Fashion police, look here!!!

May 28, 2005

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Give us the narrow context to which you wish to hold Jesus?

Most Adventists believe the Bible should interpret the Bible. I agree. In order to get the propper context of Matthew 6:31 one ought to back up and start at verse 25 and keep reading to verse 34. No commentary is needed.

May 28, 2005

And what point was that Larry? Was it really me that missed the point? Or was it the originator of this topic and those who rushed down the same wrong path? Or are you talking about the same thing Shane is on about? Didn't somebody miss the point most germane to this topic by stopping their reading at the end of Matthew 6? Or by just plain forgetting all about Matthew 7:1-5? Just because it isn't the point you want to make doesn't mean that I missed it. Why limit Jesus to one point per saying?

Jesus was quite specific, "Don't worry about food, and drink and clothes, God takes care of such things. You should seek first God's kingdom and his righteousness." And then he said, "Don't worry about your brother either, mind your own business." One point follows the other and there seems to be a connection. Go with the flow of the whole sermon and put it all together.

Tom

May 28, 2005

Quote:

Most Adventists believe the Bible should interpret the Bible. I agree. In order to get the propper context of Matthew 6:31 one ought to back up and start at verse 25 and keep reading to verse 34. No commentary is needed.

Thank-you Shane for implying that I somehow forgot that or am somehow a defective Adventist....

Actually, Shane the proper context begins at 5:1 and continues until 7:29. And you are right that none of these 8 pages of commentary would have been necessary at all if 7:1-5 had been heeded...

Tom

Now what was that tune that Bravus started humming....

May 28, 2005

Quote:

And what point was that Larry? Was it really me that missed the point? Or was it the originator of this topic and those who rushed down the same wrong path? Or are you talking about the same thing Shane is on about? Didn't somebody miss the point most germane to this topic by stopping their reading at the end of Matthew 6? Or by just plain forgetting all about Matthew 7:1-5? Just because it isn't the point you want to make doesn't mean that I missed it. Why limit Jesus to one point per saying?

Jesus was quite specific, "Don't worry about food, and drink and clothes, God takes care of such things. You should seek first God's kingdom and his righteousness." And then he said, "Don't worry about your brother either, mind your own business." One point follows the other and there seems to be a connection. Go with the flow of the whole sermon and put it all together.

Tom

Tom,

You are doing violence to the scriptures, and the very words and meanings of Christ. When the enemy comes in like a flood, the Lord will raise up a standard against him.

May 28, 2005

Tom is doing no such thing! Everyone with a genuine connection to Christ will continually be drawing old treasures AS WELL AS NEW from the Word of God. I know for myself, as tenuous as my own connection is, I frequently find new meanings and new understandings each time I read scripture, especially in the words of Jesus Himself. It is a LIVING Word, not a dead, static one.

Now let's look at the meaning Tom has extracted and set forth. It is simply that he is to seek first God's kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things (including food and clothing, the two examples of necessity given by Jesus) will be added. Jesus said take no thought for how we will be clothed. Certainly the primary meaning is to not worry as to how we shall be provided for but to trust in faith. However, might there not be a secondary meaning here which is applicable? I think the key lies in seeking first the kingdom of God and His righteousness. If we seek those first, other things fall into place, including appropriate dressing. And I think the rest of scripture bears this up.

For example, when I read the scripture that tells how a woman should be attired, "not with gold or pearls or costly array ... but with a meek and humble spirit" -- what I read is essentially don't waste a lot of time fussing around with appearance; rather just be simple and modest and let your real "adornment" be the character you develop and "wear" through your personality. I see the focus as being AWAY from excessive attention to clothing rather than toward MORE attention to it. Those counsels are meant to say basically that less is more -- less attention spent on outward appearance and more spent on inward character, which in my mind relates to "the kingdom of God and His righteousness" to which Jesus referred.

I'm not presuming to speak for Tom here, just sharing what I see in all of this. I certainly don't see Tom hideously wresting scripture as he has been accused of doing. And I don't see anything productive emerging from those accusations, either. Tom is not the enemy and he did not come in like a flood. He merely shared a word of scripture in season. I think we should be very careful about this business of automatically attributing anything that disagrees with our opinion or emphasis as being "the enemy". Sounds like a recipe for a House Divided to me, and we all know what becomes of those. (And yes, I am aware that I've been guilty of doing likewise myself.)

Just my :2cents:

Nico

May 28, 2005

Well, I guess I am wrong. I guess some commentary is needed.

Jesus says in verse 25 that we should take no thought for what we should eat, drink or wear. He is not saying that anything goes. He is not saying that it is ok to eat pork, drink whiskey or wear immodest clothing.

