviously in operating order when the above took place...

...And it was obviously in operating order when Jesus attended the Feast of the Dedication.

...When do SDA's hold the timing of when the Temple was contaminated.

Obviously SDA's believe and promulgate that 22 October 1844 was when Christ...

...re-dedicated or cleansed the Temple in heaven.

...When and how was it that the Temple in heaven was contaminated?

The Prophet Daniel made it very clear that God said that there was ZERO possibility of failure...

...In other words saying that Jesus could have failed to execute Salvation.

...Is as heretical as it gets.

[Overaged]

A) When did the temple become unfit and require that it be vindicated?

[Gustave]

I am not so sure it was the "temple that was unfit." Can you please supply a specific, official SDA reference, to explain what you are saying here? I would appreciate hearing more about that.

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

I am not so sure it was the "temple that was unfit." Can you please supply a specific, official SDA reference, to explain what you are saying here? I would appreciate hearing more about that.

I thought the SDA rubric on the terminus of the 2300 year prophecy...

...Was that Christ "cleansed" or initiated a cleansing in a literal Temple in heaven.

...The one St. John describes as having witnessed in his Revelation.

One does not clean something that isn't dirty - on in this case "contaminated"...

...A contaminated foul Temple does not allow for valid Liturgical practices to be performed.

...Such as the types performed on Baby Jesus.

Therefore, between Jesus' attending of the Feast of the Dedication...

...And 1844 at some point the literal Temple in heaven would have had to become contminated.

...Thus making it so Christ had to squib it out so valid Liturgy could performed in it.

When did this happen?

...I think this is what unfundy is talking about.

[Gustave]

I would be interested to see what scripture you had in mind as you made this comment. I don't understand the whole temple-cleansing process mentioned in scripture quite the way you are expressing, so a reference point would be good for me.

Do you believe that the Temple on earth or in heaven was defiled...

...When Jesus had done to Him according to the Law within the gates of the Temple?

...How you answer this will help me generate the answer you've requested.

[Overaged]

LOL, Gus; i think we are pleasantly confusing one another... But that's OK.

You made this statement above:

Quote:

A contaminated foul Temple does not allow for valid Liturgical practices to be performed.

What I am trying to find out from you is where do you get this from? Which temple are you thinking that Adventists teach needs cleansing, and why? Any specific reference you can point to? Also, I am wondering where you get the idea of "valid liturgical practices?" You stated that "contamination" does not allow this; so I am presuming you are referring to the temple on Earth? At any rate; if you also have some reference for where you get this idea from; I am interested. Does it actually say in the Bible somewhere that "contamination" will not allow "valid liturgical practices?"

[Gustave]

SDA's teach that Christ started to "cleanse" the literal Temple in heaven in 1844...

...What mechanism is it that SDA's believe putrefied the Jerusalem Temple in heaven?

When Daniel says "in the days of these Kings" will the Great God of Heaven set up a kingdom...

...And that the kingdom would never fail or be given to another.

...When exactly do SDA's belive the kingdom was set up and who is in charge of it?

[Umfundize]

I am on the road and do not have the quote, but it was EGW who said that JESUS took our sins IN HIS BLOOD with Him to heaven! The implication is that it was none other than JESUS Himself Who defiled the Most Holy Place in order for it to be cleaned up later! Anyone have that reference?

[Kevin H]

I am also on the road and cannot take much time to write, but may I encourage you to look up the idea of temples and sacred mountains in the ancient world. I have not tried but it can probably be googled, but you should find it in good archaeology books or Henri Frankfor and others "Before Philosophy" 1946 Univeristy of Chicago Press. If you knew the historical context of the text you would see that your question does not fit the stituation.

The events on the temple on heaven and earth were seen as reflections of each other. That what ever happened in one also happened in the other. The Bible does not distinguish between the heavenly and earthly temple. There is the temple, it is in both places at once.

In the New Testament Paul applies the temple to the people who compose the church. Do you think that we might need cleaning?

[Ron Amnsn]

The events on the temple on heaven and earth were seen as reflections of each other. That what ever happened in one also happened in the other. The Bible does not distinguish between the heavenly and earthly temple. There is the temple, it is in both places at once.

That makes sense -- one was modeled after the other.

So when God tore the inner curtain (that represented Messiah's body) which divided the Most Holy place from the Holy place, God turned the two rooms into one room in both the earthly Temple and in the heavenly Temple.

That agrees with the usage of "holies" in Hebrews where in some key verses the author does not differentiate between the two rooms. It also agrees with the NT admonition for believers to come boldly before the "throne of Grace", referring to the "mercy seat". It also agrees with Revelation where it says that the ark of the covenant will be seen in the Temple in heaven, which would work if the inner curtain were removed.

The Jews tried undo God's change to the earthly Temple by restoring the inner curtain to the Temple in Jerusalem. SDA's have tried undo God's change to the heavenly Temple by restoring the inner curtain to the Temple in heaven.

[Gustave]

Then when did the Temple go from being "clean" or right to unclean, making it necessary for Christ to cleanse it?

...I would like to know specifically when this happened?