Fashion police, look here!!!

[wicklunds]

Remember this quote as you survey the landscape in church next Sabbath...

There are many in the church who at heart belong to the world, but God calls upon those who claim to believe the advanced truth, to rise above the present attitude of the popular churches of today. Where is the self-denial, where is the cross-bearing that Christ has said should characterize his followers? The reason we have had so little influence upon unbelieving relatives and associates is that we have manifested little decided difference in our practices from those of the world. Parents need to awake, and purify their souls by practicing the truth in their home life. When we reach the standard that the Lord would have us reach, worldlings will regard Seventh-day Adventists as odd, singular, straight-laced extremists. "We are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men." {RH, January 9, 1894 par. 10}

[Neil D]

Wicklands,

You call upon the members of C/A to survey the church with this quote in mind. I call upon you to declare your "self-denial, where is the cross-bearing that Christ has said should characterize his followers" ?

And yeah, I admit to reversing the role here and put the onus on you. You see, I believe when we take this attitude that you declare we should have, we ruin any sort of possible relationship that God could plant with us. Does this attitude that you declare we should have, negate the counsel that EGW has given to us with your emphasis? I think not, however, that said, I would have to look at the context and circumstances surrounding this passage....And the truth of the matter is...I don't have time. I have bee to get ready for a nector run, I have a house that is 1/3 painted, I have some things to do to run for my wife, and you want me to have a critical attitude against the church? I am sorry, Wicklunds, but I just don't have time to be critical of the church, especially if they are as busy as I am....And I will not fault them for the work that the Lord has given to them. But I do find fault you with this attitude and spreading of an attitude that hurts people, and the recipient of this message...

So I have only one thing to say to you-

Shame on you...

[Bravus]

Fashionpolice is the nickname of a dear online friend of mine from another forum, an American woman living in Denmark and working as a librarian. Completely irrelevant to this thread, of course, but the topic made me wonder where I was for a moment!

Dennis, I agree, we're insufficiently weird and extremist.

[wicklunds]

awwwwww!! And yet I feel that more "shame" should be applied to our dress and appearance.

[Nicodema]

I'm curious to know in what ways we should be "weird and extremist". "Strait laced" to me seems to imply doing things very differently from the surrounding culture, perhaps having more restrictions on what we do and do not allow ourselves to do than the mainstream culture. But what does -- or can, or should -- "odd" mean? And where do we draw the line between being made a "spectacle" because God so ordains it versus making a "spectacle" of ourselves which might not be so healthy?

Let's get some thinking going here ...

[wicklunds]

Quote:

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Wicklands,

You call upon the members of C/A to survey the church with this quote in mind. I call upon you to declare your "self-denial, where is the cross-bearing that Christ has said should characterize his followers" ?

And yeah, I admit to reversing the role here and put the onus on you. You see, I believe when we take this attitude that you declare we should have, we ruin any sort of possible relationship that God could plant with us. Does this attitude that you declare we should have, negate the counsel that EGW has given to us with your emphasis? I think not, however, that said, I would have to look at the context and circumstances surrounding this passage....And the truth of the matter is...I don't have time. I have bee to get ready for a nector run, I have a house that is 1/3 painted, I have some things to do to run for my wife, and you want me to have a critical attitude against the church? I am sorry, Wicklunds, but I just don't have time to be critical of the church, especially if they are as busy as I am....And I will not fault them for the work that the Lord has given to them. But I do find fault you with this attitude and spreading of an attitude that hurts people, and the recipient of this message...

So I have only one thing to say to you-

Shame on you...

---

The quote speaks for itself in and out of context. You could do the same with scripture. The point is, Niel, that I am not criticizing "the church" but I am calling attention to the prophet who had plenty to say to ALL of us who comprise the church. Most, I am afraid to admit, are like you, in that they have not a care in the world about how we appear to the world. That is why we are so like the world, almost indistinguishable from the world. Never fear, for Satan our adversary walks about like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. Let us not devour each other, even when rebukes and reform are being urged. Niel, you claim to be a champion of the church and hard at work, but my question is, do you care enough to enter into corrective dialogue when you perceive a problem? What "work" will we be doing to help our neighbor come to a saving knowledge of Christ? Is our nectar more important than the balm of Gilead? Does our own household have such a hold on us that we are following the world down into hellfire? If this is true then Lord help us break free and see our true place.

[Bravus]

/me wanders off singing "They'll know we are Christians by our love"...

