What causes the shaking?

[Robert]

I saw that the testimony of the True Witness has not been half heeded. The solemn testimony upon which the destiny of the Church hangs, has been lightly esteemed, if not entirely disregarded. This testimony must work deep repentance, and all that truly receive it, will obey it, and be purified. {RH, December 31, 1857 par. 6}

Repentance from what? Clearly self-righteousness.

[Gibs]

Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

None no not one is self righteous and I know of none who believe so.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

Ac 2:38

Earth to Gibs....What's the context? Acts? No, Rev chapter 3.

[Gustave]

Gustave,

There are independent ministries for just about every issue in Adventism - not just the Trinity. There are those that think ClubAdventist and Adventist frontier Missions are independent ministries. All of the "rebel" independent ministries (I don't include C/A or AFM as rebels) have one thing in common - they are all rebelling against man-made institurional denominationalism. problem is, most of them are setting up thier own man-made denominationalism, deteating thier own purpose for existence. The people of God seeking intimate relationship with the Lord King Jesus - inside or outside of any denomination - is what will bring about the shaking. When people turn to the Lord God and his Spirit for direction instead of man-made traditions; and unite to the common purpose of seeking a relationship with God rather than "club" membership is when the foundations of man-made denominationalism will be shaken to its core.

To God and God Alone be the Glory,

JoeMo

What is it specifically that SDA's claim is being ( or will in the future be ) shaken?

...Is it the corporate body of SDAism ( the actual church ).

...Or is it some type of independant view within the membership?

Also, how does the remnant factor into this? Do you believe that the remnant will leave....

...Or will it be all that remains?

[Robert]

The work which the church has failed to do in a time of peace and prosperity (restore and preach the gospel - i.e., the three angel's message), she will have to do in a terrible crisis, under most discouraging, forbidding, circumstances. The warnings that worldly conformity has silenced or withheld, must be given under the fiercest opposition from enemies of the faith. And at that time the superficial, conservative class, whose influence has steadily retarded the progress of the work, will renounce the faith, and take their stand with its avowed enemies (Romans Catholicism), toward whom their sympathies have long been tending. These apostates will then manifest the most bitter enmity, doing all in their power to oppress and malign their former brethren, and to excite indignation against them. This day is just before us.

[Woody]

Fighting Legalism is the Greatest Fight we now have.

[Gibs]

Well Woody my friend, you are going to have to fight an imaginary battle I am afraid because it is practically non existant this day. There once was a day but it is forever over and gone. You had many a Hell Fire preacher then that well he scared the hell right out of them that they could be saved.

Now you see sin is tolerated and something God winks at and counts all righteous in Jesus Christ no questions asked and it it will be the few that don't get in the kingdom. None you see are to overcome sin as that God has found out man cannot do so He saves them in their sin now. He didn't used to but He changed it in Jesus Christ. Much easier now than for the old patriots you know.

Well I don't buy that line of stuff and for sure I hope Woody don't either.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gustave]

The work which the church has failed to do in a time of peace and prosperity (restore and preach the gospel - i.e., the three angel's message), she will have to do in a terrible crisis, under most discouraging, forbidding, circumstances. The warnings that worldly conformity has silenced or withheld, must be given under the fiercest opposition from enemies of the faith. And at that time the superficial, conservative class, whose influence has steadily retarded the progress of the work, will renounce the faith, and take their stand with its avowed enemies (Romans Catholicism), toward whom their sympathies have long been tending. These apostates will then manifest the most bitter enmity, doing all in their power to oppress and malign their former brethren, and to excite indignation against them. This day is just before us.

According to this understanding a plausible scenario could be ( but not limited to )...

...Individual SDA Churches becoming " ordinariate " under the Bishop of Rome.

...Or do you believe that the General Conference itself could become an ordinariate.

...And some individual SDA churches would opt out of that?

[Woody]

Quote:

He saves them in their sin now

Gibs - He always has.

[Gibs]

EGW and I and the Word do not agree with you I'm sure!

"Do not these who claim sanctification while violating the commands of God, become a false and fatal sign to the world? Do they not say to the sinner, "It shall be well with thee"? The Lord has defined sin as the transgression of his law, but they say they are saved in sin, and thus make Christ the minister of sin. These professed Christians are doing the very work that Satan did in Paradise, they are leading souls astray by precept and example. They say to the sinner, to the transgressor, It shall be well with thee; you will rise to a higher, holier state by violating the law of God. The lesson that is heard throughout the land is, "Disobey and live." But how different is this teaching from the lessons of Christ. He declared: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets; I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven; but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." {ST, April 28, 1890 par. 5}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Woody]

Not sure what you think that proves Gibs. But if you are so chubby with EGW - why don't you attend church?

[Robert]

Romans 3:28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

[Gibs]

I don't really know any Christian Robert who don't hold to that. Any works is the result of faith and Love. A Christian loves to please His Lord.

1Jo 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[JoeMo]

Gustave,

I'm sorry I got all Adventist on you - I assumed you were one (poor assumption). While talking so much about the shaking seems to be pretty much exclusively Adventist in Christianity, the Bible has several prophecies about it. I won't bore you by quoting them, but just for reference, see Ezek.31:15-17; Joel 3:16; Haggai 2:6-7; and Matt. 4:29, for example. Basically, it means that God's Spirit will move powerfully among His people, and those that do not accept it will be "shaken" apart from those who don't. It's kind of like saying "I'm all shook up" when you are shocked or upset. It's hard to say who "leaves" and who 'remains"; but they do separate.

