Romans 7:22-8:4

[Robert]

Romans 7:22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin. 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man and so he condemned sin in sinful man, 4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

[Robert]

Notice that the man of Romans 7, who is a believer, is meeting with defeat. He loves God's law according to the inward man, but in his walk he is failing.

The question is, is there any condemnation for the believer who has accepted his position in Christ & who loves the principle of God's agape, but is failing to live above his sin nature?

What does verse 8 state?

"There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus", period!

Now why?

[Robert]

"There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus", period!

Now why?

Answer: Verse 2 because in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death...

Notice "in Christ" (not in you) Christ set you free from two things:

1] Indwelling sin - the sin nature

and

2] death - i.e., the 2nd death - the curse of the law.

Why don't these two things apply to you as an individual?

a] You still retain a sin nature and

b] You are still technically a sinner and under the curse.

Only "in Christ" (through faith) are you free from 1 & 2. Hence there's no condemnation of you, not because of what God does in you, but because of your position "in Christ"!

Failure to accept this always leads down the path of self-righteousness & legalism! Always!

[Robert]

Romans 8:4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

So you can't experience the righteousness in the law if you have rejected the context leading up to Romans 8:4. Instead what you'll experience is the flesh trying to act holy, which is self-righteousness.

[Gibs]

Ro 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

In the flesh Paul is telling us brings forth fruit unto death.

Then Paul rolls us the answer,

Ro 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Ro 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Ro 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

We must die the death of #1 and to have Christ's indwelling Spirit and then victory can be realized!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

Ro 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

In the flesh Paul is telling us brings forth fruit unto death.

Then Paul rolls us the answer,

Ro 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

That's being dishonest. I mean you left out a huge portion, why? Because it doesn't fit your theology? That's taking Paul out of context.

[Robert]

So you can't experience the righteousness in the law if you have rejected the context leading up to Romans 8:4.

Let's look at this in more detail:

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. (Why?) 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

Again, this can't be what's true of believers individually, but rather what's true of our humanity in Christ Jesus.

"In Christ" I have a glorified humanity. The old life from Adam died the 2nd death. In my new humanity there's no indwelling sin.

Go to Eph 2:5 "Even when we were dead in our transgressions, (God) made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved ), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus....

When you were lost..when you were a sinner, hating God, He put you in Christ (at the incarnation) and by God's grace He saved you "in Christ".

At the cross God "condemned sin in the flesh". Our humanity, that was in Christ, died the 2nd death.

In the resurrection God raised Christ with a glorified, sinless humanity. His humanity is ours. We received this humanity at the 2nd coming, but for now God sees us as we are "in Christ Jesus".

More proof? Okay:

Col 1:13 For He (god) rescued us from the domain of darkness (this world under Satan), and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

So again, "in Christ" there's no condemnation, even though I am failing to live Christ's life.

The only solution is to rest in His finished work accomplished by the doing & dying of Christ. Only then can we hope to experience genuine agape....

[Robert]

Robert, Take into account the difference betweeen walking after the flesh or walking after the Spirit.

Ro 8:1 ¶ There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

That is the crux of the whole matter, the one who walks after the Spirit, Christ in you, the Law is in his heart and he is freed from sinning and death.....

Good, I'm glad you quoted the addition to Romans 8:1, "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

The most reliable manuscripts do not have that second part. If Paul put that statement there in verse 1, he would be contradicting his own theology. Because he would be saying that we are justified because we are doing something, we are walking in the Spirit.

[Robert]

But now for you most glaring contradiction: "the one who walks after the Spirit...is freed from sinning and death."

Let me quote Paul because you have been dishonest with his writings:

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

Where was the Holy Spirit (the law of the Spirit of Life) working? "In Christ"! Please be honest. It doesn't say in you.....

But, let's say it does...now what?

Let's say you are free from

1] "the law of sin"

2] and "death"

What is "the law of sin"?

Romans 7:17 ...it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells....

What's Paul writing about? His sinful nature.

Now go to Romans 7:22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

The law of sin is your sinful nature...It's called indwelling sin. It's our bent-to-self.

We are not free of our natures until Christ comes. What you are teaching, by taking Paul out of context, is the holy flesh heresy.

Also, are you free from death? Yes, the 2nd death if you remain in Christ by faith, but all men die the first death.

So neither of these are true as it pertains to you the individual. But you've been dishonest here and stated you are free of sin and death. This is terrible. You need to repent of such nonsense.

[Gibs]

Robert if you preach Paul did not preach overcoming you need to read his writings again.

Try just these two,

Ro 6:1 ¶ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Ro 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

No need of it, John echos it also,

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

We are not free of our natures until Christ comes. What you are teaching, by taking Paul out of context, is the holy flesh heresy.

The teaching given in regard to what is termed "holy flesh" is an error. All may now obtain holy hearts (minds), but it is not correct to claim in this life to have holy flesh [a glorified, immortal, sinless humanity]. The apostle Paul declares, "I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing" (Rom. 7:18).