[Neil D]

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awwwwww!! And yet I feel that more "shame" should be applied to our dress and appearance.

---

Maybe to YOUR dress, but why should you be worried about mine?

Or Nico's or Amelia's or ....[insert any name you want]?

You see, Wicklund, you have produce evidence that to MY way of thinking, you are beyond God's help. You have shown yourself to have God's standards in mind and passing judgement upon the condition of his people. In my way of thinking, you are cynical to any sort of explanation that God is working in thier lives. You are a religious cynic. And to me, a cynic is a person who is beyond God's influence, even the Holy Spirit. To my mind, you have rejected the concept that Holy Spirit works in other people's lives to influence them. You are beyond hope in this area...The evidence is your posts themselves. The posts themselves show you attempting to do the Lord's work by being the Lord Himself and ordering people to do what you see needs to be done.

This type of attitude is counter productive to the Lord's work and to the church as a whole. Until you come to the attitude that people are attempting to do the best they can, inspite of all thier failings, you can never be the influence you so desire.

Quote:

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The quote speaks for itself in and out of context. You could do the same with scripture.

---

Not so. And the classic example is the texts that say "Judas hung himself" and "Go and do likewise." Without context, you could have a mass Jim Jones phenomina [sp].

Quote:

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The point is, Niel, that I am not criticizing "the church" but I am calling attention to the prophet who had plenty to say to ALL of us who comprise the church. Most, I am afraid to admit, are like you, in that they have not a care in the world about how we appear to the world.

---

How do you know that I dont have cares in this world? How do you know what I am thinking? The only reference that you have is yourself in this area, and the assumption that I am thinking like YOU.

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That is why we are so like the world, almost indistinguishable from the world. Never fear, for Satan our adversary walks about like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. Let us not devour each other, even when rebukes and reform are being urged.

---

"By beholding we become changed." I used to swear that I would never be like my verbally abusive grandfather. Guess what? I became verbally abusive. I took steps to counter that, but I had to put grandpa behind me and concentrate on something else. I choose to become as close to Jesus as I possibly could. My verbal abuse has dropped off tremendously. But I see it in others. And I point to Jesus when they want to know. I suggest that if you want others to change, you point them to the lovelyness of Jesus. If you can describe the loveliness of Jesus, you will influence them much better than the dysfunctional workings of rebuke and rejection and degration.

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Niel, you claim to be a champion of the church and hard at work,

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Whoa! I never made such claim. You, sir, are putting words into my mouth, and quite frankly, I don't like your reconstituted/prechewed words. They taste funny.

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... but my question is, do you care enough to enter into corrective dialogue when you perceive a problem?

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Since I am pointing out your cynicalness and your very grand but subtle errors, your point is....?

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What "work" will we be doing to help our neighbor come to a saving knowledge of Christ? Is our nectar more important than the balm of Gilead?

---

Honeybees have far more spiritual significance than you realize...After all, I don't know about you, but I do intend to go to the land of milk and HONEY. And the Lord is more sweet than honey, and honey is pretty sweet.

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Does our own household have such a hold on us that we are following the world down into hellfire? If this is true then Lord help us break free and see our true place.

---

My own house does take precidence when I don't paint it, and if I don't paint it, I am required to replace the siding, which is a significant cost. As for my "household", the members of my household are my concern,[NOT yours] and I am not concened about them, as they have been given a good foundation in the Lord.

[wicklunds]

I guess the bees can wait until later...I was almost convinced that you were sincere, but then you came back and wanted to argue some more. So when Paul told the women to cover their heads, that was counter-productive to the Lord's work? If someone comes to church with their breasts half-exposed, and someone tells her to cover up, that is being counter-productive? Insane people!! Where are you? On what are you standing? Truth? Or fables? Sorry Niel, but we need to stop attacking each other and attack the lies of the devil with a UNITED front. United on the platform of truth and godliness.

[Nicodema]

When Paul advised slaves to be obedient to their masters as a witness to the Lord, was he advocating slavery? Should we return to keeping human beings as slaves because Paul addressed a condition of his time and culture within the context of his day?

[wicklunds]

I don't know, you tell me Nico. We seem to be defending any and all choices in the church from the platform of Pauline theology. What about when our choices of dress cause the weaker brethren to stumble? What about the message we are sending to the world? This is important, but more important yet is the relationship with God we have that gives rise to increased sensitivity to others who look to us for spiritual leadership.

