One woman's perspective on the PUC meeting...

[olger]

"At times I found it extremely difficult to watch the Pacific Union Conference emergency constituency meeting online Sunday, and had to step out of the room a couple times in frustration. It was hard to hear people twist scripture and the writings of Ellen White, as they attempted to make their desires appear holy. Even though the majority who attended were of the same opinion, God still miraculously intervened amid misinformation and highly charged emotional appeals for equality.

Now that the much-advertised PUC meeting is over, people are asking, “What exactly happened and how are things different?”

Many people are unaware the primary purpose for this meeting was to push through a change in the union’s bylaws so it could legitimize the ordaining of women without being at odds with General Conference policy.

So when the vote to change the bylaws failed by one percent, some delegates noted an audible groan in the room. Why? Continuing to vote the second motion was, at that point, an empty victory. After all, the PUC was already ordaining female pastors.

Documents given to delegates by the legal counsel made clear that if the motion to change the bylaws failed, they would still vote on the second motion to ordain women simply so “… the constituency’s voice be heard.” Ridiculously, other than affirming what the union is currently doing and as a public relations stunt, there was no change in policy made in Sunday’s vote. The motion regarding gender was still voted, perhaps largely to mitigate the appearance the union had just wasted an obscene amount of time and money for naught. Hundreds of thousands of dollars were spent on this meeting. A friend commented to me afterwards, “This makes me rethink where I give my tithe money.” Although I believe the church is the storehouse, I understand why she feels that way.

Furthermore, it appeared everything that could possibly be done to manipulate the decision of the delegates was done. For three months, the PUC Recorder was jammed with biased, one-sided articles arguing for the ordination of women. It acted as a bully pulpit for women’s ordination, if you will.

Also, a day before the constituency meeting, Loma Linda University Church had a special two-hour “informational meeting” for delegates that was also streamed on the internet. This lopsided “pep rally” led by union and conference officers was solely dedicated to urging delegates to vote in favor of the motions. Absolutely no time was given to represent opposing viewpoints, held by the majority of Adventists.

If all that wasn’t enough, at Sunday’s constituency session our General Conference President Ted Wilson was rudely interrupted by a woman as he was respectfully articulating reasons to not vote the motions. This was followed with the proponents of women’s ordination clapping and jeering. I couldn’t help but think this was surely one time where quieting a clucking woman in church should have applied. I was appalled at such a lack of respect for our president, and the sorely underrepresented “other” viewpoint.

Finally, the delegates were basically forced to listen to three lengthy pro women’s ordination sermons as Sunday’s meeting wrapped up. The sermons were represented as “informational” but were obviously one final burst of emotional propaganda to manipulate delegates immediately before the vote. Other than the two minute sound bites, no time was given to represent the majority of Adventists.

The structure of the meeting was more akin to a political convention filled with all the usual emotional appeals and propaganda rather than a church constituency meeting. Even though there was a boast of love and unity from proponents of women’s ordination, there was little respect shown, even to the person representing the church’s highest authority. It was jaw dropping how the North American Division Vice-President Ernest Castillo derided Elder Wilson, who represented the one main voice in opposition to the rebellion. It was easy to see what spirit was in control.

It appeared the deck was stacked, but God still intervened. Praise Him the change to the bylaws failed. This means the PUC is still out of harmony and policy with the world church, and something has to be done.

As a spectator watching the shenanigans of the PUC, I hope to see the General Conference Executive Committee in October effectively discipline this union with a loving but firm hand at the annual council. And I know I speak for other women as well, who also value the distinct God-given roles of men and women in the home and church."

[Nic Samojluk]

Perhaps the Lord made a mistake when he chose a woman to preach, teach and instruct the entire 17 million community of faith. There is no highest honor granted to a human being than that of being his messenger, and should we deny women the much lower honor to teach a few hundred members? Are we this blind to what the Lord did a century ago?

[Woody]

Shouldn't a women in the church be silent and allow her husband to speak on such matters.

Certainly unbecoming.

[Naomi]

Quote:

Shouldn't a women in the church be silent and allow her husband to speak on such matters.

Certainly unbecoming.

Women have been involved in ministries of various kinds since the inception. It is not necessary to be ordained for male or female to go and preach. There are so many, many ways in which anyone can serve the church and/or their community, preaching is only a very small percentage. From what I can tell ordination is in part concerning a monetary issue...in many cases is not an issue; and a power play.

As I have said many times, I am neither for or against women’s ordination ... but to create such a situation with so much hostility makes it difficult to support. It is statements such as this which make it an inflammatory issue. Here on C/A there are some mods and some members are obviously very much in favor of keeping the issue alive which pits members against members creating a hostile environment. In every sector of civilization there is a protocol which can either allow things to run smoothly in their own time or create ciaos and mass dissension.

