Where will the Righteous Spend the Millennium?

[Windsor]

Originally Posted By: Gibs

Samie, you say,

"Scriptures describe the millennium starts with all the wicked slain at the battle of Armageddon and Satan captured and imprisoned in the bottomless pit (Rev 19:19 - 20:3). Scriptures explicitly say the saints will reign with Christ for 1000 years (Rev 20:4), and that this reign will be on the earth."

I sure don't know how you read, but try this,

Re 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Re 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Re 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Re 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Re 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Re 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Re 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Re 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Re 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

That old KJV read is simple 5'th grade level and lays it out so none should not see how it is to transpire!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Oh, of course, no one's arguing you are more than a fifth grader. That's not the issue. But you seem to just ignore Rev 5:9, 10, where the millennial reign should transpire.

Quote:

Revelation 5:9-10

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

So where does Scripture say they will reign in heaven? Of course, none. That's why I was telling you, your position is but an ASSUMPTION.

SHALL reign on the Earth. SHALL. Not ARE reigning on the Earth. It's SHALL because it is in the future still.

[Gibs]

Samie,

The saints will only in eternal time, a thousand yrs as a day, be in Heaven a day and will come back to earth to reign then for eternity.

You see this has been Satan and his angels prison house and the grave yard for the damned.

When the saints do come back and set foot on it again, it will no longer be a grave yard and will be made totally new. All remembrace of any of them you knew will be wiped out of your mind.

Do you think God would have us dwell here with our advesary the devil during that time with the graves of some we once loved who were not truly of the family of God.

Your true family is those of God and our own brother or mom or pop may not be. Or even the one you held so high as your pastor who maybe taught false things.

This earth will be a rubble pile after the coming and fresh potable water mixed with sewage and oil and ocean water and all the neuclear plants radiation of the world worse than the one in Japan.

Naw let's stay with Jesus in Heaven until He brings us back in the Holy City and resurrects the damned and turns Satan loose and Satan gathers them and makes his attempt and then it'll all be over, He makes the earth anew and we set foot on it again for eternity this time.

Heaven is a big place and it will take awhile to take in and see all it's wonders and too Jesus has us go over all the cases with Him of men and angels of Satan.

1Co 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

1Co 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Windsor]

God will not wipe away the memory of every lost person from the mind of every saved person. Would a father ever forget a lost child or a lost spouse? Will David forget Absalom? How can he when the scriptures will forever contain the story?

[whatisthis]

There are two kinds of forgetting. There's amnesia, and then there is child-bearing forgetting. It's easy to remember that it hurt, and even which labor hurt more (or less). But the sting stops.

[Gibs]

If you regard EGW,

"And in His presence the trials and sufferings of this life will seem as nothingness. The former things “shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.” {Hvn 186.4}

"One reminder alone remains: Our Redeemer will ever bear the marks of His crucifixion. Upon His wounded head, upon His side, His hands and feet, are the only traces of the cruel work that sin has wrought". . . . {CTr 372.4}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Lysimachus]

and they [the saints] shall reign for ever and ever.

Thus we see that "reigning" is not necessarily tied to the millennium. Whether one is in heaven, or on earth, we will be reigning with Christ.

So to draw parallels that because we are told we are "reigning" with Christ during the 1000 years and other texts that mention we will be "reigning" on the earth, are false ones at best.

Reigning means to be with Christ, whether in heaven or on earth.

The reigning begins at the Second Coming.

The first portion of this reigning will be in heaven, in the New Jerusalem.

The second portion of this reigning will be when we come back to this earth with the New Jerusalem after the 1000 years.

[Samie]

There will be no live people on this planet during the millenium because they will all be dastroyed by the "brightness of His coming," 2 Thes 2:8.

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Revelation 22:5

and they [the saints] shall reign for ever and ever.

Thus we see that "reigning" is not necessarily tied to the millennium. Whether one is in heaven, or on earth, we will be reigning with Christ.

