Romans 7:22-8:4

[Gibs]

The right Balance is needed, A quote of EGW,

Not Saved by Law Nor in Disobedience

While we are to be in harmony with God's law, we are not saved by the works of the law, yet we cannot be saved without obedience. The law is the standard by which character is measured. But we cannot possibly keep the commandments of God without the regenerating grace of Christ. Jesus alone can cleanse us from all sin. He does not save us by law, neither will He save us in disobedience to law. {FW 95.3}

Our love to Christ will be in proportion to the depth of our conviction of sin, and by the law is the knowledge of sin. But as we see ourselves, let us look away to Jesus, who gave Himself for us that He might redeem us from all iniquity. By faith take hold of the merits of Christ, and the soul-cleansing blood will be applied. The more clearly we see the evils and perils to which we have been exposed, the more grateful shall we be for deliverance through Christ. The gospel of Christ does not give men license to break the law, for it was through transgression that the floodgates of woe were opened upon our world. {FW 96.1}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

While we are to be in harmony with God's law, we are not saved by the works of the law, yet we cannot be saved without obedience. The law is the standard by which character is measured.

That's a contradiction...a dance if you will. The law doesn't give out credit (neither does Christ). We are in full compliance with the law or we are not. Hence, we had to be delivered from under the law.

[Gibs]

Well Robert it is the love of God in us that we do the requirments of the law, not to be saved by that but from our love being as His. This is where and how our obedience is to come and must. It is pleasing for us to do so and also pleasing to Him.

And yes, the Law is the standard by which character is measured. I would say EGW did no contradiction or dance around in her statement at all.

Her statements on this are by far above any other of men that I have ever read. Why? Because it is plain to me she spoke by the Spirit of God being in her.

It is very apparant His Spirit dwelt in her. The precious thing is it can dwell also in each and every one of us the same. Not in the same duty she was sent to do, teach the Minutiae of life she once stated. But to give us wisdom and understanding and strength we of our selves do not have.

He does not leave us alone in the battle of getting the victory over evil and sin in our lives, He will come and dwell within and then we have all power to do His will.

We have it when we have faith that it is true!

He is our strength and stay and impervious covering. He is ALL things to us.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[cheddar]

And yes, the Law is the standard by which character is measured. I would say EGW did no contradiction or dance around in her statement at all.

Her statements on this are by far above any other of men that I have ever read. Why? Because it is plain to me she spoke by the Spirit of God being in her.

It's funny that Ellen White was very vocal and public about her endorsement of Jones and Waggoners version of the gospel(which they got from Paul) but I don't remember them ever endorsing her version.

They knew she was very legalistic in her understanding even after 1888 but I guess they were afraid or had too much respect to say anything publicly. I unfortunately don't have that respect.

People want to hold up 'Steps to Christ' like it's some great book. That wasn't a great book, it reads like a catechism. There's only one step and that's faith - everything else is fluff.

[Woody]

Quote:

There's only one step and that's faith - everything else is fluff.

That's the point. Our human natures just LOVE fluff. We want to believe there has to be SO much that we must do. Simple faith is just to difficult for our minds because it dimishes what WE must do.

[Gibs]

Well from my perspective from what I read, EGW, Jones, Wagonner and all the Apostles all taught salvation the same. If one is a legalist then all are the same.

What we are seeing is far more rampant than legalism has ever become since the beginning of Christianity. Why? Because men never have to a great percentage ever could swallow down the severity of legalism. There was an era of "hell fire" preaching for sure.

But now preach unto me smooth things and guess what, the people love it. Paul predicted that time would come.

2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

This is practically the total of all preaching today in Christianity today and I do not care where you go, the true way is as scarce as "hens teeth".

Men want to be saved while still willfully running on in sin. They want it that we no longer have that old cursed law. The curse of that law is that to sin is death. And that has not been taken away.