[Gerr]

If this report of the atmosphere is accurate, can the Holy Spirit influence such a meeting? Sounds like another spirit ruled.

[Naomi]

:)

[JoeMo]

As long as hostility reigns on this or any other thread, the other spirit Gerry talked about will have an opening to attack us wherever he finds us vulnerable. That being said, I was recently reminded by a good friend that offense is sometimes in the eye of the one allegedly being offended. It always takes two to tangle.

"A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger." (Prov 15:1)

May we all use soft answers,

JoeMo

[CoAspen]

Interesting that people give validity, at a shoe drop, to this 'article' with out any knowledge of its source or veracity. Before assuming........maybe , just maybe, I'm just saying....who/whom is the source and what was there mindset before.

(Obviously the posting on this forum was done on purpose to........since religious topics are not supposed to be here....and we have a forum for the topic.)

[Woody]

Quote:

(Obviously the posting on this forum was done on purpose to........since religious topics are not supposed to be here....and we have a forum for the topic.)

Interesting. Possibly someone trying to promote their agenda and cause division in a forum more widely read by those who are trying hard to avoid the strike and backbiting that goes on in the appropriate forum?

[LifeHiscost]

The early messenger responsible for, in concert with the Word, the vast majority of the pillars of the Adventist church so far as I know, never asked for nor was "honored" with approval by fiat in order to pass on what God had ordained necessary and appropriate for her input. Those who decide to take the "bull by the horns" when they don't get their way, reveal the church they belong to, of which there are only two.

1. The church of Jesus Christ

2. The synagogue of satan.

There may be some room there for those too immature and ignorant not to be able to discern the difference between the church of God and the enemy of souls and Jesus left this promise for those.

"And Jesus said, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And parting his garments among them, they cast lots]."Luke 23:34 ASV underlined mine LHC meaning "lots of luck.

God blesses!

[olger]

Yes indeed.

peace brethren,

G

[CoAspen]

The early messenger responsible for, in concert with the Word, the vast majority of the pillars of the Adventist church so far as I know, never asked for nor was "honored" with approval by fiat in order to pass on what God had ordained necessary and appropriate for her input. Those who decide to take the "bull by the horns" when they don't get their way, reveal the church they belong to, of which there are only two.

1. The church of Jesus Christ

2. The synagogue of satan.

There may be some room there for those too immature and ignorant not to be able to discern the difference between the church of God and the enemy of souls and Jesus left this promise for those.

"And Jesus said, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And parting his garments among them, they cast lots]."Luke 23:34 ASV underlined mine LHC meaning "lots of luck.

God blesses!

I will give you the benefit of doubt and presume that you are saying all belong to the Church Of Jesus Christ. I'm sure you would not want anyone to think that you are suggesting

that those going forward with the recognition of the calling of women by the H*S are in league with satan!

[CoAspen]

Still waiting for some verification as to the validity of the original posting....anyone seen anything yet?

[olger]

The author is Mary Hilde.

rejoice ever,

`oG

[teresaq]

It is statements such as this which make it an inflammatory issue. Here on C/A there are some mods and some members are obviously very much in favor of keeping the issue alive which pits members against members creating a hostile environment. In every sector of civilization there is a protocol which can either allow things to run smoothly in their own time or create ciaos and mass dissension.

You may have a point...yet I wonder... if the civil war had not happened would we still be waiting for the pro-slavery side to come around just to keep the peace and unity of the nation?

Would we even have this great nation, relative 'peace and safety', freedom of religion, among a few if our forebears had waited?

Would the Reformation have taken place if the reformers had waited for the world church to come around?

[JoeMo]

Right on, Teresa!

Our Lord Jesus didn't exactly cooperate with the established church, either.

I'm still with Gail on a post on a different thread on the same subject. If WO isn't even a salvational issue, why are we arguing about it and insulting each other? Implying that some here are of the synagogue of satan?! Goodness!

Is this the love that Christ spoke of when He said "this is how people will know my followers?"

Look at the "recent posts" from the pull-down menu at the top of the page. 90% of the posts concern the subject of WO; and half of them are inflammatory!

Give it a rest!

[teresaq]

Quote:

"Furthermore, it appeared everything that could possibly be done to manipulate the decision of the delegates was done.

That is certainly in the eyes of the beholder. I wonder if 'her' definition of 'manipulate' fits the recognized definition.

Quote:

Absolutely no time was given to represent opposing viewpoints, held by the majority of Adventists.

That assumed majority hadn't been thoroughly indoctrinated by those like Doug Batchelor and Sam Pipim already?

