Fashion police, look here!!!

May 24, 2005

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Sorry to disagree Clio, but silence will not do in these areas. Like I said in another post, we must address the most obvious areas in our faith that need addressing RIGHT NOW or who can we blame for the stumbling of others? [/quote}

Jesus did not assign blame. In fact, He said over and over that He came to save the world, not to condemn it. We are not called to blame ANYONE for the stumbling of others. We are called to point them to Jesus.

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Yes there is obvious necessity of kind witness in our faith, but when a person cares so little about others as to not say a thing when the beam that is poking out of their eye pokes you in your's too, is this o.k.?

If you have such a problem with someone's dress that you cannot see them compassionately as a Child of Abba Father, then the issue is with you... not them. By beholding Jesus they will become changed, and who is to say that your rancorous harping hurts more than it helps? If the beam pokes you in your eye... you are looking at the beam with judgement in your heart... and not a Jesus who commands us not to judge.

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Business as usual? Let us all go down in the same ship together? Lets grab hands and allow ourselves and our brothers and sisters to walk peacefully to the other banner?

Absolutely not. I would immediately begin a prayer campaign coupled with a silent personal example. The prayer campaign would be one to remove the judgement from my heart, remove the inappropriate response their dress aroused in ME, and for Jesus to work in their lives according to HIS pleasure and perfect will. And then I would carry that prayer campaign through until Jesus was done with whatever He chose to do. I would invite like-minded believers to pray with me, I would rally my prayer warriors to pray for me, and then I would wait for the miracles sure to occur.

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...I am sorry but I cannot reasonate with all this. It is time we spoke up on this stuff and stop acting like dead ducks with the water rolling off our backs.

You cannot resonate on the direct Word of Scripture throughout my post?

You just hit my prayer list.

clio

May 24, 2005

I am never against praying, friend. But I am not talking about confronting everyone not dressed in conformity with a higher standard; I am talking about observation in church as to how short of the mark we tend to be in this area. Why is this so wrong? There were standards of dress in Jesus' day just like there is a lack of them in ours. This is not a new thing by any means, but it is out of hand and needs addressing RIGHT NOW!!! Corporately, and individually!!

Thanks for understanding,

Dennis

May 24, 2005

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Where in any post have I stated that I am judge and jury over the church?

I would reply where have you given grace and encouraged people to be more like Jesus? I do have evidence of spreading the attitude of criticism in your posts, which all here can see.

But what use is it to talk to you about changing your views? Your mind is made up and short of the Holy Spirit bringing a conversion, I don't see you as listening to anything I would say. As I have said, you are a religious cynic and not inclined to be readily open to the Holy Spirit's prompting thru another person.

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Because I quoted sister White? If I apply the prophet's words to the prophet's church, how am I being judgmental?

Dennis, because you have to hide behind the words of a Prophet, you are a coward. You can't say what you feel to be the truth without using some of the "magical"/"righteous" words of EGW. You have to use a prophets words to make yourself heard, and have abused her works. It is a typical religous cynics gambit. Use someone of importance words to make your own statement. IMHO, that is foolishness.

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Who cares more, the one who ignores someone who is ready to fall into a ditch, or the one who points out the ditch and says hey you look out!!!

But you haven't pointed out any situation where we are gonna fall into and get hurt. Instead, you have encouraged others in being critical, hurting relationships, and generally being stupid about relationships. This is dysfunctional behavior, another typical religious cynics gambit.

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I love you just the same, but where do you get off attacking someone who wants to serve God faithfully with fear and trembling

First off, don't be hypocritical. You don't know me, nor do you love me. If you did, you would be talking much different to me than what you are dong now.

Second, I will label you when you act in a fashion deserving of that label. Sorry, you are being a religous cynic, in my view. If you want off that list, provide evidence that is more in line with being a Christian, a Seventh day Adventist Christian, not a Seventh day adventist nut.

As I have said before in another post, you are beyond my help. I just hope you have not blasphemed the HS by rejecting any help He has attempted to give. That's what cynics do...

So, since there is no profit in continuing this discussion with you, you can have the last word...Make it a good one, Dennis.