So to draw parallels that because we are told we are "reigning" with Christ during the 1000 years and other texts that mention we will be "reigning" on the earth, are false ones at best.

Reigning means to be with Christ, whether in heaven or on earth.

The reigning begins at the Second Coming.

The first portion of this reigning will be in heaven, in the New Jerusalem.

The second portion of this reigning will be when we come back to this earth with the New Jerusalem after the 1000 years.

And you purposely omitted the portion of the 'reigning' which Revelation 5:9, 10 say will be on this earth before New Jerusalem comes down to the New Earth, and purposely added a "reigning" in heaven which Revelation do not say?

Did you forget Rev 22:18, 19?

[Samie]

Scriptures say there will come a time when the just will inherit the earth with no wicked around:

Quote:

Psalm 37:9-11

9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.

10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.

11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

Verse 10 says the earth to be inherited is one which the wicked had previously occupied, but they are then nowhere to be found in that place they formerly where. This earth referred to is this earth. It can not be the New Earth, for NO wicked had ever been there. Rev 5:9, 10 explicitly says, the reign will be on this earth.

Unanswered...

Why? Biblically unimpeachable.

There is no Biblical basis for the position that the millennial reign will be in heaven. The only basis is ASSUMPTION.

[Gibs]

Samie,

You must realize that after Jesus comes and catchs up the saints Satan and his angels are chained to this earth, the bottomless pit, that is they cannot leave it. The scripture makes it clear they are bound for a thousand yrs. The damned are buried here also and will be for a thousand yrs.

Re 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Re 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

What do ye imagine? That the saints will be here with them? This earth is left desolate torn up and polluted that none could live here. Do ye imagine Jesus will make it anew for Satan and his and while the graves of the damned are yet here to be resurrected He would have to save them for the resurrection of the damned.

Now read these verses and were is He that we will be with Him? He says ye know, yes I know, so should you!

Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Joh 14:4 ¶ And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

[Samie]

To Gibs & all who take the Bible and the Bible alone as the ONLY basis for deciding questions on doctrine;

1. The saints will spend the millennium living and reigning with Christ (Rev 20:4)

2. The saints will reign on the earth (Rev 5:9, 10).

3. The saints will inherit the earth with abundant peace at a time when the wicked are not on this earth anymore. (Ps 37:9-11)

The verses above clearly tell us the saints are on this earth during the Millennium. In contrast, those who teach the saints will spend the Millennium in heaven has no single verse to show proving their position. They take John 14:1-3 as evidence for their belief, but those verses merely indicate Christ going to heaven to prepare a place and then come again to receive the saints to Himself. Yes, the saints, as their reward, will go to heaven with Christ after the 2nd Coming to attend the wedding of the Lamb, while the wicked suffer the 7 last plagues, but they again will return to this earth for the battle of Armageddon, at which end all wicked will be slain (Rev 19:1-21). Satan will be chained and thrown into the bottomless pit (Rev 20:1-3). The millennium starts with Christ and the saints still here on earth still fresh from victory at Armageddon.

[Gibs]

Re 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Yes after the second resurrection and Satan and his are dust on a new made earth.

Where do you think Satan is chained to have to stay? The same place he was cast when out of heaven, the bottomless pit.

Re 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Lysimachus]

And you purposely omitted the portion of the 'reigning' which Revelation 5:9, 10 say will be on this earth before New Jerusalem comes down to the New Earth, and purposely added a "reigning" in heaven which Revelation do not say?

Did you forget Rev 22:18, 19?

Where in Revelation 5:9,10 does it say that this "reigning" takes place "before New Jerusalem comes down to the New Earth"?

Did you forget that Revelation is not written in chronological order? It often repeats, backs up, enlarges, repeats, backs up, enlarges. Keep in mind that if you read Revelation in the order that you are, you'll end up with the New Jerusalem coming down from heaven 3 times, and there will also be 3 lakes of fires, and the wicked being raised twice and being destroyed. In fact, after the wicked have been thoroughly destroyed in Revelation 20, and the New Earth instituted, you have dogs, sorcerers, whoremongers, murderers idolaters, and whoever loves and makes a lie OUTSIDE Of the New Jerusalem in 22:15, lol.

