Should "Cohabitators" be allowed to be leaders in the church?

[Woody]

Now Now - let's not make fun of Reindeer.

[doug yowell]

Now Now - let's not make fun of Reindeer.

Sorry, I couldn't resist that one.

[Gordon1]

Hi Monty, it's only the conjecture that I question.

I know God approves of marriage, but can't see how He condones the modern practice. As a central aspect of His Law and doctrine, AND the very crux of His reconciling to mankind through the BrideGroom, the Bible pattern should be sufficient and clear for us to follow.

[Tom Wetmore]

"By the power invested in me by the state of ___________, I now pronounce you man & wife."

Why does the state, a very secular and today v. corrupt body, have any authority over an institution which God established before the fall of man? ...

Because the state, through its laws has established an extensive and interrelated system of benefits and responsibilities derived directly from the status of being married, such as familial relationships, property rights, rights of inheritance, civil rights, tax benefits, etc. It is not only for the two that are married, but for their children as well as the rest of society.

[Gerr]

Would a Will of the cohabitors be recognized by the state?

[Felix Florimon]

Would a Will of the cohabitors be recognized by the state?

Yes, only if it is documented on paper besides being properly signed by the individual/s involved and also signed and stamped by a notary public. It will finally be approved by the state as long as this will is not against any city, state or federal law.

FF

[Tom Wetmore]

Depends on what state and how it is written. But most typically, yes. (Gay partners have long recognized this as a means of resolving a few of the disadvantages of not being able to be legally married.)

The converse situation maybe not in some states. By that I mean if a spouse attempts to completely disinherit the other legally married spouse, it may not always be upheld. Wills are very difficult to challenge, but a spouse may be able to successfully challenge such a will in some states and be entitled to at least a portion of the estate.

What would be more difficult would be if there is no will. The laws of inheritance that dictate the order of inheritance without a will most often would not recognize a cohabitor as having any rights to the property of the deceased. It is only legally defined family relationships that will inherit with a legal spouse and/or their children being primary heirs.

[philo]

Let me state my belief and conviction : Gen 2.; Mal. 2 : 16; Matth. 19 : 4 -8.But we have no Biblical command or rule for correctly and legally entering into this lifelong companionship during the tmes and environments, only some hints - Gen 24 : 67; Song of Solomon 8 : 2. How do you zthink early Roman citizens as Christians begun their marriage in Asia minor, necessarily (see Pliny the Younger) avoiding contacts with the state authorities ? How would Philemon proceed, seeing that Onesimus and Catia showed some sympathies for each other : For slaves it was not possible to enter in any contracts.

A true story : She, a faithful SDA church member since ages, now a widdow, wheelchair - bound, had faithfully and busily contibuted her part to the family and to the nation economy, helping him in his workshop besides housekeeping. Legally decades ago she could not be his employee, obtaining social security only from his account and after his death getting a "Versorgungsrente" (both terms are justb derogatory in a shameful degree I cannot translate).

An elderly gentleman, widower, helped her, took care of her, guided her to the Sabbath services,finally they joined in living together. Then his desire (!) was to get baptized into this amazing group of believers - boiiiing !! Cohabitation !!! Marry regularily, repent, then we will see !!! - -They simply could not, for then her alms would cease, since she now has an other one providing for her - and his regular retirement income simply was not enough for two.

The saturated, good double income, no wheelchair, but two cars, at once exposed their standards of "holiness".

Fine.

(We have other similiar cases during the last decades here.)

[doug yowell]

That's good information,Tom.

[doug yowell]

An elderly gentleman, widower, helped her, took care of her, guided her to the Sabbath services,finally they joined in living together. Then his desire (!) was to get baptized into this amazing group of believers - boiiiing !! Cohabitation !!! Marry regularily, repent, then we will see !!! - -They simply could not,

[Felix Florimon]

An elderly gentleman, widower, helped her, took care of her, guided her to the Sabbath services,finally they joined in living together. Then his desire (!) was to get baptized into this amazing group of believers - boiiiing !! Cohabitation !!! Marry regularily, repent, then we will see !!! - -They simply could not, for then her alms would cease, since she now has an other one providing for her - and his regular retirement income simply was not enough for two. The saturated, good double income, no wheelchair, but two cars, at once exposed their standards of "holiness".

We go to church in order to learn how to be good followers of Jesus Christ and also being a help to others into becoming Jesus’ followers. The standards of marriage within Christianity was defined by Jesus and later worked on by the Apostles Paul and Peter. Such standard of marriage was based on a definition that a man and a woman would become one flesh. Now, if one is one flesh with the other person one should not be trying to deny such kind of union to other people. If any of them try to do so they don’t belong to each other. This is what Jesus told the Samaritan lady. We are always going to find out material inconveniences when try to follow Jesus’ teachings. However, the spiritual power of the church is destroyed when we try to ignore Jesus’ teachings in order to be able to buy more temporary items. This is why we will always need prayer. The church has a healthy growth when we acquire more and more members that learn to have God changing things in their lives through the power of prayer.

