90% knows nothing about FEAST OF DEDICATION Do YOU?

[Overaged]

Then when did the Temple go from being "clean" or right to unclean, making it necessary for Christ to cleanse it?

...I would like to know specifically when this happened?

Lets just look to see if there are any kinds of scripture precedents, in terms of "cleansing something" in the "Temple."

Here are just two, of many possible examples:

2Ch_29:16 And the priests went into the inner part of the house of the LORD, to cleanse it, and brought out all the uncleanness that they found in the temple of the LORD into the court of the house of the LORD. And the Levites took it, to carry it out abroad into the brook Kidron.

Joh_2:14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:

Joh_2:15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;

I picked one from OT and one from NT to show that the idea is consistent, throughout scripture...what do you think Gus?

[Gustave]

Originally Posted By: Gustave

Then when did the Temple go from being "clean" or right to unclean, making it necessary for Christ to cleanse it?

...I would like to know specifically when this happened?

Lets just look to see if there are any kinds of scripture precedents, in terms of "cleansing something" in the "Temple."

Here are just two, of many possible examples:

2Ch_29:16 And the priests went into the inner part of the house of the LORD, to cleanse it, and brought out all the uncleanness that they found in the temple of the LORD into the court of the house of the LORD. And the Levites took it, to carry it out abroad into the brook Kidron.

Joh_2:14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:

Joh_2:15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;

I picked one from OT and one from NT to show that the idea is consistent, throughout scripture...what do you think Gus?

I'm familiar with Ancient Israel's Temple rubrics...

...When do you believe the Temple on earth OR the Temple in heaven became contaminated.

...So that Christ needed to start 'cleansing it'?

...& by what mechanism did filth contaminate the Temple?

[Overaged]

Well; I showed you two scriptures, one from OT and one from NT. Do you not think that they show a cleansing taking place? If so; then atleast we have established some precedent here. What do you see these two verses as signifying re cleansing something in the Temple?

[Gustave]

Well; I showed you two scriptures, one from OT and one from NT. Do you not think that they show a cleansing taking place? If so; then atleast we have established some precedent here. What do you see these two verses as signifying re cleansing something in the Temple?

Do you believe that the example you cited in 2 Ch supports the Temple being used "Liturgically"....

...By the Jews up to the point it was cleansed, according to the Commandment of the Lord?

...Or does the text explicitly state the Temple was Liturgically " out of service "?

When Jesus chased the money changers out of the Temple grounds...

...Was the Temple Liturgically operational or do you believe it was de - facto?

Are you comparing the SDA theological affirmation of Christ initiating the cleansing of the Temple in heaven....

...To the event of Christ chasing the money changers off the temple grounds?

In any event the second example you cited did not cause the evening and morning sacrifices to cease.....

...The Temple was still functioning.

[Overaged]

...The Temple was still functioning.

Thats part of my point:) so we are making progress.

How do you see your current use of "liturgical" in comparison to the "evening and morning sacrifices" that you mentioned "did not cease?"

[Gustave]

Originally Posted By: Gustave

...The Temple was still functioning.

Thats part of my point:) so we are making progress.

How do you see your current use of "liturgical" in comparison to the "evening and morning sacrifices" that you mentioned "did not cease?"

What do you mean how do I see it?

...In the one case you mention the Temple wasn't functioning...

...In the other it was fully functional.

Operational Temple:

A)

Luke 1,8

And it came to pass, that while he executed the priest's office BEFORE God in the order of his course, According to the custom of the priest's office, his lot was to burn incense when he went into the temple of the Lord. And the whole multitude of the people were praying without at the time of incense.

Inop Temple:

2 Ch 29,6

For our fathers have trespassed, and done that which was evil in the eyes of the Lord our God, and have forsaken him, and have turned away their faces from the habitation of the Lord, and turned their backs. Also they have shut up the doors of the porch, and put out the lamps, and have NOT burned incense nor offered burnt offerings in the holy place unto the God of Israel.

Do you believe A = B here Overaged?

[Gustave]

Overaged, when the Prophet Daniel spoke of the Liturgical services of the Temple "ceasing"...