Adventists, such as Pastor Stephen Bohr, have meticiulously broken down all these passage in exhaustive studies, outlining the proper rules of how to interpret these passages.

You also ignored Revelation 19:1, where after the destruction of Babylon, we have: "And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia"

Then you have a backup, and a repeat of new information from a different angle beginning in 19:6-21, which describes the Second Advent, which leaves no human beings on earth. Compare to 2 Thess 4:13-18, and you will see that the saints are caught up into the sky.

By the way, I have dealt with all your arguments in other forum discussions I was involved with in the links I gave you earlier.

It's time to quit pretending that you are are the only tutor around here Samie, and for a change realize that perhaps it is time for us to tutor you.

[jasd]

Quote:

Quote:Lysimachus

Did you forget that Revelation is not written in chronological order? It often repeats, backs up, enlarges, repeats, backs up, enlarges. Keep in mind that if you read Revelation in the order that you are, you'll end up with the New Jerusalem coming down from heaven 3 times, and there will also be 3 lakes of fires, and the wicked being raised twice and being destroyed. In fact, after the wicked have been thoroughly destroyed in Revelation 20, and the New Earth instituted, you have dogs, sorcerers, whoremongers, murderers idolaters, and whoever loves and makes a lie OUTSIDE Of the New Jerusalem in 22:15, lol.

[...]

Then you have a backup, and a repeat of new information from a different angle beginning in 19:6-21, which describes the Second Advent, which leaves no human beings on earth.

Oh, wow...,

and here I thought you'd forwarded elsewhere the 'simple Writ' for 'simple minds' concept, ie: "he wrote the prophecies in a way so that simple minds can understand." --Lysimachus

[Samie]

Quote:

Quote:Lysimachus

Did you forget that Revelation is not written in chronological order? It often repeats, backs up, enlarges, repeats, backs up, enlarges. Keep in mind that if you read Revelation in the order that you are, you'll end up with the New Jerusalem coming down from heaven 3 times, and there will also be 3 lakes of fires, and the wicked being raised twice and being destroyed. In fact, after the wicked have been thoroughly destroyed in Revelation 20, and the New Earth instituted, you have dogs, sorcerers, whoremongers, murderers idolaters, and whoever loves and makes a lie OUTSIDE Of the New Jerusalem in 22:15, lol.

[...]

Then you have a backup, and a repeat of new information from a different angle beginning in 19:6-21, which describes the Second Advent, which leaves no human beings on earth.

Oh, wow...,

and here I thought you'd forwarded elsewhere the 'simple Writ' for 'simple minds' concept, ie: "he wrote the prophecies in a way so that simple minds can understand." --Lysimachus

Amen to that , jasd. But Lysi has different standards: when it comes to the point where he cannot rely on Scriptures to back up his position, then Scriptures must be interpreted the way he wanted it and gives you a link or an author of his own kind. He even omits and adds at will disregarding Rev 22:18, 19. And he wants to tutor those who stand by the Bible and the Bible alone.

Thanks, Lysi, for the offer of tutorship. But it's the Holy Spirit Who tutors me.

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

And you purposely omitted the portion of the 'reigning' which Revelation 5:9, 10 say will be on this earth before New Jerusalem comes down to the New Earth, and purposely added a "reigning" in heaven which Revelation do not say?

Did you forget Rev 22:18, 19?

Where in Revelation 5:9,10 does it say that this "reigning" takes place "before New Jerusalem comes down to the New Earth"?

[Umfundize]

Lysimachus:

I am afraid you are totally wrong and Samie is 100% correct with his defence of the earthly millennium. Do you realise that Adventists are the only people ON EARTH who believe the non-sense of a time when they will "study" the sin-records of the lost? Why? What do they say is the REASON for auditing Jesus' judgment? Do they not TRUST Jesus?

Perhaps you have another reason why "Priests will rule over each other" in heaven!