May 24, 2005

Thank you for the fresh insights, but I will go to the Lord when I need help, not Niel. My pride may be wounded, but the Holy Spirit speaks through Ellen White's counsel to me, and I see that many in the church such as yourself, have rejected her writings. I am not hiding behind anyone's writings, as I see it, I am bringing out in the open what others, such as yourself, have suppressed for far too long. When you accused me of being beyond the help of the Holy Spirit, you have also endangered your own walk with Him/it, because you have, in effect, made your own opinion, the voice of God. Sorry to disagree, but you ought to seek the will of the Lord also friend. We are brothers, not accusers of brothers, right?

May 24, 2005

But it's not your place to make that determination Wicklunds. You are judging their heart without knowing it, and chastising them on that basis.

You are usurping the role of the Holy Spirit as convictor, Abba Father as Judge and Punisher, and not following the role of Jesus as pleading for mercy, salvation, and change.

clio

May 24, 2005

Who have I chastized? Do you mean by bringing to light problems in our churches I have done this? Ridiculous!! If we have eyes to see and do not look at the signs of the times, we have failed carrying out Christ's admonition for us to watch and pray!!! I have not usurped the role of the Holy Spirit in anyone's life, only brought to my own attention the need for prayer and intercession. Our church deteriorates and you and others say, SHUT UP! How is this fair and equitable? Would Christ ask us to do this?? Who is talking about punishment here? All I did was tell people to look around Clio. Don't talk to me about the Holy Spirit when it seems we have quietly let error creep into our ranks and have become strange bedfellows with strange women.

Pro 2:1 My son, if you will receive my words And treasure my commandments within you,

Pro 2:2 Make your ear attentive to wisdom, Incline your heart to understanding;

Pro 2:3 For if you cry for discernment, Lift your voice for understanding;

Pro 2:4 If you seek her as silver And search for her as for hidden treasures;

Pro 2:5 Then you will discern the fear of the LORD And discover the knowledge of God.

Pro 2:6 For the LORD gives wisdom; From His mouth come knowledge and understanding.

Pro 2:7 He stores up sound wisdom for the upright; He is a shield to those who walk in integrity,

Pro 2:8 Guarding the paths of justice, And He preserves the way of His godly ones.

Pro 2:9 Then you will discern righteousness and justice And equity and every good course.

Pro 2:10 For wisdom will enter your heart And knowledge will be pleasant to your soul;

Pro 2:11 Discretion will guard you, Understanding will watch over you,

Pro 2:12 To deliver you from the way of evil, From the man who speaks perverse things;

Pro 2:13 From those who leave the paths of uprightness To walk in the ways of darkness;

Pro 2:14 Who delight in doing evil And rejoice in the perversity of evil;

Pro 2:15 Whose paths are crooked, And who are devious in their ways;

Pro 2:16 To deliver you from the strange woman, From the adulteress who flatters with her words;

Pro 2:17 That leaves the companion of her youth And forgets the covenant of her God;

May 24, 2005

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But it's not your place to make that determination Wicklunds. You are judging their heart without knowing it, and chastising them on that basis.

Clio, you are right on the money!...But he will not listen. Oh, he 'hears', but he is not listening. We have given him the straight testomony, but he refuses to listen. Now we have to follow Paul's advise and leave him to his own deceptions. That is the one thing that cynics do not like, is to be left alone and ignored. It forces them to wrestles with the HS, where the HS can actually talk to them.

They won't know it, of course, but they will hear our silence.....amazingly.

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You are usurping the role of the Holy Spirit as convictor, Abba Father as Judge and Punisher, and not following the role of Jesus as pleading for mercy, salvation, and change. clio

Again, you are right on the money. I take it that you have had an experience similar to this and took the oppertunity that Jesus has offered?

May 24, 2005

Neil -

With many tears watering my prayers and Abba Father's gracious intercession when I didn't get the message... to my sorrow... yes.

Thankfully, Jesus knew my heart was actively pursuing Him, but I didn't know enough yet about how battles such as this are won. Jesus and Abba Father bound shut the ears which should not have heard my vituperative spewings of false religion, and kept them shut for YEARS.

And once, when I insisted, He bound shut my mouth that should not have spoken.