We can become righteous in Jesus Christ and by Him only. He become the curse of the law for us when we appropriate His merits. Only Christ can cover your sin by comming to him in true repentance.

"But the history of David furnishes no countenance to sin. It was when he was walking in the counsel of God that he was called a man after God's own heart. When he sinned, this ceased to be true of him until by repentance he had returned to the Lord". . . . {CC 180.3}

Surely all of us today can see this of what she states here.

" All the warnings of Christ regarding the events that will occur near the close of this earth's history are now being fulfilled in our large cities. God is permitting these things to be brought to light that he who runs may read. The city of San Francisco is a sample of what the whole world is becoming. The wicked bribery, the misappropriation of means, the fraudulent transactions among men who have power to release the guilty and condemn the innocent--all this iniquity is filling other large cities of the earth and is making the world as it was in the days that were before the Flood.'--Letter 230, 1907. {LDE 115.3}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[cheddar]

You’re the one who teaches saved in sin with your ‘we can do it’ gospel. That’s nothing but performance and it gives victory over nothing. The strong-willed end up becoming legalistic and weak-willed get discouraged and go into some other craziness.

There were thousands of Jews who wanted to stone Paul not because he was strong on the Law but because he taught a gospel without the Law. If he had preached the Law they would have loved him. Paul, Martin Luther and Jones and Waggoner all spoke of the Law in negative way. Ellen White was the only one who spoke of the ten commandments in a positive way.

The Holy Spirit is the one who convicts us of sin. I don’t need two tablets of stone to tell me right from wrong. For the first two thousand years of this world’s history there was no Law. How did those people know right from wrong? The same way we know today. God speaks to all of us thru our conscience and unfortunately the majority violate it on a daily basis.

You teach the same message that the Judaizers did in Paul’s day and he said let those people be anathema (bound under a great curse).

[Robert]

Well Robert it is the love of God in us that we do the requirments of the law, not to be saved....

And if, like the man of Romans 7, I am not "keeping the requirements", then what? Let me guess? I'm not saved.

I've heard SDA say "we don't keep the law to be saved, we keep the law because we are saved." But I beg to differ with them. I doubt if they are living Christ's life.

[Gibs]

Jesus gave the law and it was in Adams heart and passed down through his posterity and they lived long so not much got corrupted you can know in just 2,000 yrs..

Mt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Mt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Ro 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law

And He will put them on display again,

Re 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gibs]

Well gee Robert, one thing about it is we are not the judge of who is saved and I am glad of that, but one thing I won't do is advocate in any way that one can continue in sin. That is a precarious path to walk in.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

Well gee Robert,

"Gee" - contraction of "Jesus Christ".

Basically you said "Well, Jesus Christ, Robert...."

That's taking the name of the Lord in vain. You break one, you break them all.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Gibs

Well gee Robert,

"Gee" - contraction of "Jesus Christ".

Basically you said "Well, Jesus Christ, Robert...."

That's taking the name of the Lord in vain. You break one, you break them all.

There goes perfection out the window.

[Gibs]

Gee whizz or heavens sake or whatever I was only coming back to Robert trying not to be too adrupt and was not taking Jesus name in vain. I did not use His name you nit pickers you. I suppose when you are guiding a hoss and you say "Gee" to him to turn you are cursing, well go bury the hatchet.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gibs]

I worked horses a lot in my young yrs and when you hollerd "gee" to them they would turn right and if you hollerd "haw" they would turn left. We logged timber with them and farmed with them. I wasn't saying gee hoss but gee Robert and that means turn to the right and I think that is a good admonition for anyone and myself included.

Let us all turn to the right, Jesus Christ and the way He has set up that we may be saved. He said few would find it so it must be gotten right or one will miss the way!

His Way is not hard or galling but men want to be saved and not be changed from the life they are living and have set up that one can be saved in sin and that is a no go for sure.

Here is a tough one from the pen of inspiration, do please read this one, it's a big paragraph but hang in there.