Forget about Bohr who gets paid to try and defend SDA dogma. He is totally WRONG! Revelation does reverse here and there for more detailed explanations, like Gen 1 and 2, but the flow is constantly FORWARD and, especially Rev 19-22 is in perfect chronological order.

The Jerusalem of Rev 20:9 is NOT the NEW Jerusalem which is the very abode of the Father and only comes down, like Samie pointed out, AFTER hell is over and the New heaven and earth had been established. And THIS you can take to the bank!

[Lysimachus]

I'm sorry to burst your bubble Umfundaize, but I am afraid that Samie is 100% wrong, and you are as well.

In the links I have provided, they have all soundly dealt with these arguments. But, from your responses, I can tell that you have not read them.

1. It is a MYTH that "priests reign over each other" in heaven. We will all be priests, but that does not mean we need people to reach out to.

The notion that we are going to be priests ruling over the wicked is a ridiculous myth that was concocted by the Jesuits and Dispensationalists who got this myth, not from the Bible, but from the Psuedepigraphal books of GARBAGE . It is unbiblical as can get. It is perfidious Jesuit, obnoxious theology. And it is going DOWN. As I have already shown, on earth, we shall "shall reign for ever and ever" (22:5). Should we interpret this to mean that we will be ruling over wicked people forever? Oh, so that means wicked people live forever and ever? Don't be ridiculous.

This idea that because we are labeled "priests", that this means there must be people to preach the gospel to all the time, is SHEER myth. Sheer foolishness. It is a HUMAN INVENTION!

Revelation 19-22 is NOT in perfect chronological order. Do I make myself clear?

And no Samie, I refuse to debate you about Revelation 19. It IS the Second Coming, and that is final. I will not debate it with you because the plain utterances of the text will not allow it. Period.

You have to go REALLY out to lunch in your mind to not accept that the descriptions portrayed in 19:11 where "heaven is opened", and the "smiting of the nations" (v.15) takes place, and how in vss. 17-21 the flesh of ALL men are in the mouth of fowls, etc. etc. is a picture of the Second Advent--these descriptions being CLEARLY extracted from Old Testament passages in Joel and Isaiah and Zephaniah that are also alluding to the Second Advent. However, throughout the chapter, small intermittent intermissions occur to grasp a beautiful picture of the supper of the lamb. It is not written to outline eschatological chronology, but portraying "spiritual concepts" revolving the Second Coming.

Umfundaize, Revelation 20:1-10 is one chronological "block". 20:11-21:1 is another "block",repeating and enlarging (have you ever seen movies that do this? They start from the end, then flash back?). The sea that gives up the "dead" in 20:13 is simply a "repetition and enlargement" of 20:5, where the dead lived "not again until the thousand years are expired". In verses 14 and 15, you have a "repetition and enlargement" of verses 9 and 10 concerning the "lake of fire". In 21:1, you have the final "conclusion" of that particular message. THEN, beginning in 21:2, John now backs up to describe events from a "different" angle. He didn't have a chance to describe the Beloved City coming down yet and what it looked like when it came down, so now John is going to describe the New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven, and is jumping "backward", giving a flashback of what that "Beloved City" looked like in chapter 20. It is the New Jerusalem. Remember, you have the New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven in Revelation 3:21 too! lol. No, 21:2 is not a "next in scenario" description...meaning, that it comes down after the earth is made new. I disagree! Not so! You won't budge me on this one!

The ultimate proof that it is not written in chronological order is that in 21:10, the New Jerusalem comes down AGAIN! Then you have "dogs and murderers" "OUTSIDE" the city in 22:15, but they were already destroyed in chapter 20! And you have the lake of fire again in 21:8.

