Romans 7:22-8:4

[Robert]

Here's the subject: Romans 7:22-8:4

There's no condemnation to the one who is struggling against sin and losing.....

How do I know this?

Romans 7:22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.

I've been told that the man of Romans 7 is unconverted, but if you look up the phrase "the inward man" it always refers to a born again Christian:

Eph 3:14 For this cause, I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord, Jesus Christ, 15 from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named, 16 that he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, that you may be strengthened with power through his Spirit in the inward man; 17 that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith....

2 Cor 4:16 Therefore we don't faint, but though our outward man is decaying, yet our inward man is renewed day by day.

So that phrase, "inward man", always applies to the converted man

So the man of Romans 7 is a believer.

Verse 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind (my will), and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members...

So here's a converted man, who loves God's law in his converted mind, but he is failing when it comes to his walk.

Notice that the man of Romans 7 isn't condoning sin - rather he is missing the mark...he is falling short.

Is there any condemnation?

What does Romans 8:1 say?

Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. (CEB, NAS, NIV, ASV, BBE, ESV, GNT, CSB, LEB, NCV, NLT, NRS, RSV, DBY, TNIV)

[Woody]

Thanks for the intermission Rob. That was cool.

[Robert]

[Woody]

Here's the subject: Romans 7:22-8:4

There's no condemnation to the one who is struggling against sin and losing.....

AMEN

[M. T. Cross]

Intermission time:

View me

Thank you man, I'm glad you took my comment with the humour I intended it with.

[Robert]

One more tune...

[Woody]

One more tune...

Oh yes. And certainly a fav of mine.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Here's the subject: Romans 7:22-8:4

There's no condemnation to the one who is struggling against sin and losing.....

How do I know this?

Romans 7:22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.

I've been told that the man of Romans 7 is unconverted, but if you look up the phrase "the inward man" it always refers to a born again Christian:

Eph 3:14 For this cause, I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord, Jesus Christ, 15 from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named, 16 that he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, that you may be strengthened with power through his Spirit in the inward man; 17 that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith....

2 Cor 4:16 Therefore we don't faint, but though our outward man is decaying, yet our inward man is renewed day by day.

So that phrase, "inward man", always applies to the converted man

So the man of Romans 7 is a believer.

Verse 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind (my will), and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members...

So here's a converted man, who loves God's law in his converted mind, but he is failing when it comes to his walk.

Notice that the man of Romans 7 isn't condoning sin - rather he is missing the mark...he is falling short.

Is there any condemnation?

What does Romans 8:1 say?

Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. (CEB, NAS, NIV, ASV, BBE, ESV, GNT, CSB, LEB, NCV, NLT, NRS, RSV, DBY, TNIV)

Yes, Gibbs?

[JoeMo]

Rob - Awesome 'toons! How fun! I'd say "back to topic", but this is too much fun! :)

[Woody]

Best be careful - there are some legalists that would love to show the - sign.

[Gibs]

Well, quite an admiration society going on there, kinds expected.

Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Who then is the master? The proof is in the obey or disobey, "the pudding!"

Mr 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[LynnDel]

Robert, that is an interesting partial study on the phrase, "the inward man." However, though the phrase is used to describe the converted heart in the additional verses you quoted, that is only because of the context in which the phrase is used. The inward man is the conscience, or what the Bible describes as the heart, which is desperately wicked and in need of conversion. Thank God through our Lord Jesus Christ that He forgave us and lives in us, and we in Him!

LD

[Robert]

Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Gibbs...stop it! You are not sidetracking this post from its immediate context. If you wish to address Romans 6 then start another post.

It seems odd that you try to shift away from Romans 7-8. Is it because it goes against your theology?

[Robert]

The inward man is the conscience, or what the Bible describes as the heart, which is desperately wicked and in need of conversion.

Let's test your idea against Romans 7:22

For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Notice that you have three laws:

1] The law of God (according to the inward man)

2] The law of my mind

3] The law of sin

1a ] If a person delights in God's law I would have to say that his mind/heart is in harmony with the principle of God's law. That comes through conversion.

So "conscience"? I'm not sure....The law written in the heart, yes....Maybe it's apart of that...?

2a] The law of my mind is the "will power" - it wants to do right....