When human beings receive holy flesh, they will not remain on the earth, but will be taken to heaven. While sin is forgiven in this life, its results are not now wholly removed. It is at His coming that Christ is to "change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body"(Phil. 3:21). . . .[2SM 32, 33]

[Robert]

Robert if you preach Paul did not preach overcoming you need to read his writings again.

Try just these two,

Ro 6:1 ¶ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Ro 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

No need of it, John echos it also,

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

One, you are out of context. Two, this is not dealing with the subject, Romans 7:22-8:4. Why can't you stay to the subject?

[Robert]

the subject, Romans 7:22-8:4. Why can't you stay to the subject?

Romans 7:22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin. 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man and so he condemned sin in sinful man, 4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

[Gibs]

OK, but did you notice Paul spells out the how in verses 3 and 4,

The key word is "WALK".

Ro 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Ro 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

It is the walk we choose to take, either of ourself in our understanding of the flesh or we Make Him the Master and He takes over the soul temple.

Then our walk is after Him, His Spirit, Divine Nature in us. Yes it is a "WALK".

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

OK, but did you notice Paul spells out the how in verses 3 and 4

Again, you are quoting only what you want. Why is there no condemnation? Is it based on what Christ is doing in me or is it based on what Christ did in my humanity? The answer is the latter....

So until you rest in that truth the fruit you bear will be your own; not the Spirit. Do you understand?

[Robert]

What's the gospel?

Romans 3:21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law (apart from your law performance), has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

[Gibs]

Then Paul ends the chapter,

Ro 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

The Law is in the heart of he who has Christ's righteousness. Ps 40:8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.

If then you go against what is in your heart and the law revives to condemn you to schoolmaster you back.

Paul says the commandment came and I died, without the law I was alive, yes until he went against what was in his heart. Ro 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Ro 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Ro 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

How many have crucified the old man of sin, not many is the answer, it is fought like a tiger to retain him.

When it is done is when headway with Christ can begin!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

Then Paul ends the chapter,

Ro 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Gibbs...I've already commented on this. Where were you?

Here's Rom 3:31 (Young's literal translation)

Law then do we make useless through the faith? let it not be! yea, we do establish law.

What's the context and subject of Romans chapter 3? Justification by faith. Paul clearly tells us it's a righteousness from God, apart from law - i.e., apart from anything we contribute.

So after all that you think Paul is going to contradict himself? Please.

Okay, back to Rom 3:31. "The faith" refers to Christ. Does the doctrine of justification by faith make the law void. No, Christ, by His doing & dying, established the law. You, my deceived friend, do not establish the law.

Do you even know what that phrase means?

[Robert]

"established the law"

Do you even know what that phrase means?

Let me ask you a question. If you stand before the judgment seat of God today, and the law says to you, “Have you obeyed me?” What are you going to say?

“Well, we have been taught that the law no longer applies.”

And God will say, “Who told you that?”

“Well, some theologian with a Ph.D.”

And God will say, “Since when was he your Saviour?”

The Bible is the measuring stick of truth. And the Bible says [Heb. 9:22]:

In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

On the cross, Jesus met the justice of the law. And, by His life, He met the positive demands of the law. And when I stand before the judgment seat of God, and the law of God says to me, “Have you obeyed me?” I will not say to the law, “Well, I did my best.”

The law says, “I did not ask that question.”

“Well, I kept most of the law.”

The law will say, “I did not ask you that question either. Have you obeyed me in every detail?”

“Well, I goofed up a few times.”

And the law says, “I’m sorry, you must die. Once is enough.”

But I thank God I will not answer the law that way. I will say, “Yes, I have obeyed you perfectly.”

The law will say, “When did you obey me perfectly?”

“When I was in Christ. Then I had perfect obedience.”

But the law will say, “You’re a sinner, you must die.”

And I will say to the law, “Well I have bad news for you, I have already died.”

The law will say, “When did you die?”

I will quote to the law Galatians 2:20:

I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live....

The law will say, “Well, if that’s your position, then you are free to live.”

And I will say to the law, “Thank you.”

Because, in Christ, the law has been established on behalf of you and me. That is what verse 31 says. God doesn’t bypass His law to justify us. God holds His integrity to His law when He justifies me through His Son Jesus Christ. Because, in His Son’s holy history, God has met every demand of the law for you and for me. That is the “good news” of the Gospel.

[Gibs]

Robert,

I find Paul rounds it up fine in these verses,

Ro 6:1 ¶ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Ro 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Ro 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

If one is continuing in sin and he hasn't yet grieved away the Holy Spirit he better get real very quickly and get the answer to remedy the problem as he has a big one.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

Robert,

I find Paul rounds it up fine in these verses

That's fine, but you also must read the rest of Paul to get a better pic. If not you end up into a subtle form of legalism, which you have....

[Gibs]

I think you will find Paul had put sin out of his camp.

And then his admonition to us,

Ro 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Ro 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

He is master of us of whom we obey!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[M. T. Cross]

For some reason the Bugs Bunny and Tweety Show theme song is running through my head after reading this.

[Robert]

Here's the subject: Romans 7:22-8:4

There's no condemnation to the one who is struggling against sin and losing.....

[Robert]

Intermission time:

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