"Is not the story of the fall repeated by thousands of lips today, and even from the pulpit do we not hear the words of the tempter, "Thou shalt not surely die"? Is not the law of God represented as a yoke of bondage which men are free to violate as they choose? Satan insinuated to Adam and Eve that they might reach a higher, happier state by violation of the divine command, and today the same falsehood is spread through the world, even by those who claim to be sanctified. Do not these who claim sanctification while violating the commands of God, become a false and fatal sign to the world? Do they not say to the sinner, "It shall be well with thee"? The Lord has defined sin as the transgression of his law, but they say they are saved in sin, and thus make Christ the minister of sin. These professed Christians are doing the very work that Satan did in Paradise, they are leading souls astray by precept and example. They say to the sinner, to the transgressor, It shall be well with thee; you will rise to a higher, holier state by violating the law of God. The lesson that is heard throughout the land is, "Disobey and live." But how different is this teaching from the lessons of Christ. He declared: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets; I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven; but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." {ST, April 28, 1890 par. 5}

No way can we hate the Law if we Love God, it is the transcript of His Character and we need to have it as our transcript also.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

Gee whizz or heavens sake or whatever I was only coming back to Robert trying not to be too adrupt and was not taking Jesus name in vain. I did not use His name you nit pickers you.

Now you are justifying your sin, which makes it twice as bad. Why? That's being self-righteous. Face it, we sin daily....Even our thoughts.

Yes, we grow, but perfection? Who are you kidding? Not God!

[cheddar]

No way can we hate the Law if we Love God, it is the transcript of His Character and we need to have it as our transcript also.

Yes 'agape' is the trascript of God's character, thank you for pointing that out.

The 10c's could never be the transcript of his character. How many times did God kill in the OT? (many times - too numerous to count). How many times did he wink at adultery? - (polygamy?, again too numerous to count).

Agape can handle the grey areas of life where rigid commandments cannot. You like the children of Israel love to keep your own promises but reject the promises of God.

Exodus 34 is the true picture of God's character.

[Robert]

Is not the law of God represented as a yoke of bondage which men are free to violate as they choose?

Oh stop it....You are ridiculous! No one said let's enjoy sin. That's your legalistic mindset. You are so transfixed on the law that you eclipse Christ. I'm saying that you aren't measuring up to Christ's life - a life that answered every detail of the law.....Comprehend???

[Gibs]

The 10 commandments or the Rogal law definitly is the transcript of Gods Character in short. He is Love, It is the Law of Love, First love to God with all our hearts and souls, that is the first four. Then Love to our fellow man as to ourselves, that is the last 6.

God in the old testament killed in righteousness and all knees will bow one day and confess that. He is the optimum of righteousness. No fault whatever can be found in Him.

If you find I am transfixed on the law Robert tell me what you think about Jesus in this statement,

Mt 5:17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Mt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Mt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

You see by His own Word it is very dire to teach any to break in the least any of them.

Without any law there would not be any sin, neither would there any control and all would run wild unless all were made machines without a mind and freedom to do evil or to do right.

So someone has to determine the right and who would have that right? The Great Creator. I testify His Law is right and it is Love and all should live up to it.

" God requires more of His followers than many realize. If we would not build our hopes of heaven upon a false foundation we must accept the Bible as it reads and believe that the Lord means what He says. He requires nothing of us that He will not give us grace to perform. We shall have no excuse to offer in the day of God if we fail to reach the standard set before us in His word." {5T 171.1}

I really believe that our Lord is very tired of hearing excuses as to not being able to put away the shortcomings each are so apt to fall into. None have to continue to fall in them, He in us is all the power and more than is needed to go above them.

The "smooth" things being preached today is not the way by far and the sooner it is seen that it is false the more can come and be as He would have us to be.