Please don't confuse this separation with the rapture. Most SDA's do not believe in the rapture.

BTW I don't know if it was purposeful or not, but when I saw the word "SDAism" in your post, i saw "Sadism"; and had to look twice. made me smile. Some other words people use for types of Adventists - there are Sadventists, Badventists, Gladventists, and Madventists. You have probably seen them all here.

Take care,

JoeMo

[Gustave]

Gustave,

I'm sorry I got all Adventist on you - I assumed you were one (poor assumption).

[Robert]

I don't really know any Christian Robert who don't hold to that. Any works is the result of faith and Love. A Christian loves to please His Lord.

But you insist we have to be perfect in that result....If we do, that's salvation by works.

[JoeMo]

Gustave,

Originally Posted By: JoeMo

"Basically, it means that God's Spirit will move powerfully among His people, and those that do not accept it will be "shaken" apart from those who don't."

Originally Posted By: Gustave

Wouldn't that equate to no need of shaking....

...Perhaps you worded that wrong?

Yup; I worded it wrong. Thould have read "those that do not accept it will be "shaken" apart from those do."

I do not identify the remnant church as exclusively Adventists. Even though I'm a member, I'm not huge on denominationalism. I am huge on relationship. I think God is more interested in relationship than doctrine. Anyone who loves the Lord and wants to spend eternity with Him will probably be there - regardless of their denomination (or lack thereof). That includes people who recognize their need for what Christians call "grace", and seek a personal relationship with whoever it is that gives grace. They may not even yet know that His name is Jesus. Romans 1:19-20 says:

"Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead;"

That tells me that, even though no "missionary" has told them about a loving God, His existence is evident in nature.

Gustave, I'm no missionary or theologian or anything. I just see a person who is asking sincere questions here; and deserves an answer. I'm not even saying I'm right - I'm just trying to answer some of your questions. No confrontation or religiosity is intended.

JoeMo

[Gibs]

Originally Posted By: Gibs

I don't really know any Christian Robert who don't hold to that. Any works is the result of faith and Love. A Christian loves to please His Lord.

But you insist we have to be perfect in that result....If we do, that's salvation by works.

Reaching the perfection He desires of us is the result of our Love for Him and His Divine Nature within. His Divine Nature will come in at full surrender and fully broken and crushed on Him making Him the only master of us. That is self destroyed, self to never rise up anymore in it's pride.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

Reaching the perfection He desires of us is the result of our Love for Him and His Divine Nature within.

So we are not saved by how perfect we become?

[Gibs]

In answer Robert, I like this statement from EGW,

"True sanctification means perfect love, perfect obedience, perfect conformity to the will of God. We are to be sanctified to God through obedience to the truth. Our conscience must be purged from dead works to serve the living God. We are not yet perfect; but it is our privilege to cut away from the entanglements of self and sin, and advance to perfection. Great possibilities, high and holy attainments, are placed within the reach of all." {AA 565.1}

He is building us day by day and we must cooperate in that building. We and He are working on a building, our soul temple.

Lu 1:37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.

How perfect must we become? I think He has told us as His Example we are to walk.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

We are not yet perfect; but it is our privilege to cut away from the entanglements of self and sin, and advance to perfection.

Our earthly life, however long, honored, or useful it may be, is but childhood, frail, imperfect, and undeveloped. Manhood, with its full, perfect, glorious development, will come, when, freed from the taint of sin, we stand among the redeemed throng. Then we shall enjoy a life which measures with the life of God, and through everlasting ages we shall go on increasing in wisdom and knowledge.

Perfection is when we are translated. End of story! Time to stop going on and on and on about something no one is doing. I for one am very tired of this nonsense....

[Woody]

Quote:

Perfection is when we are translated. End of story!

Exactly Rob. It's a shame when some here pick and choose what they want to believe from Ellen White. We need to look at her entire message not just cut and paste her to our own desires.

[Gibs]

Robert,

That glorious day will be for the overcomers you must know. EGW on this,

" He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Revelation 3:5. {LHU 326.1}

If we would be overcomers, we must search our hearts to be sure that we are not cherishing anything that is offensive to God. If we are, we cannot wear the white raiment that is here promised. If we would stand before God in the white linen, which is the righteousness of the saints, we must now do the work of overcoming. {LHU 326.2}

Whether being an overcomer is perfection or not is for you to decide. But for me He only expects of me perfection in this our sphere as He was in Christ as one of us.

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Really He has made the way so easy none need fail of the goal of being an overcomer.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Woody]

Quote:

Really He has made the way so easy none need fail of the goal of being an overcomer.

Please Please Tell us what has happened in your life. What have you overcome and how did it get accompished. Tell us how "easy" it was. And give God the glory deserved to him.

Do not be ashamed to proclaim what God has done.

Waiting ....

[Robert]

But for me He only expects of me perfection in this our sphere....

Watered down perfection is no perfection at all. It's either all or nothing. No credit....

Complete obedience is the only condition that meets the requirement of the law. “God is not a man, that He should lie.” God’s law is the rule of His government. He says, “This do, and thou shalt live.” But to the disobedient He says, “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.”