Quote:

If all that wasn’t enough, at Sunday’s constituency session our General Conference President Ted Wilson was rudely interrupted by a woman ....

By a woman of all things! How dare she do her job and remind the Pres he was running over time...perhaps disrespectfully running overtime? If people are allotted a certain amount of time to have their say, wouldn't it behoove them to respectfully abide by that?

Quote:

This was followed with the proponents of women’s ordination clapping and jeering. I couldn’t help but think this was surely one time where quieting a clucking woman in church should have applied. I was appalled at such a lack of respect for our president, and the sorely underrepresented “other” viewpoint.

Oh now this is where professionals in the mental health field should step in and tell us what more than likely was this 'woman's' upbringing and home life.

[Woody]

Quote:

You may have a point...yet I wonder... if the civil war had not happened would we still be waiting for the pro-slavery side to come around just to keep the peace and unity of the nation?

[R. G.]

Perhaps the Lord made a mistake when he chose a woman to preach, teach and instruct the entire 17 million community of faith. There is no highest honor granted to a human being than that of being his messenger, and should we deny women the much lower honor to teach a few hundred members? Are we this blind to what the Lord did a century ago?

If it wasn't a mistake for God to choose a woman as a messenger, then why are you not listening to her? She said that God intends for the General Conference delegates, meeting in regular session, to have authority. Those delegates, so far, have consistently refused to allow the ordination of women to the Adventist ministry. So, where is your respect for God's messenger?

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

Perhaps the Lord made a mistake when he chose a woman to preach, teach and instruct the entire 17 million community of faith. There is no highest honor granted to a human being than that of being his messenger, and should we deny women the much lower honor to teach a few hundred members? Are we this blind to what the Lord did a century ago?

If it wasn't a mistake for God to choose a woman as a messenger, then why are you not listening to her? She said that God intends for the General Conference delegates, meeting in regular session, to have authority. Those delegates, so far, have consistently refused to allow the ordination of women to the Adventist ministry. So, where is your respect for God's messenger?

[R. G.]

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

The early messenger responsible for, in concert with the Word, the vast majority of the pillars of the Adventist church so far as I know, never asked for nor was "honored" with approval by fiat in order to pass on what God had ordained necessary and appropriate for her input. Those who decide to take the "bull by the horns" when they don't get their way, reveal the church they belong to, of which there are only two.

1. The church of Jesus Christ

2. The synagogue of satan.

There may be some room there for those too immature and ignorant not to be able to discern the difference between the church of God and the enemy of souls and Jesus left this promise for those.

"And Jesus said, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And parting his garments among them, they cast lots]."Luke 23:34 ASV underlined mine LHC meaning "lots of luck.

God blesses!

I will give you the benefit of doubt and presume that you are saying all belong to the Church Of Jesus Christ. I'm sure you would not want anyone to think that you are suggesting

that those going forward with the recognition of the calling of women by the H*S are in league with satan!

Co-Aspen's meaning was quite clear to me. He was suggesting that those who "take the bull by the horns" may belong to the wrong "church." Perhaps it would be more appropriate to ask what he or she means by "taking the bull by the horns." If the reference is to blatant and flippant rebellion against legitimate church authority, as represented by actions by the General Conference delegates in regular session, then I think there may just be food for thought...

[R. G.]

Right on, Teresa!

Our Lord Jesus didn't exactly cooperate with the established church, either.

I'm still with Gail on a post on a different thread on the same subject. If WO isn't even a salvational issue, why are we arguing about it and insulting each other? Implying that some here are of the synagogue of satan?! Goodness!

Is this the love that Christ spoke of when He said "this is how people will know my followers?"

Look at the "recent posts" from the pull-down menu at the top of the page. 90% of the posts concern the subject of WO; and half of them are inflammatory!

Give it a rest!

If the ordination of women isn't even a salvation issue, then why can't everyone just submit to legitimate church authority? We've got much bigger issues at stake, such as church leaders abusing their "authority" in order to promote Sunday keeping in a part of the world church. Now, that's a salvation issue. Pick your battles, folks!

[Woody]

Quote:

We've got much bigger issues at stake, such as church leaders abusing their "authority" in order to promote Sunday keeping in a part of the world church. Now, that's a salvation issue. Pick your battles, folks!

Well if we are going to compare the two - I think the WO issue is much more important. I wouldn't give the authority issue of Sunday - the time of day.

[Gordon1]

Female clergy & Sunday worship both challenge God's established order.

[Woody]

Quote:

We've got much bigger issues at stake, such as church leaders abusing their "authority" in order to promote Sunday keeping in a part of the world church. Now, that's a salvation issue. Pick your battles, folks!

I support Ted on the Sunday "authority" issue. So - that leaves me with the WO issue.