Look, we know He has power to forgive sin, how can one imagine He don't have power when in you to overcome it in you as He did. It is a narrow way that few will find is granted. Why? Because of strong delusions and false preaching.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[cheddar]

God in the old testament killed in righteousness and all knees will bow one day and confess that. He is the optimum of righteousness. No fault whatever can be found in Him.

If God killed then he broke the Law. If he allowed adultery and stealing to take place (no matter the circumstances) then he disregarded the Law.

You don't seem to get that. Also law is not character it's a form of government. Law can influence character by resticting behavior but it's not the same thing.

People with agape in their heart are judged by God as law-abing citizens. People without agape are the children of Satan.

[Gibs]

Yes Cheddar God allows us to be obedient or disobedient. He made us free agents to choose either to obey or to disobey.

Salvation is for the obedient whether you or I or anyone likes it. However for me I must assure you, it must be that salvation be only for the obedient. Why?

Because He is not going to have this thing of sin and rebellion rise up again. All that will be in the Heavenly Kingdom will have choosen to be obedient and still do have the freedom to be disobedient. But it is settled in all the hearts of the redeemed that they will never ever be at odds or have any desire to differ or disobey in any way with our righteous God and Saviour.

You don't have agape love if you don't love the law of God as it is the law of Love, His love and must be our love if we are of Him.

This quote must be taken to heart by all who will be His, EGW, speaks,

"We have no hesitancy in telling you that in order to obtain the immortal inheritance and the eternal substance, you must be overcomers in this probationary life. Everything that blots and stains the soul must be removed, must be cleansed from the heart. We must know what it means to be a partaker of the divine nature, having escaped the corruptions that are in the world through lust. Are you willing to wage war against the lusts of the flesh? Are you ready to battle against the enemy of God and man? Satan is determined to enslave every soul if he can; for he is playing a desperate game to win the souls of men from Christ and eternal life. Will you permit him to steal from you the graces of the Spirit of God, and plant in you his own corrupt nature? or will you accept the great provision of salvation, and through the merits of the Infinite Sacrifice made in your behalf, become a partaker of the divine nature? God has given his only-begotten Son, that through his shame, suffering, and death, you might have glory, honor, and immortality. Are you not willing to lay hold on the gracious hope set before you in the gospel? Is it humiliating to seek to win a crown of immortal glory?" {ST, June 15, 1891 par. 4}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Q.E.D.]

If God killed then he broke the Law.

Huh?

Q.E.D.

[Q.E.D.]

If he allowed adultery and stealing to take place (no matter the circumstances) then he disregarded the Law.

Huh?

Q.E.D.

[cheddar]

It's a pretty simple concept. If the Law says 'Do not kill' and then someone kills they are judged as a law breaker. Jesus went even farther than this and said that if we have hatred for someone we are breaking the Law.

I personally feel that ‘agape’ which is self-sacrificing love is the real picture of what and who God is. God has never violated this. Even with all those questionable events in the OT he never violated agape. Agape can do things which the ten commandments cannot. This why the old covenant is referred to as flawed or faulty.

When Lucifer sinned in heaven he didn’t break the ten commandments he violated the principle of self-sacrificing love. He chose to exalt himself and worship himself instead of the creator. All sin is a violation of agape.

[Gibs]

1Jo 3:4 ¶ Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Agape Love does truly keep the law as it is in the heart of one who truly has His agape love.

This is Jesus's response, Joh 14:15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments. He is telling us If you have love for me, keep my commandments.

Then John tells us, ( and we know that to know Him is to love Him! )

1Jo 2:3 ¶ And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

The Rogal Law is the Law of Love!

"The law of love being the foundation of the government of God, the happiness of all intelligent beings depends upon their perfect accord with its great principles of righteousness. God desires from all His creatures the service of love--service that springs from an appreciation of His character. He takes no pleasure in a forced obedience; and to all He grants freedom of will, that they may render Him voluntary service." {PP 34.3}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

Rom 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.