[Gail]

Wow, Dennis- I don't know where you go to church, but it isn't that way where my membership is...

One might see a visitor come in dressed in street attire, but we like visitors, and don't bother them about their clothing

Is this a trend in your area, what you are talking about?

[Clio]

Quote:

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Remember this quote as you survey the landscape in church next Sabbath...

When we reach the standard that the Lord would have us reach, worldlings will regard Seventh-day Adventists as odd, singular, straight-laced extremists. "We are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men."

{RH, January 9, 1894 par. 10}

---

James 4:11-12 11 Do not speak evil of one another, brethren. He who speaks evil of a brother and judges his brother, speaks evil of the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. 12 There is one *Lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy. Who* are you to judge *another?

When we focus on the outward appearance we have lost our focus on Jesus. The more we focus on a love relationship with Jesus, the less our focus will be upon the world.

1 Samuel 16:7 But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for [the LORD seeth] not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.

We are not called to judge our fellow Christians. We can't do it, being lost in sin ourselves. We are called to love them, pray for them, treat them with compassion and always focus our attention, and if possible, their attention on Jesus.

It is through beholding Him that we are become changed into the people He would have us be. It is only through beholding Jesus that we are changed...

2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord.

To focus your attention on the outward appearance of the members of the SDA congregation you attend, or any of us attends, is to take our eyes off of Jesus... and then, no matter where we go to church or what denomination we are, or whether or not we believe EGW was a prophet...no matter what else there is about us that might be good, right, or honest... we are lost.

Because we have taken our eyes off of Jesus.

Food for thought.

Clio

[Clio]

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Most, I am afraid to admit, are like you, in that they have not a care in the world about how we appear to the world. That is why we are so like the world, almost indistinguishable from the world. ... [snip] Niel, you claim to be a champion of the church and hard at work, but my question is, do you care enough to enter into corrective dialogue when you perceive a problem? [snip]

---

We are not called to judge and correct our brothers in Jesus. That is the work of the Holy Spirit and those placed in authority over them. Are you placed in authority over your church?

Quote:

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What "work" will we be doing to help our neighbor come to a saving knowledge of Christ? Is our nectar more important than the balm of Gilead? Does our own household have such a hold on us that we are following the world down into hellfire? If this is true then Lord help us break free and see our true place.

---

In no way are you applying the balm of Gilead. In no way have you brought a focus on the redemptive, compassionate love of a Saviour, who came to save not to condemn or judge. Instead you have become the judge, the jury, and the arbiter of fashion without knowing their hearts.

In Luke 6:36-37, out of the very heart and mouth of Jesus we are told, 36 Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful. 37 "Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

Even Jesus forebore to speak judgement on anyone. He knew He was sent into this world with one mission... to save all He possibly could, to give everlasting life. Judgement and punishment belong to One and One alone... and HE chooses to allow the veil of mercy to continue yet a while.

John 12:47-50 47 And if anyone hears My words and does not *believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. 48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him--the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak. 50 And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told Me, so I speak."

Is your understanding better than His? Cannot your life, your example, be the witness instead of condemning through your words? It is not by listening we are changed, it is by beholding Jesus.

Clio

[Guest]

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I agree, we're insufficiently weird and extremist.

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I HAVE NEVER BEEN ACCUSED OF THAT

[cricket]

Dennis, are you saying that the weaker brethren are prone to stumble because of the women with half-exposed breasts? Hmm. And, then are you saying that these very men are the ones requesting that she cover-up? My advice then, is that this request not be a one-sided front. Indeed, ask the women to cover up, but then also put up a strong battle and ask the men to stop looking lest they be tempted. (And, I should add, this should be done in a one-on-one basis---just as the woman is confronted, so should the men.)

[Dr. Shane]

I don't know if there ever was a time when Adventists dressed differently than the culture they lived in. Of course Adventists, like all Christians, have dressed modestly (which differs depending on the culture) but when I think of a group being "odd, singular, straight-laced extremists" and "made a spectacle unto the world", I think of Islamic women or the Amish. I don't think Adventists have ever been in that catagory.

[wicklunds]

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Dennis, are you saying that the weaker brethren are prone to stumble because of the women with half-exposed breasts? Hmm. And, then are you saying that these very men are the ones requesting that she cover-up? My advice then, is that this request not be a one-sided front. Indeed, ask the women to cover up, but then also put up a strong battle and ask the men to stop looking lest they be tempted. (And, I should add, this should be done in a one-on-one basis---just as the woman is confronted, so should the men.)