In verse 26 Jesus points out that God provides for the fowls' needs. In verse 27 He tells us not to worry because it will do us no good. Verses 28 - 30 Jesus uses the analogy God providing clothing for the grass of the feild.

In verse 31 Jesus brings it all together again. The topic of His sermon is WORRY. He is not preaching about what is acceptable to eat, drink or wear. He specifically says here that we should not worry about where our clothing will come from. He is not talking about fashion rather about the bare nessesities of life - food, water & clothing.

In verse 32 Jesus drives that point home. He tells us not to worry about our needs like unbelievers do. God knows our needs so if we trust in Him we need not worry.

Verses 33 & 34 summerize this portion of His sermon. Jesus tells us to seek the Kingdom of God and all His righteousness and our needs will be provided. Interesting here we are told to focus on God's righteousness. That is because without wearing the robe of Christ's righteousness none of us can see heaven and by wearing His righteousness we will be a witness unto the world. This command to focus on God's righteousness is then follwed by a command not to worry.

Do you recall an old, popular melody that said, "Don't worry, be happy"? Well Jesus is saying, "Don't worry, focus on Me". That is what the passage is all about. That is a far cry from eat what you want, drink what you want, wear what you want.

May 28, 2005

Sister Nico,

The problem I see in Brother Tom's approach is what his foundation seems to be. It seems that he starts out with the assumption that the only reason we discuss standards of righteousness is so we can judge our brothers and sisters. That assumption is in itself a judgment of those of us that wish to discuss God's will for each of us.

I am not accusing Brother Tom of this. However there are some that want to live without God's direction and standards and yet claim to be followers of Christ. They get nervious anytime anyone starts discussing God's expressed will for our conduct. So they automatically start judging those of us that discuss it by accusing us of wanting to judge others. They are trying to silence us. Actually they are trying to silence the Holy Spirit and as the apostle Paul discovered, it is hard to kick against the pricks.

I can't speak for others, but the reason I discuss righteousness and God's will for His people is because I want to live as He would have me. In fact, I don't trust my own instincts. When I live life the way I think is best, I mess it up. I must seek God's will for me if I have any hope of happiness in this life. So I am not concerned about God's will so I can judge others. I am more concerned about the guy in the mirror.

May 28, 2005

Quote:

However there are some that want to live without God's direction and standards and yet claim to be followers of Christ. They get nervious anytime anyone starts discussing God's expressed will for our conduct. So they automatically start judging those of us that discuss it by accusing us of wanting to judge others. They are trying to silence us. Actually they are trying to silence the Holy Spirit and as the apostle Paul discovered, it is hard to kick against the pricks.

That may be true, Brother Shane, but is this not just as much an assumption as the assumption that one brings up standards in order to judge others? In other words, why proceed from this assumption as opposed to any other? What makes this assumption safer or more sacrosanct, more desirable or more to be favored? Just wondering.

May 28, 2005

Quote:

I can't speak for others, but the reason I discuss righteousness and God's will for His people is because

I

want to live as He would have me. In fact,

I don't trust my own instincts.

When I live life the way I think is best, I mess it up. I must seek God's will for me if I have any hope of happiness in this life. So I am not concerned about God's will so I can judge others. I am more concerned about the guy in the mirror.

But who or what is it that ultimately determines whether something is, in fact, God's will or not? If we take scripture, who ultimately interprets what that scripture means? Is it your voice or is it another's, and if it is another's, who then ultimately decides that the wisdom of another's counsel surpasses one's own, if not oneself? So you see, Shane, we are continually thrown back upon ourselves for the final decision in all things, and cannot avoid or escape using our own judgment. (I'm bringing this up not to contend against you but because I, too, am trying to figure out what is God's will in much the same way and for much the same reason as you stated.)

May 28, 2005

Quote:

My apology was sincere, but I still believe that the words could be applied to any area of our faith. Don't you?

And I noticed that you avoided my question regarding the appology- What good is it? I suspect and this thought is begining to harden, your appology means NOTHING! Another piece of evidence that gives credence to the other thought-a cynic is rejecting the HS.

Quote:

Niel, I am grateful for your presence even though things have gotten out of hand. I must remind you of a couple things however:

BTW, the name is N *EI*l, not Niel...You have, over every single post, failed to notice this fact.

As for things 'getting out of hand', for you, maybe, but I have not even begun to talk about this subject. I have much more to say, but in my mind, it is of no use to persuade you of changing your attitude, let alone your posts.

Quote:

1.) I began the thread.

Granted, and one thought that I will concur and will conceed.

Quote:

2.) You mentioned that you were giving me the last word several posts back.

That is true too, but up to that point where your powers of observation have fail. There was an little item that you forgot to mention in this....See the next paragraph.

Quote:

Since then you have returned several times, which is fine. But don't come back time and again saying you arent interested in any more discussion. It is too complex for us simple-minded folk to handle.