The church is destroyed when the standards of marriage set by Jesus and His early followers are thrown down in order to please the best judgment of people who have very little interest of changing things around by having a close relationship with our Heavenly Father through Jesus Christ and His Holy Spirit.

FF

[doug yowell]

This is what Jesus told the Samaritan lady.

"...and the one whom you now have is NOT your husband;in this you have spoken truly." From God's mouth to our ears.

[doug yowell]

[olger]

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

So God doesn't require a public marriage commitment if it hurts a couple financially? And He looks the other way when they engage in those things marrieds do because it's really all about the money?

Do we need a public ceremony to be married in the sight of God? Can't committed couples just exchange vows before God and be recognized by heaven as married?

NO THEY CAN NOT. YOU CAN NOT MARRY YOURSELF ANY MORE THAN YOU CAN BAPTIZE YOURSELF.

g

[olger]

Originally Posted By: RLH

I was disfellowshipped once for cohabitating. That was when I was younger, and I've since seen the error of my ways.

That is what needs to happen if they are not willing to repent and stop co-habitating. The whole purpose in disfellowshipping someone is to lead them back to Christ and that happens a lot more often than many realize. I personally know three people that have been disfellowshipped and later returned to the church.

[Gerr]

NO THEY CAN NOT. YOU CAN NOT MARRY YOURSELF ANY MORE THAN YOU CAN BAPTIZE YOURSELF.

g

ESV Rom 4:9 we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. ‎10 How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. ‎11 He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised.

[Gordon1]

YOU CAN NOT MARRY YOURSELF ANY MORE THAN YOU CAN BAPTIZE YOURSELF.

Interesting question. Why may a man not take a woman to be his lawfully-wedded wife? According to Scripture?

Out of ~30 weddings of all stripes & colors, most I've attended have that fake ring mentioned by LynnDel. Not real gold.

Who wants that?

[doug yowell]

ESV Rom 4:9 we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. ‎10 How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. ‎11 He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised.

But he did receive the sign.And he didn't say,"I got faith, don't need no useless sign."

[Gordon1]

Out of ~30 weddings of all stripes & colors, most I've attended have that fake ring mentioned by LynnDel. Not real gold.

And now I get google ads for diamond rings.

[Overaged]

What do you think?

I cohabitate with my wife...

[OzarkWoman]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Do we need a public ceremony to be married in the sight of God? Can't committed couples just exchange vows before God and be recognized by heaven as married?

NO THEY CAN NOT. YOU CAN NOT MARRY YOURSELF ANY MORE THAN YOU CAN BAPTIZE YOURSELF.

g

Please show me where in the scriptures that it states that one must be married by the state or the government.

[phkrause]

Please show me where in the scriptures that it states that one must be married by the state or the government.

I agree that you will not find it. But as was mentioned by someone, in today's world without that little piece of paper you will have no legal rights, should your spouse die, to there money, etc. I will let those that know the law better than I, to either verify how true that is.

[Gordon1]

I agree that you will not find it. But as was mentioned by someone, in today's world without that little piece of paper you will have no legal rights, should your spouse die, to there money, etc. I will let those that know the law better than I, to either verify how true that is.

What you say could be true in certain circumstances or certain jurisdictions. But if one is married or in a common law union, or single, one should still be sure of the law, for themselves, their children and other family. Unless one doesn't care about their estate, their family or their place in society.

Many people assume that because they've followed normal procedure, their estate and succession will be 'normal'. But they never verify what 'that' will mean for their situation.

Most law codes are available on the internet.

For example, in Québec, there is a Civil Code governing all civil (non-penal, non-criminal) matters. There are three different marriage regimes recognized by the province (pop. 8 million). (Common law unions are not recognized.)

And there are three different types of will too, unrelated.

One is a holographic will - handwritten on paper and signed by the testator. No mechanical printing allowed, no witness required. One farmer was pinned beneath his tractor and scribed his holographic will on the fender before he died. His will was accepted by the court.

But each jurisdiction has their own code.

[phkrause]

Thanks for the info Gordon. I would also add, that Jesus has told us that we should always obey the law, unless it conflicts with his Law or principles. In other words the Sabbath, etc.

[Dr. Shane]

Originally Posted By: Windsor

Wow. Are you suggesting it is OK to cheat her husband out of half his paycheck every month?

In this case I was describing, it was the husband that cheated on her.

That makes no difference. Alimony is paid to support the woman until another man decides to take the job. If the new man is man enough to lay down and have sexual intercourse with the woman he needs to be man enough to go out and get a job and bring a paycheck home to a woman. What kind of man is going to shack up with a woman and live off from her ex-husband?