In Revelation, you have the following expressed describing the New Jerusalem:

1. New Jerusalem (3:12; 21:2)

2. City of my God (3:12)

3. Holy City (21:2; 22:19)

4. Holy Jerusalem (21:10)

5. Great City (21:10)

6. Beloved City (20:9)

I'm going to tell you Straight Unfundamize. For you to conclude that the expression "beloved city" is attributed to the Local Palestinian Jerusalem that you see today, all beat up by bombs and falling apart, and while ALL the other expressions are referring to the New Jerusalem, is absolute, and I'll say it and say it again, ABSOLUTELY PREPOSTEROUS! ABSOLUTELY PREPOSTEROUS! It is RIDICULOUS!

The Old Jerusalem is not mentioned ONCE in Revelation! No, not even in 11:8. Everything in Revelation is Antitypical, and Global, NOT Local.

The very fact that John uses SO many expressions for the New Jerusalem lends GREAT credence to the fact that the Beloved City in 20:9 is the New Jerusalem. Why Paul even calls it "The Jerusalem which is above" (Gal 20:6). He clearly said that the "Jerusalem which is now" (Gal 4:25) has been "cast out" and in bondage! (4:30). You SERIOUSLY think that the Beloved City is the same Jerusalem that has been "cast out" Unfundamize??

Seriously?

No you don't! And you won't convince me either!

You guys are WRONG in your interpretation of the millennium. PLAIN AND UNMISTAKABLY SCRIPTURALLY WRONG!

The earth will be DESOLATE DURING THE MILLENNIUM, and we will be reigning as priests IN HEAVEN during the millennium, AND after the New Earth is made.

Here is your problem Unfundamize.

With your skewed lenses of Jesuit-Psuedepigraphal prophetic interpretation, type always ends up reverting back to type, local always ends up reverting back to local, and literal always ends up reverting back to literal.

Yet God's Word is clear. The Old Testament is the New Testament Concealed, while the New Testament is the Old Testament Revealed.

The New Testament is the expositor of the Old Testament. The New Testament defines the Antitypes of Old Testament Types.

Literal Israel and Literal Babylon served as types for the future world-wide and global Spiritual Babylon vs. Spiritual Israel, as clearly delineated in Revelation.

Types always point forward to Antitypes!

Local always points forward to Global!

Literal always points forward to Spiritual!

Break these rules, and you will make MASSIVE theological and eschatological shipwreck your faith!

[Lysimachus]

Here are some studies on the millennium to chew on, and get your nose out of Jesuit-inspired books for a change:

The 1000 Year Millennium – Following Jesus’ Second Coming:

http://www.creation-science-prophecy.com/1000years.htm

The True Nature of the Millennium:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/75414093/The-True-Nature-of-the-Millennium-1-0#fullscreen (I wrote this one)

The second coming and the millennial kingdom (started by “maco” attacking SDA position of millennium, but Biblical evidence concluded thread in favor of Adventist position after I and a number of other SDA’s responded):

http://www.christianforums.com/t7650467/ (make sure to read all the other pages and my responses—I go by Username “Lysimachus”)

One Thousand Years – Millennium, Here or There? (by username “3 Angels Messages”---his posts and my posts combined provide a sound Biblical defense of the Adventist position of the millennium):

http://www.christianforums.com/t7649417/ (make sure to read all the other pages and my responses---I go by Username “Lysimachus”)

The 1000 Year Millennium – Shocking Facts about a Misunderstood Prophecy and your Eternal Destiny by Steve Wohlberg

http://www.1000yearmillennium.com/

The 1000 Year Millennium – A short Study on the sequence of events before, during and after the millennium:

http://www.1000yearmillennium.info/

Frequently Asked Questions:

http://www.1000yearmillennium.com/1000yearmillennium.html

1000 Years Here Or 1000 Years There?

http://awhn.webs.com/1000yearshereorthere.htm

The millennium: Its Old Testament roots - by Hans K. LaRondelle

http://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive/1982/November/the-millennium:-its-old-testament-roots

The one thousand years of Revelation 20 - by Hans K. LaRondelle

http://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive/1982/September/the-one-thousand-years-of-revelation-20

The Millennium, a Golden Age on Earth—Or in Heaven? - by Arthur J. Ferch

http://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive/...%94or-in-heaven