Jesus is all there is. He is perfect in every way. He is Omniscient, He is all Powerful, He is all Victorious. There is nothing too hard for Him... including changing the fashion statements of entire churches. Beholding HIM we are changed.

What wicklunds is choosing to do... Jesus would not do.

Neil, we cannot do as you suggest, which is to ignore him and leave him to his own devices. Neither can we engage him on his level. All we can do is pray for him. I would suggest in two ways. Pray that he has a softened heart the Holy Spirit can work with, and that he responds in all sincerity, with a goodly, prepared heart, and not one that is full of stones, a beaten path, or thorns and thistles.

I was told by someone whose counsel I value very highly that the SDA church as a whole is a most curious organization. They find it troubling that a man-made organization which teaches the remnant during the time of the great Apostasy, should have that Apostasy sitting in it's ranks. In further explanation I was told that great light was given, but it has become tradition, rules, chains, and fetters and the right relationship with the Architect of all has been lost.

It is all about a love relationship with Jesus. If you pursure, grab on to, chase after, and desire that love relationship with Jesus, you can't help yourself... you'll do all the rest of it right... because to do anything else will cause physical pain.

clio

May 24, 2005

Traditions aside, I hope people choose, above all, not to listen to the party line of religious opinions (Clio and Niel) and search the Word for the right answers. I must humbly submit to God that what I said in my first post is applicable to our churches.

May 24, 2005

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I don't know if there ever was a time when Adventists dressed differently than the culture they lived in. Of course Adventists, like all Christians, have dressed modestly (which differs depending on the culture) but when I think of a group being "odd, singular, straight-laced extremists" and "made a spectacle unto the world", I think of Islamic women or the Amish. I don't think Adventists have ever been in that catagory.

Maybe it is time for a change...got any ideas???

May 24, 2005

Quote:

Neil, we cannot do as you suggest, which is to ignore him and leave him to his own devices. Neither can we engage him on his level. All we can do is pray for him. I would suggest in two ways. Pray that he has a softened heart the Holy Spirit can work with, and that he responds in all sincerity, with a goodly, prepared heart, and not one that is full of stones, a beaten path, or thorns and thistles.

As Spiro Agnew once said-

Nolo Contendre!

May 24, 2005

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

I don't know if there ever was a time when Adventists dressed differently than the culture they lived in. Of course Adventists, like all Christians, have dressed modestly (which differs depending on the culture) but when I think of a group being "odd, singular, straight-laced extremists" and "made a spectacle unto the world", I think of Islamic women or the Amish. I don't think Adventists have ever been in that catagory.

Yes, some Adventists HAVE been in that category. I have seen some who have spent time in self-supporting ministry or schools who have worn long dresses with hiking boots and pants if the weather is too cold. Their appearance made them look like Little House on the Prairie people

Indeed, there was a time when I myself wore such a long dress. Odd and extreme I certainly must have looked.

I can't remember that anyone was brought to the fold through that influence... looking back, I think I probably made myself unapproachable by it

Is there anything wrong with simple modesty?

May 24, 2005

Quote:

Indeed, there was a time when I myself wore such a long dress. Odd and extreme I certainly must have looked.

I can't remember that anyone was brought to the fold through that influence... looking back, I think I probably made myself unapproachable by it

Is there anything wrong with simple modesty?

Gail -

I do think that simple modesty, with clothing that is a little bit special is indeed pleasing to Abba Father.

We have special clothes for Sabbath, that are modest, neat, and clean. It is clothing not worn every day, and also the best we can afford.

A voice of sanity you are... simple modesty, combined with sufficient "bestness" to honor Abba and Jesus...

clio

May 24, 2005

I may have this wrong, but I thought EGW somewhere advises that we should be neither the first to take up a new fashion nor the last to discard it - in other words, blend in within the bounds of modesty (in physical and financial terms).

And Gail, I would think most of us would not like to be remembered for some of the fashions we have worn in our younger days. Especially if we remember the 70s.

( <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/129933-offtopic2.gif" alt="" /> I remember the mirth provoked in my children, in their mid teens, when they saw videos of how they were dressed 10 years earlier. )

May 24, 2005

Quote:

I may have this wrong, but I thought EGW somewhere advises that we should be neither the first to take up a new fashion nor the last to discard it - in other words, blend in within the bounds of modesty (in physical and financial terms).