---

Obviously men have their spiritual work to do as well Christine. But must men walk around blindfolded? I am tired of this excusing of blatant and outright perversity in dress by women. This is not how we should be as SDA's. I am not talking about the visitor, I am talking about CHURCH MEMBERS.

[wicklunds]

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Quote:

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Most, I am afraid to admit, are like you, in that they have not a care in the world about how we appear to the world. That is why we are so like the world, almost indistinguishable from the world. ... [snip] Niel, you claim to be a champion of the church and hard at work, but my question is, do you care enough to enter into corrective dialogue when you perceive a problem? [snip]

---

We are not called to judge and correct our brothers in Jesus. That is the work of the Holy Spirit and those placed in authority over them. Are you placed in authority over your church?

Quote:

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What "work" will we be doing to help our neighbor come to a saving knowledge of Christ? Is our nectar more important than the balm of Gilead? Does our own household have such a hold on us that we are following the world down into hellfire? If this is true then Lord help us break free and see our true place.

---

In no way are you applying the balm of Gilead. In no way have you brought a focus on the redemptive, compassionate love of a Saviour, who came to save not to condemn or judge. Instead you have become the judge, the jury, and the arbiter of fashion without knowing their hearts.

In Luke 6:36-37, out of the very heart and mouth of Jesus we are told, 36 Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful. 37 "Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

Even Jesus forebore to speak judgement on anyone. He knew He was sent into this world with one mission... to save all He possibly could, to give everlasting life. Judgement and punishment belong to One and One alone... and HE chooses to allow the veil of mercy to continue yet a while.

John 12:47-50 47 And if anyone hears My words and does not *believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. 48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him--the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak. 50 And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told Me, so I speak."

Is your understanding better than His? Cannot your life, your example, be the witness instead of condemning through your words? It is not by listening we are changed, it is by beholding Jesus.

Clio

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Sorry to disagree Clio, but silence will not do in these areas. Like I said in another post, we must address the most obvious areas in our faith that need addressing RIGHT NOW or who can we blame for the stumbling of others? Yes there is obvious necessity of kind witness in our faith, but when a person cares so little about others as to not say a thing when the beam that is poking out of their eye pokes you in your's too, is this o.k.? Business as usual? Let us all go down in the same ship together? Lets grab hands and allow ourselves and our brothers and sisters to walk peacefully to the other banner? ...I am sorry but I cannot reasonate with all this. It is time we spoke up on this stuff and stop acting like dead ducks with the water rolling off our backs.

[Gail]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

I am tired of this excusing of blatant and outright perversity in dress by women. This is not how we should be as SDA's. I am not talking about the visitor, I am talking about CHURCH MEMBERS.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

And I am saying, I don't have a clue as to what you are talking about...

Perhaps our members in the churches up here in Canada are more conservative than down there, or maybe I belong to a more traditional congregation

But I do visit around the other area congregations and except for maybe once, the women I've noticed are dressed the same as they are in normal society- covered up. They don't look like those on kids' music videos or in the magazines, etc

I've noticed that people can tend to dress DOWN in some of the more liberal congregations, but not skanky

You talk as if it is a big problem or something... Is it really that bad where you are?

[wicklunds]

Gail,

In my initial post did I implicate any church specifically? And EW's words are very cutting for any church. Not only for the Liberal, but for the conservative as well. This is for everyone, you, me, and our brother and sister who are members in the faith. I didnt speak the words, sister White did. The reaction they have received on this thread are a gentle reminder that we have forgotten the leading of God through His prophet(s).

[Tom Wetmore]

Quote:

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/me wanders off singing "They'll know we are Christians by our love"...

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Bravus, I think you've got it! The context of the quote, that is...

Notwithstanding what Dennis perceives as the appropriate context and application of his highlighted sentence, the context is really about how our schools should be fundamentally different in the education they give to our children. EGW's concluding sentences to this short article are most telling as to what will distinguish us from the "worldlings":

Quote:

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"I am watching with intense interest, hoping to see our schools thoroughly imbued with the spirit of true and undefiled religion. When the students are thus imbued, they will see that there is a great work to be done in the lines in which Christ worked, and the time they have given to amusements, will be given up to doing earnest missionary work.

They will endeavor to do good to all about them,

to lift up souls that are bowed down in discouragement, and to enlighten those who are in the darkness of error. They will put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh to fulfil the lusts thereof." -RH, January 9, 1894 par. 12.