...Do you believe that Daniel meant the Temple would be in a state such as 2nd Ch 29 describes.

...Or that the state of the Temple would be like it was in Christ's life?

[Overaged]

I do believe that A = B.

I will explain when I get a chance...lol. Sorry; I am signing off for the week end. I close with the following video - posted for a special reason, in response to your questions...

[Gustave]

Do you believe the Temple became literally inoperative OR de facto in 457 B.C.?

[Overaged]

Overaged, when the Prophet Daniel spoke of the Liturgical services of the Temple "ceasing"...

...Do you believe that Daniel meant the Temple would be in a state such as 2nd Ch 29 describes.

...Or that the state of the Temple would be like it was in Christ's life?

Well; I think scripture does allude to both scenarios as occurring in today's churches. We have to remember that "Then there was a war in heaven." Rev 12:7. Christians have long pondered how any such thing could happen in heaven; yet it did. The Bible doesn't set out to prove it; it just declares it.

The Bible declares, as I have now shown by several texts, the various states that the different churches in different ages would be found. The Bible doesn't set out to prove it; it just declares it.

Do you agree that because there was even "war in heaven" that it would signify the possiblity that there could also be something in the church that would need to be pitched out? The idea of having to cleanse the church or heaven of something is not a foreign concept in the Bible; what do you think?

[Overaged]

Do you believe the Temple became literally inoperative OR de facto in 457 B.C.?

I will come back to answer this question a little later...I am enjoying the discussion Gus! Don't stop now!

Oh; btw, I will also in next post comment on why I included the above video...

[Umfundize]

I have found a number of references where EGW stated that it was the blood of Jesus that defiled the heavenly sanctuary. There is not one Bible verse that says ANY sins are piled up in heaven or ever was! Ellen said JESUS, in fact, then polluted the sanctuary and still does! See SOP, vol 4, p.266 (1884); Great Controversy (1888 and 1911) p.421; The Story of Redemption, p.378; The Faith I Live By p.206

[Overaged]

Perhaps it would work better if you gave some of the quotes instead of just the page numbers? it is easier to see what's being said, and the context. Lets consider GC 421, which is one of the references you gave:

Quote:

Thither the faith of Christ's disciples followed Him as He ascended from their sight. Here their hopes centered, "which hope we have," said Paul, "as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest forever." "Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by His own blood He entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us." Hebrews 6:19, 20; 9:12. {GC 421.1}

For eighteen centuries this work of ministration continued in the first apartment of the sanctuary. The blood of Christ, pleaded in behalf of penitent believers, secured their pardon and acceptance with the Father, yet their sins still remained upon the books of record. As in the typical service there was a work of atonement at the close of the year, so before Christ's work for the redemption of men is completed there is a work of atonement for the removal of sin from the sanctuary. This is the service which began when the 2300 days ended. At that time, as foretold by Daniel the prophet, our High Priest entered the most holy, to perform the last division of His solemn work--to cleanse the sanctuary. {GC 421.2}

As anciently the sins of the people were by faith placed upon the sin offering and through its blood transferred, in figure, to the earthly sanctuary, so in the new covenant the sins of the repentant are by faith placed upon Christ and transferred, in fact, to the heavenly sanctuary. And as the typical cleansing of the earthly was accomplished by the removal of the sins by which it had been polluted, so the actual cleansing of the heavenly is to be accomplished by

422

the removal, or blotting out, of the sins which are there recorded. But before this can be accomplished, there must be an examination of the books of record to determine who, through repentance of sin and faith in Christ, are entitled to the benefits of His atonement. The cleansing of the sanctuary therefore involves a work of investigation--a work of judgment. This work must be performed prior to the coming of Christ to redeem His people; for when He comes, His reward is with Him to give to every man according to his works. Revelation 22:12. {GC 421.3}

Perhaps you could point out something specific in this passage which is not Biblical, and we can go from there?