And Gail, I would think most of us would not like to be remembered for some of the fashions we have worn in our younger days. Especially if we remember the 70s.

(

I remember the mirth provoked in my children, in their mid teens, when they saw videos of how they were dressed 10 years earlier. )

Mirth? Mirth? seems a tad of an understatement to me... mine went off into gales of uproarious laughter resulting in hiccups, tears, and nearly the wetting of pants... My youngest rolled on the floor for at least 10 minutes until I had the good sense to remove the pictures causing the upheaval from her line of sight.....

Shame on you for taking me off topic....

May 24, 2005

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Maybe to YOUR dress, but why should you be worried about mine?

Or Nico's or Amelia's or

Please, no need to worry about my dress. Its hanging quite nicely in the closet right now.

May 25, 2005

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Please, no need to worry about my dress. Its hanging quite nicely in the closet right now.

Oh... oh... if someone wants to worry about a dress... worry about mine... this being Alaska... I tend to wear nice pants to church....

Well, maybe this week I'll wear a dress if it doesn't snow....

May 25, 2005

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

I am talking about observation in church as to how short of the mark we tend to be in this area

Short of what mark Dennis? I dont know of any dress code for church attendance. So I would like to know by what "standards" the mark is based on? Personally, I know for myself what modest dress means, but my modest standard is not anothers, is not anothers and is probably not yours. So saying that the corporate dress is falling short of the mark, fails to accomplish anything when the corporate is unable to quage the mark.

May 25, 2005

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I am talking about observation in church as to how short of the mark we tend to be in this area

Short of what mark Dennis? I dont know of any dress code for church attendance. So I would like to know by what "standards" the mark is based on? Personally, I know for myself what modest dress means, but my modest standard is not anothers, is not anothers and is probably not yours. So saying that the corporate dress is falling short of the mark, fails to accomplish anything when the corporate is unable to quage the mark.

Exactly my point, no standards=anything goes. Now, the normal person might have a general idea about what is acceptable, but those acceptable limits are being pushed and pushed to the brink. Go back and read the first quote that I posted by Ellen White, then ask how high the standard should be. It is not mine or yours or anyones except God's right? What does God want us to be wearing to testify to His righteousness and grace? That is the question. What do His peculiar people wear? That is a fair question. It would seem by appearances, that the tighter and more revealing, the better it is for church.

May 25, 2005

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

What does God want us to be wearing to testify to His righteousness and grace?

Dennis, no one knows this because Gods Word has never spoken to this subject. Jesus didnt tell the apostles, go change your clothes and then follow me. He took them as He found them.

May 25, 2005

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

I thought EGW somewhere advises that we should be neither the first to take up a new fashion nor the last to discard it

From the pictures I have seen, Sister White dressed a lot like other women during her time.

May 25, 2005

Quote:

What does God want us to be wearing to testify to His righteousness and grace?

Dennis, no one knows this because Gods Word has never spoken to this subject. Jesus didnt tell the apostles, go change your clothes and then follow me. He took them as He found them.

Yes, that may be partly true, but how much do we know of why He chose the ones He did? And the issue of dress was not an issue with the Jews so much was it?

May 25, 2005

Sheesh Dennis, next thing you'll be wanting us to wear special underwear like the mormons. Do you believe that the bible speaks on those things that are important for us to understand? That are important for our salvation? Honestly, God loves me and my salvation is through His Son Jesus and not through weather or not I wear a skirt that is 2 inches above or below my knees.

May 25, 2005

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I think I've got it! Hold me down now, don't want to let my excitement get in the way, but.....! If we are looking at everybody else in church and checking out the flesh, opps, I mean the sinful exposed flesh....ta-da, I won't hear any more of those, whatever he calls them, sermons that you know who is talking about, the got milk guy! And if we can't hear those 'awful' sermons, then, then...oh, wait a minute, I might become a lustful person! No, No, thats not the answer...let me see now, opps, can't see, must keep my eyes covered. It's all womens fault anyway, I give up!!!

sniggering <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mittelgr124.gif" alt="" />

May 25, 2005

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

you'll be wanting us to wear special underwear like the mormons.

The mormons have special underwear? Are they made by the Amish?

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