---

Tom

[wicklunds]

Quote:

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You see, Wicklund, you have produce evidence that to MY way of thinking, you are beyond God's help. You have shown yourself to have God's standards in mind and passing judgement upon the condition of his people. In my way of thinking, you are cynical to any sort of explanation that God is working in thier lives. You are a religious cynic. And to me, a cynic is a person who is beyond God's influence, even the Holy Spirit. To my mind, you have rejected the concept that Holy Spirit works in other people's lives to influence them. You are beyond hope in this area...The evidence is your posts themselves. The posts themselves show you attempting to do the Lord's work by being the Lord Himself and ordering people to do what you see needs to be done.

---

Where in any post have I stated that I am judge and jury over the church? And how is it that anyone is beyond God's help? Because I quoted sister White? If I apply the prophet's words to the prophet's church, how am I being judgmental? We need to understand that prophets are given a message specific to God's proffessed people. Who cares more, the one who ignores someone who is ready to fall into a ditch, or the one who points out the ditch and says hey you look out!!! And who appointed you judge of anyone Niel? I love you just the same, but where do you get off attacking someone who wants to serve God faithfully with fear and trembling? How have I rejected that the Holy Spirit is not at work in someone's life? Because I brought up the issue of modest dress? Wow!! I wouldnt want to be in a board meeting at your church with you on it!! We are calling evil good and good evil now.

[wicklunds]

Quote:

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Quote:

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/me wanders off singing "They'll know we are Christians by our love"...

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Bravus, I think you've got it! The context of the quote, that is...

Notwithstanding what Dennis perceives as the appropriate context and application of his highlighted sentence, the context is really about how our schools should be fundamentally different in the education they give to our children. EGW's concluding sentences to this short article are most telling as to what will distinguish us from the "worldlings":

Quote:

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"I am watching with intense interest, hoping to see our schools thoroughly imbued with the spirit of true and undefiled religion. When the students are thus imbued, they will see that there is a great work to be done in the lines in which Christ worked, and the time they have given to amusements, will be given up to doing earnest missionary work.

They will endeavor to do good to all about them,

to lift up souls that are bowed down in discouragement, and to enlighten those who are in the darkness of error. They will put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh to fulfil the lusts thereof." -RH, January 9, 1894 par. 12.

---

Tom

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And the quote would certainly be applicable to our churches as well Mr. Wetmore!!! Even more so in my opinion!!

[wicklunds]

Quote:

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My own house does take precidence when I don't paint it, and if I don't paint it, I am required to replace the siding, which is a significant cost. As for my "household", the members of my household are my concern,[NOT yours] and I am not concened about them, as they have been given a good foundation in the Lord.

---

Niel,

There is a song that I have heard recently on the radio, I don't know if I can remember the whole thing but here goes,

found here: http://www.acadisc.com/tvu.htm#oldhouse

This old house once knew my children

This old house once knew my wife

This old house was the home and comfort

As we fought the storms of life

This old house once rang with laughter

This old house heard many shouts

Now she trembles in the darkness when the nightwind walks about

Chorus 1:

Ain't a-gonna need this house no longer

Ain't a-gonna need this house no more

Ain't got time to fix the shingles (ain't got time)

Ain't got time to fix the doors (ain't got time)

Ain't got time to oil the hinges (ain't got time)

Or to fix no window pane (ain't got time)

Ain't gonna need this house no longer

I'm gettin' ready to meet the saints

This old house is gettin' shaky

This old house is gettin' old

This old house lets in the rain

And this old house lets in the cold

On my knees I'm a-gettin' chilly

But I feel no fear or pain

Cause I see an angel peakin'

Through the broken window pane

Repeat Chorus 1

Chorus 2:

Well it's a great, great morning

Your first day in Heaven

When you stroll down the golden avenue

There are mansions left and right

And you thrill with every sight

And the saints are always smiling

Saying, "How do you do?"

Oh it's a great, great morning

Your first day in Heaven

When you realize your worryin' days are through

You'll be glad you were not idle

Took time to read your Bible

It's a great, great morning for you

Well I had a dream, I must confess I hated to awake

He dreamed he was an angel at the great Pearly Gates

St. Peter said "Well hello there! Where have you been?

We've got your mansion ready, so come right on in!"

And Then he rang for an angel to act as a guide

He spread his wings a time or two and then let 'em fly

Anyway...

I hope you get my point. I love you friend, even though you think I am beyond help.

Dennis