[Umfundize]

There is just about NOTHING in the passage that IS Biblical! NO verses in the Bible that Jesus' blood "in fact" transported our sins into heaven, thusly polluting it! No verse in the Bible speaking of "records of sin" that is there and which are being "investigated". There is NOTHING in Scripture to back EGW up on this heresy! The question is this: who will accept the evidence...or lack of?

[Umfundize]

Very clearly, ANY SDA can read for themselves where EGW implies that NO ONE can have the assurance of salvation until their "case" had been reviewed! Your sins HAVE BEEN BLOTTED OUT at the cross!

[Overaged]

NO verses in the Bible that Jesus' blood "in fact" transported our sins into heaven, thusly polluting it!

OK; I am a little dense this morning. Can you please help me out? Where, in the Great Controversy quote that I gave above, does it say this about the blood of Jesus? Does it infact say that His blood pollutes the sanctuary?

[Overaged]

Very clearly, ANY SDA can read for themselves where EGW implies that NO ONE can have the assurance of salvation until their "case" had been reviewed! Your sins HAVE BEEN BLOTTED OUT at the cross!

[Umfundize]

Most Christians will agree that there is some sort of judgment going on in heaven, since sinners accept the gospel all the time. BUT, it is NOT an Investigation into "every sin and evil thought" when "names are accepted and names are rejected". The rewards Jesus will bring with Him pertains to the Earthly Millennium, when the Saints will be given different responsibilities.(parable of the cities).

As far as the EGW statement is concerned, please read the simple words, WITHIN CONTEXT: no matter how we cut the SDA pie, Ellen CLEARLY stated that, by faith, SDA's believe their sins were IN FACT (that means REALLY) carried BY THE BLOOD OF JESUS into HEAVEN. And that means the sin-bearing-blood of Jesus polluted or dirtyfied the abode of God for a long time (from AD 31 till today) to be cleaned up, beginning on Oct 22, 1844. That is HERESY and what makes other Christians call Adventists a CULT!

Please read the section you have quoted again, and think about the impact when others find out what Adventist believe! The Bible says our sins HAVE BEEN BLOTTED OUT and God FORGETS our sins. It is NOT STORED UP! How can we ever admit we are wrong on this? Should we? Most of our members don't believe it! Must they be disfellowshipped ?

[Overaged]

Most Christians will agree that there is some sort of judgment going on in heaven, since sinners accept the gospel all the time. BUT, it is NOT an Investigation into "every sin and evil thought" when "names are accepted and names are rejected". The rewards Jesus will bring with Him pertains to the Earthly Millennium, when the Saints will be given different responsibilities.(parable of the cities).

As far as the EGW statement is concerned, please read the simple words, WITHIN CONTEXT: no matter how we cut the SDA pie, Ellen CLEARLY stated that, by faith, SDA's believe their sins were IN FACT (that means REALLY) carried BY THE BLOOD OF JESUS into HEAVEN. And that means the sin-bearing-blood of Jesus polluted or dirtyfied the abode of God for a long time (from AD 31 till today) to be cleaned up, beginning on Oct 22, 1844. That is HERESY and what makes other Christians call Adventists a CULT!

Please read the section you have quoted again, and think about the impact when others find out what Adventist believe! The Bible says our sins HAVE BEEN BLOTTED OUT and God FORGETS our sins. It is NOT STORED UP! How can we ever admit we are wrong on this? Should we? Most of our members don't believe it! Must they be disfellowshipped ?

Again; I would ask you, or anyone else, where in the Great Controversy quote I submitted above, does it say this exact thing about the blood of Jesus?

[Overaged]

There is just about NOTHING in the passage that IS Biblical! NO verses in the Bible that Jesus' blood "in fact" transported our sins into heaven,

[Overaged]

Most Christians will agree that there is some sort of judgment going on in heaven, since sinners accept the gospel all the time. BUT, it is NOT an Investigation into "every sin and evil thought" when "names are accepted and names are rejected". The rewards Jesus will bring with Him pertains to the Earthly Millennium, when the Saints will be given different responsibilities.(parable of the cities).