3a] The law of sin is the same as indwelling sin - what Paul terms "sin living in me". It too is a power or force, only it is opposite what the converted mind wants....

You can see this is verse 15:

For what I will (make my mind up) to do, that I do not do; but what I hate, that I do. ....it (what I hate to do) is no longer I (my mind) who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

What's the problem?

There's a fourth law found in Romans 8:2

"The law of the Spirit"

That's the power of divinity. In other words, just because you have been born again...just because you desire to do good...just because your heart has the law of God written in it - doesn't mean you are going to live Christ's life.

Why? The will power of the converted mind can't say no to the law of sin (our bent to self). It takes "the law of the Spirit" - what Paul calls "walking in the Spirit" to defeat "the law of sin" (our bent to self)

[Gibs]

Paul had made it clear that self must be killed, crucified and so self is not to rise up to be the Master of you, but Christ is.

1Jo 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1Jo 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Then back to Paul,

1Co 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Now John,

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

just because you have been born again...just because you desire to do good...just because your heart has the law of God written in it - doesn't mean you are going to live Christ's life.

Why? The will power of the converted mind can't say no to the law of sin (our bent to self). It takes "the law of the Spirit" - what Paul calls "walking in the Spirit" to defeat "the law of sin" (our bent to self)

Ellen White:

"You desire to give yourself to Him, but you are weak in moral power, in slavery to doubt, and controlled by the habits of your life of sin. Your promises and resolutions are like ropes of sand. You cannot control your thoughts, your impulses, your affections. The knowledge of your broken promises and forfeited pledges weakens your confidence in your own sincerity, and causes you to feel that God cannot accept you; but you need not despair."

Sounds like the man of Romans 7, huh? Notice, even though the above Christian is failing and feels like God cannot accept him, Ellen White says "you need not despair". In other words there is no condemnation to those who have accepted Christ by faith.

Let's read on:

What you need to understand is the true force of the will.

Remember, the problem is that the man of Romans 7 is trying to use his converted will power to say no to the law of sin (the sin nature). Well, you can't win....You will always lose....

...Everything depends on the right action of the will. ....You can give Him your will;

In other words you have to give up trying to use your will power and let God deal with the law of sin (the sin nature). That's harder than you might think, but if you learn to do it you can grow in grace. Who says that it's hard to give up trying and let God? Ellen White:

The warfare against self is the greatest battle that was ever fought. The yielding of self, surrendering all to the will of God, requires a struggle

Now, when you depend on "the law of the Spirit" instead of "the law of my mind" (the will power) you can make progress over "the law of sin".

He will then work in you to will and to do according to His good pleasure. Thus your whole nature will be brought under the control of the Spirit of Christ; your affections will be centered upon Him, your thoughts will be in harmony with Him.

That's Romans 8:4

He (God) condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Why "might"? Because it comes natural to try to do things ourselves.....That's why Ellen White said, "The yielding of self, .... requires a struggle." It means we can't do it and that we need to learn to yield up our own efforts and let God do the doing. That's why Jesus said, "without me you can't do anything"!

Because we struggle...because we fail...because we fall short, God doesn't condemn us. He loves us with an everlasting love. We are complete in Him.

[Robert]

"The yielding of self, .... requires a struggle." It means we can't do it and that we need to learn to yield up our own efforts and let God do the doing. That's why Jesus said, "without me you can't do anything"!

The parallel to Romans 7 & 8 is John 15:3

You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.

That's the same idea of Romans 8:1

"There's no condemnation to those who are in Christ"

4 Abide in Me, and I in you.....He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

That's Romans 8:4

[Gibs]

Robert, "Can't" never did anything and you need to start thinking "I Can" do all things in Christ who strengtheneth me.

Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Our man Paul stated that.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.

That's the imputed righteousness of Christ. That's our ticket to heaven. Why? Because we struggle against sin. Even if we have learned to walk in the Spirit with some sins, none of us has "resisted to the point of shedding blood in [our] striving against sin" (Heb 12:4]

Do you know what the cross meant to Christ? It meant goodbye to life forever...never to see His Father's face. That's the 2nd death. Yes, God revealed to Christ that He would be raised on the 3rd day, but when God abandoned Christ the hope of the resurrection forsook Him.