The Millennium: a revelation of God's character - by Hans K. LaRondelle

http://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive/1983/January/the-millennium:-a-revelation-of-gods-character

When will Isaiah 11:6-9 Be Fulfilled - by A. V. Olson

http://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive/1961/June/when-will-isaiah-11:6-9-be-fulfilled

Amillennialism Reconsidered – by Beatrice S. Neall – Union College, Lincoln, Nebraska

http://www.auss.info/auss_publication_file.php?pub_id=1101&journal=1&type=pdf

The Gnostic Roots of Amillennialism & Dispensationalism (non-SDA):

http://www.oasischristianchurch.org/air/gnostic_roots.pdf

The Non-Christian Anti-cosmic Roots of Amillennialism (non-SDA):

http://www.biblicalreader.com/btr/pdf/Gnosticism_and_Amillennialism.pdf

My Biblical studies and historical research compels me to stick with Adventist - Historicist - Premillennialism -- a FAR CRY from Amillennialism, Postmillennialism, and Dispensational-Futurist-Premillennialism, but intrinsically rooted in the Word of God.

[Umfundize]

Most of your references are based on Ellen White's rubberstamps. Try and break out of the Adventist box and Google Rev 20:9 Jerusalem. Then you will read how BETTER scholars prove to you which city that REALLY is. Apart, of course, from your common sense.(Are you sure Hans did'nt change his mind before his death? He did so on other positions!) And do not ask me to elaborate,I won't.

I am wondering if you have been so brainwashed that you have developed a phobia to even think about the possibility SDA could be wrong! EGW would have been very proud of you. Like you said: putting it STRAIGHT to you! Were you ever wrong on anything?

Samie, you stick with the Bible and you will win every argument!

[Lysimachus]

Sorry Umfundize, I know people who came to this conclusion on the Millennium without Ellen White.

In fact, it was our studious pioneers that came to the conclusion. Ellen White simply endorsed their Biblical findings and commented on it.

You can do VAST studies by J.N. Andrews, James White, Loughborough, A.T. Jones, Waggoner, etc. on the Millennium. Their apologetic works on the Millennium are works of Biblical endowment and knowledge, far more than any of the "mr. know it alls" that exist today.

You think you're smart Umfundize because you have the Internet and a flat screen TV. But there's no way that you have taken the time to break down the scriptures like the many men who have gone before.

It's very simple Umfundize,

At the Second Coming, all the wicked are destroyed by the brightness of His coming (as clearly delineated in 2 Thess 5:1-3)--they shall "not escape" and "sudden destruction" shall come upon them. While all the saints are "caught up into the air" in chapter 4 just before.

That leaves how many people on the earth during the millennium?

Or are you to propose the lunacy that God catches up all the saints in the air, then sets them RIGHT back down on the earth? lol? What was that for? to show off?

It makes perfect sense for God's saints to take a vacation AWAY from this earth, in heaven where God dwells. That we get to experience BOTH worlds. God's world, and heaven on earth.

Adventism is the only eschatological system that resolves all the former protestant dillemmas in their interpretation of the millennium.

In order to "resolve" the problem that the saints will be in heaven where the mansions are, they were forced to create the "secret pre-tribulation rapture" theory to try and resolve this problem. In other words, this "solves the problem of them being in heaven in the new Jerusalem, yet also reigning with Christ on earth for 1000 years".

But by creating a 2-part Second Coming---first the rapture of the Church, then the Second Coming at the end of the "7 year tribulation", they create more problems then they resolve. According to them, now the saints come back to the earth at the end of the 7 years so they can reign on earth. But then they shoot themselves in the foot because 1 Thess 4:13-17 clearly calls this "catching up" into the clouds the "parousia"--same second coming terminology used in Matthew 24 and Mark 13--where they will be "gathered as far as up to the sky".

Adventism resolves all this ridiculousness. At the Second Coming is when everyone is taken up to heaven, and the saints do not return until the end of the 1000 years with the New Jerusalem. It creates a "perfect symmetry" within the eschatological framework, and resolves ALL the evangelical eschatological problems out there.