The Bible clearly tells us that the sins of mankind are kept on some kind of "records." John the Revelator, identifies these records as "books" (Rev 20:12), and as "the book of life" (Rev 13:8, 17:8, 20:12, and 21:27). In the work of judgment that Christ performs in the heavenly sanctuary, (Heb 7:25), the "book of life" is the one that is used, because the Bible also tells us that "the books are opened;" during the millenium. (Rev 20:12).

This being the case, then it is easy to see how the Investigative Judgment is only for those whose names are written in the book of life. Those whose names are not written in the book of life, are obviously judged during the millenium. (Rev 20:12) Before the second coming of Christ, they are called "those who dwell upon the earth;" (Rev 13:8, 17:8). During the millenium, John names them as "the dead." At that time, "hoi nekroi" are judged "out of those things which were written in the books; according to their works." (Rev 20:12)

So the Bible tells us that this "book of life" is used during the investigative judgment, and the other records which John just called 'the books" will be used in the judgment of the wicked during the millenium.

By these, and other brief facts from the Bible; I see a lot of assurance and inspiration in Christ's ministry in the heavenly sanctuary; and I am glad to see that Ellen G White's writings reinforce these Biblical concepts of the judgment by pointing us to all of these pertinent scriptures.

Throughout the Bible, Jesus teaches us about atonement, vindication, cleansing, and judgment, and we should be praising His holy name for "all His wonderful works towards the children of men." (Psalms 107:31)

[Umfundize]

Why do "they" have to investigate anyone's "record" if your name is ALREADY in the Book of Life? To make sure God did'nt make a mistake?

The "books" referred to in Rev 20:12 are not sin-records, but "BIBLIA" =the Scriptures. The people who live on EARTH during the Millennium will be judged according to their reaction to what they have studied from Scripture at the feet of the SAINTS Rev 5:10. As they accept Christ, their names are recorded in the Book of Life that is operative again during this time

The names of the saints, at that time, is ALREADY in the Book of Life! That is why they met Jesus in the air at the second coming :Zach 14

Please download Adventist Alternative and read a detailed description of the Millennium in the last chapters. In explains Rev 12 in DETAIL.

Ask yourself the question: is it POSSIBLE that I could be wrong? That Adventist eschatology could be wrong by not making ANY provision for those who never had opportunity to hear the gospel one time? Of the 153k people who die every day, more than two thirds have never heard the gospel, including babies of a year and younger! THAT is the REASON for the EARTHLY Millennium! God wants EVERYBODY to have an equal opportunity.

[Overaged]

Why do "they" have to investigate anyone's "record" if your name is ALREADY in the Book of Life? To make sure God didnt make a mistake?

The "books" referred to in Rev 20:12 are not sin-records, but "BIBLIA" =the Scriptures. The people who live on EARTH during the Millennium will be judged according to their reaction to what they have studied from Scripture at the feet of the SAINTS Rev 5:10.

[Overaged]

Why do "they" have to investigate anyone's "record" if your name is ALREADY in the Book of Life? To make sure God did'nt make a mistake?

[Gail]

Why do "they" have to investigate anyone's "record" if your name is ALREADY in the Book of Life? To make sure God did'nt make a mistake?

The names of the saints, at that time, is ALREADY in the Book of Life! That is why they met Jesus in the air at the second coming :Zach 14

Perhaps as a record that shows God's justice in justifying all those who come to Him for forgiveness? The focus may be not the task of rejudging the penitent as much as vindicating God who judges the heart and faith, not by our human sight. We now need to trust that His justice really is just because He says so, but the judgment makes it plain, especially to any whose job it is to accuse God and His people. The judgment says to him, Leave them alone- they are mine.

Quote:

Ask yourself the question: is it POSSIBLE that I could be wrong? That Adventist eschatology could be wrong by not making ANY provision for those who never had opportunity to hear the gospel one time? Of the 153k people who die every day, more than two thirds have never heard the gospel, including babies of a year and younger! THAT is the REASON for the EARTHLY Millennium! God wants EVERYBODY to have an equal opportunity.

I don't agree that there is no provision for those who have never heard the Gospel. God sees the heart and Psalm 87:4,6 says that God takes into account a person's background.