Do you know what Christ was tempted to do? (BTW, I doubt if you and I would have passed this terrible temptation):

The temptation was to, “Come down from the cross and save Himself". (That was our bent-to-self tempting His mind)

The problem is He could have done it....He could have, against His Father's will, supernaturally come down off the cross and blinked His enemies into oblivion. After all He was being done completely unjust.

[Robert]

Robert, "Can't" never did anything and you need to start thinking "I Can" do all things in Christ who strengtheneth me.

Yes, if you could walk perfectly in the Spirit then I suppose you could be perfect, but never to be saved.

See, that's my problem with you, Gibbs. You say unless we've fully overcome that Christ will not cover us with His righteousness.

Well, Romans 8:1 and John 15:3 tells me you are perverting this truth...and that your desire is to place us under a "yoke of bondage". In other words, for the struggling sinner, your theology offers only condemnation. No thanks....

[Robert]

Because we struggle...because we fail...because we fall short, God doesn't condemn us. He loves us with an everlasting love. We are complete in Him.

-BC- PK

-TI- Prophets and Kings

-CN- 47

-CT- Joshua and the Angel

-PR- 02

-PG- 588

The tempter stands by to accuse them, as he stood by to resist Joshua. He points to their filthy garments, their defective characters. He presents their weakness and folly, their sins of ingratitude, their unlikeness to Christ, which has dishonored their Redeemer. He endeavors to affright them with the thought that their case is hopeless, that the stain of their defilement will never be washed away. He hopes so to destroy their faith that they will yield to his temptations, and turn from their allegiance to God.

"Are these," he says, "the people who are to take my place in heaven, and the place of the angels who united with me? They profess to obey the law of God; but have they kept its precepts? Have they not been lovers of self more than lovers of God? Have they not placed their own interests above His service? Have they not loved the things of the world? Look at the sins that have marked their lives. Behold their selfishness, their malice, their hatred of one another. Will God banish me and my angels from His presence, and yet reward those who have been guilty of the same sins? Thou canst not do this, O Lord, in justice. Justice demands that sentence be pronounced against them."

But while the followers of Christ have sinned, they have not given themselves up to be controlled by the satanic agencies. They have repented of their sins and have sought the Lord in humility and contrition, and the divine Advocate pleads in their behalf. He who has been most abused by their ingratitude, who knows their sin and also their penitence, declares: “The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan. I gave My life for these souls. They are graven upon the palms of My hands (i.e., we are complete in Christ). They may have imperfections of character; they may have failed in their endeavors; but they have repented, and I have forgiven and accepted them.”

[Robert]

"lovers of self ...own interests.”

In other words these believers are not perfect....There's still self-love...there's still self-interests. Christ, on the other hand, "...thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself"....

[Gibs]

Jesus Christ alone determines who gets His robe of righteousness and the overcoming isn't done to earn it but is given because of the love in our hearts.

The word "believe" incorporates more than it normally does to most in our vernacular of today. The devils believe and tremble in that sense, but not unto salvation.

He who don't love the Lord hates His commandments and wants them hidden from him. If we truly Love Him it makes them part of us, our full will to do them is our satisfaction and joy.

The ones Robert living through the time of trouble right upon us will have overcome fully and will have no home and no means left and will be doomed by the law of the world to be killed. But the time is cut short for the elect's sake and Jesus catchs them up to Him in the air before the decree can be carried out.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

The word "believe" incorporates more than it normally does to most in our vernacular of today. The devils believe and tremble in that sense, but not unto salvation.

When a person believes in Christ it's because he/she needs Christ's righteousness. He/she needs to be delivered from under the curse of the law.

The devil, doesn't see his need. He doesn't need Christ's righteousness. His belief in God is an acknowledgement that God exists. This Lucifer knows....

[Gibs]

The curse of the Law is death for he that breaks it and by faith we can have Christ to take up that curse in our stead.

Christ satisfied the demands of the law in His human nature. He bore the curse of the law for the sinner, made an atonement for him, "that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Genuine faith appropriates the righteousness of Christ, and the sinner is made an overcomer with Christ; for he is made a partaker of the divine nature, and thus divinity and humanity are combined. {FW 93.3}

That kind of faith is truly believing. His Divinity with our humanity is what enables us to do His Will and overcome as He desires us to do.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.