You forgot that you asked for a clarification. I understood that to mean that you wanted to know further where I was coming from. I think that I made that clear, that is, you are doing the devils work in religious garb. Something the bible talks about 'even Satan appears in clothing of light" or something to that effect and in no good light.

Since your appology, and your request for more information, I have endevored to further your enlightenment, but to no avail. Since this is a rather painful subject for me, I may not be conversing on this thread anymore...even if you ask for further clarification. You are just too contentous for me to bother with. And while I do deem that those who condemn the church and/or members of it by using EGW to hide behind as hopelessly cynical, I will point that out to the individual from time to time. In the meantime, I have better things to do than argue every nuance of YOUR non-biblical, non-EGW sactioned dysfuncitions.

May 28, 2005

Shane:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

However there are some that want to live without God's direction and standards and yet claim to be followers of Christ.

Nico:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

is this not just as much an assumption as the assumption that one brings up standards in order to judge others?

Good question. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to clarify. My statment is not directed at any individual or group. I am simply stating that these types of people exist. It is also true that there are judgmental people that search the Bible for ways to judge others. Note, I did not assume Brother Tom's motivation.

May 28, 2005

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

who or what is it that ultimately determines whether something is, in fact, God's will or not?

For Protestants the answer is the Bible. How do we understand the Bible? Of course God uses other people so discussing God's standards in a forum like this can aid us in discovering God's will. The Holy Spirit speaks to me and uses God's Word to do so. We must be humble to hear His voice. When we humble our hearts the word of the righteous will be a kindness to us. We will count the words of the rightous as an excellent oil (Ps. 141:5).

May 28, 2005

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

BTW, the name is N *EI*l, not Niel...

Try not to get too excited. I have probally made the same mistake more than a dozen times. So much for the i before e except after c, right <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I can't count how many times people have called me Sean instead of Shane <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

May 29, 2005

Quote:

Everyone with a genuine connection to Christ will continually be drawing old treasures AS WELL AS NEW from the Word of God.

And that's the way I see it also (the whole post), at least without being nit-picky. Just in case I get a little for the next few posts hope you'll keep in mind that I'm trying to present principles from personal testimony that can be applied to numerous situations, not just the right clothes at the right time, etc.

By the way, Nico, whenever you get a feeling like God has left you, remember it is the Holy Spirit who gives you a sound mind (common sense). That comes only as a gift of God.

Many do not have that gift and it is a sure indication that God is honoring your request that He live His life in you.

However if you are angry during the time of professing truth, you can almost be sure you are not being motivated by God's Spirit.

[:"red"] "A man of wrath stirs up strife, and a man given to anger commits and causes much transgression." [/] Proverbs 29:22 AMP

[:"red"] "....for the wrath of man does not produce the righteousness of God. [/] James 1:20 NKJV

But then your common sense told you that.

May 29, 2005

Quote:

... the reason I discuss righteousness and God's will for His people is because

I

want to live as He would have me.

And I believe personal testimony like that is one of the keys to the kingdom.

[:"red"] "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven." [/] Matt 16:19 AMP

[:"red"] "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony ; and they loved not their lives unto the death." [/] Rev 12:11 KJV

Keep the faith!

May 29, 2005

Quote:

I am more concerned about the guy in the mirror.

OTOH, if we know someone could be dangerously close to rejecting the blessings of God, is it proper to ignore a brother we're concerned about but choose to remain silent on the perchance the brother might get uptight.

[:"red"] "But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.

"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

"For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW; " [/] Matt 10:33-35 NASB Emph theirs

Quote:

But who or what is it that ultimately determines whether something is, in fact, God's will or not?

[:"red"] "If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority" [/] John 7:17 NKJV

Quote:

If we take scripture, who ultimately interprets what that scripture means?

[:"red"] "...knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture (declared will and purpose of God)is of any private interpretation" [/] 2 Pet 1:20 NKJV

Quote:

we are continually thrown back upon ourselves for the final decision in all things, and cannot avoid or escape using our own judgment.

That's definitely true of whether to believe or not to believe. But what we believe to be true neither makes it true or false. And what we don't believe neither makes it true or false.

[:"red"] "Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief." [/] Mark 9:23,24

The words of Jesus were true whether the suppliant believed them or not. Only his ability to receive the words of truth

were based on his belief. The man/woman may not believe the way they dress has anything to do with their own sprituality, but when the pervert takes advantage of the person who is immodest in dress, it will be more difficult for the follower of Christ to maintain their trust that Christ will always do the right thing for them during the subsequent trauma. This, of course, would be directly referring to the believer who had been convicted of immodesty by the Holy Spirit and had chosen to ignore the warning/s.