I have come to a conclusion Umfundize---the reason people do not like the Adventist interpretation of the millenniumm, is because they are "earthly people". They love this world of sin, and do not want to go to heaven. They would rather stay here.

That's the root of the problem!

[Lysimachus]

Let's STICK to Scriptures ALONE and see what the Bible says about the Millennium. Read the following in order:

1. http://www.christianforums.com/t7650467/#post60329025

2. http://www.christianforums.com/t7650467/#post60329034

3. http://www.christianforums.com/t7650467/#post60329174

4. http://www.christianforums.com/t7650467/#post60329184

5. http://www.christianforums.com/t7650467/#post60329220

6. http://www.christianforums.com/t7650467/#post60329299

7. http://www.christianforums.com/t7650467/#post60329303

8. http://www.christianforums.com/t7650467/#post60329336

9. http://www.christianforums.com/t7650467/#post60329372

10. http://www.christianforums.com/t7650467/#post60329381

11. http://www.christianforums.com/t7650467/#post60329385

12. http://www.christianforums.com/t7650467/#post60329403

Please read these posts of mine, as they thoroughly break down all the scriptures that reveal an uninhabited planet after the Second Advent.

[Lysimachus]

Notice:

Quote:

Revelation 20: 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Stop right there. Notice that the wicked go up and encompass the city, and then fire comes down and "devours them". So at this point, the wicked are "no more"--and from this point, now wicked people will ever exist.

Now notice:

Quote:

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works

At this point, we clearly see that there are "wicked people" again standing outside of the City. Therefore, this has to be repeating again verse 9, but adding more details.

Now notice:

Quote:

20:13 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

So there are no more wicked people at this point. Revelation 21 clearly delineates that there is "no more pain" "no more sorrow", "no more tears".

But now look!

Quote:

Revelation 22:14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

John as you can see, is clearly "backing up" to a time when there are wicked outside the city.

But since all the wicked are destroyed in Revelation 20, this forces the fact that the "Beloved City" has to be the New Jerusalem, for it is only during the surrounding of the "Beloved City" that there are ever wicked existing outside of any city.

[Lysimachus]

Umfundize,

By the way, would you like to know how the "majority" of non-SDA commentarians interpretated the "Beloved City" in Revelation 20:9?

Would you really like to know?

Take a look:

http://bible.cc/revelation/20-9.htm

Barnes, Clarke, Gill, People's New Testament, Wesley, Matthew Henry, etc.?

They interpreted it as the Christian Church. The wicked surrounding the Christian Church. Unfortunately, this was the other "ditch"--spiritualizing it away, as they had not shaken Augustinianism away completely yet.

Extreme 1: Literalizing it to Old Jerusalem in Palestine.

Extreme 2: Spiritualizing it to just being the Christian Church being surrounded by God's enemies.

The Adventist interpretation:

It is literally the New Jerusalem--which is a literal symbolic structure spiritually representing the Christian Church, with the literal Christian Church inside of it. The Literal Beloved City spiritually symbolizes the Literal Christian Church---the body of the saints. Hebrews 12:22.

While we are not "physically" in the New Jerusalem yet, God's people are "citizens" of that city, and are spiritually standing on Mount Zion, because our names are registered there, and one day that will be our literal home.

One may be a citizen of New York City, but they are living in California, for example.

So....

These old commentarians....believed that the Beloved City was the New Jerusalem. The only twist was that they thought it was just a spiritual symbol representing the Church, and not an actual city. They believed the New Jerusalem was the Christian Church.

Umm...this is closer to the Adventist view than what most present scholars teach.. And what is it that most modern scholars today teach? That the Beloved City has nothing to do with the New Jerusalem, but is present-day Palestinian Jerusalem.

[Samie]

And no Samie, I refuse to debate you about Revelation 19. It IS the Second Coming, and that is final. I will not debate it with you because the plain utterances of the text will not allow it. Period.