[:"red"] "Cause me to hear thy lovingkindness in the morning; for in thee do I trust: cause me to know the way wherein I should walk; for I lift up my soul unto thee." [/] Psalm 143:8 KJV

[:"red"] "So try to walk a middle course--but those who fear God will succeed either way. " [/] Eccl 7:18 NLT

[:"red"] "Your ears shall hear a word behind you, saying, "This is the way, walk in it," Whenever you turn to the right hand Or whenever you turn to the left." [/] Isaiah 30:21 NKJV

Keep the faith!

May 29, 2005

Quote:

For Protestants the answer is the Bible. How do we understand the Bible? Of course God uses other people so discussing God's standards in a forum like this can aid us in discovering God's will. The Holy Spirit speaks to me and uses God's Word to do so. We must be humble to hear His voice. When we humble our hearts the word of the righteous will be a kindness to us. We will count the words of the rightous as an excellent oil (Ps. 141:5).

I'm for that!

May 29, 2005

Quote:

However there are some that want to live without God's direction and standards and yet claim to be followers of Christ. They get nervious anytime anyone starts discussing God's expressed will for our conduct. So they automatically start judging those of us that discuss it by accusing us of wanting to judge others. They are trying to silence us. Actually they are trying to silence the Holy Spirit and as the apostle Paul discovered, it is hard to kick against the pricks.

That may be true, Brother Shane, but is this not just as much an assumption as the assumption that one brings up standards in order to judge others? In other words, why proceed from this assumption as opposed to any other? What makes this assumption safer or more sacrosanct, more desirable or more to be favored? Just wondering.

I think you have a good point here, Nico. And I believe that many assumptions (far more than at present) could be laid to rest by heeding a very simple principle, one I'm not always faithful to follow, though I do try. Thank you, Lord, my salvation is assured by Your righteousness and not my own.

[:"red"] "Love...... , is ever ready to believe the best of every person" [/] 1 Cor 13:7 AMP

Keep the faith!

May 29, 2005

Quote:

My statment is not directed at any individual or group. >> I am simply stating that these types of people exist.<< It is also true that there are judgmental people that search the Bible for ways to judge others.

Re: >> << And yet when a comment like that is made would you not find it true that people might look around, wondering if you are referring to them. If it is just between you and me, and I know it isn't me, is it safe to say you must be talking about yourself? Or maybe me, God forbid, and then what is that going to do to the friendship I thought we were developing? And if we weren't developing a friendship, would it be safe to say we probably would find it harder to develop one now. Mind you, I'm not talking about egregious immorality. I'm merely referring to whether a man ought to waste his money on a hat because he wishes to hide his bald pate. Or he might want to avoid sunburn. Seems like it could sometimes come down to this text.

[:"red"] "And He also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt:

"Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.

"The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: 'God, I thank You that I am not like other people : swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector.

'I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.'

"But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, the sinner!'

"I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other" [/] Luke 18:9-14 NASB

Keep the faith!

May 29, 2005

Here are my words in context:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

I am not accusing Brother Tom of this. However there are some that want to live without God's direction and standards and yet claim to be followers of Christ.

So when I later wrote:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

My statment is not directed at any individual or group.

I think that should have been clear from my original post.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

when a comment like that is made would you not find it true that people might look around, wondering if you are referring to them?

We should. All of us should always be continually evaluating ourselves. (Ps. 139:23, 24)

May 30, 2005

Quote:

We should. All of us should always be continually evaluating ourselves. (Ps. 139:23, 24)

[:"red"] "Search me [thoroughly], O God, and know my heart! Try me and know my thoughts!

And see if there is any wicked or hurtful way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting." [/] Psalm 139:23,24 AMP

Notice, Shane, that the text refers to our Father's searching.

You've undoubtedly heard the best way to recognize a counterfeit bill is to study the genuine. Keeping our eyes focused on Jesus gives us all the facility we need for identifying the specious, plus the power through Christ to affect changes needed as we are led to follow His example. Constantly looking at and analyzing our own and other's sinfulness has just one sure result, demoralization.

I've found the best way to avoid self-incrimination, as well as giving all others the freedom and right to do as they wish without condemnation from me, is to just preach the Word. This gives a clear field for the Holy Spirit to speak without the fallibility of a fallen human to make, what is very simple and clear, difficult to comprehend.

And if you would be prone to pick out posts of mine that belie the truth of the matter just expressed, I'm still working on doing it as Jesus would.

Keep the faith!

May 30, 2005

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Notice, Shane, that the text refers to our Father's searching.

Do you wait for Him to speak to you through the rocks? I find that reviewing my day's activities during my evening prayers the Holy Spirit convicts me of my errors.

May 30, 2005

How about a balance here: He does the searching; we give Him the time and focus to do it with us.

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