One woman's perspective on the PUC meeting...

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

This thread sorta reminds me of watching children having a temper tantrum as a reaction to authority...

[Woody]

This thread sorta reminds me of watching children having a temper tantrum as a reaction to authority...

Which side would you be referring to?

[Gerr]

Be grieved all you want. It was NOT the world churches decision to not allow a commisioned pastor be president of a conference. That was Ted Wilson who overturned the NADs decision on that. I will continue to speak the truth. People did not like what Ellen White had to say on Kingly authority either. People like a strong central government. They like the president to come down hard on all dissenters.

So be grieved all you wish.

I think I know what kind of spirit actuates this kind of attitude.

Quote:

Ellen White herself was a victim of kingly authority.

If the president is exercising "kingly authority" by enforcing what the world chuher to austrlia to silence her speaking more on rightousness by faith.rch had decided, then so be it. I am confident that the Lord can take care of His church.

[doug yowell]

[ Ted Wilson would do well to lead the church to finish the work of the last days and quit trying to enforce policy that conflicts with our #14 fundamental belief.

If there was no conflict between the GC and PUC why then did PUC need to ask their constituents for a change in the union bylaws to allow for a practice that the GC had clearly prohibited in the 1990's? Is GC policy intended to be interpreted as open to local interpretation according to Fundamental #14?

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: CyberGuy

[ Ted Wilson would do well to lead the church to finish the work of the last days and quit trying to enforce policy that conflicts with our #14 fundamental belief.

If there was no conflict between the GC and PUC why then did PUC need to ask their constituents for a change in the union bylaws to allow for a practice that the GC had clearly prohibited in the 1990's? Is GC policy intended to be interpreted as open to local interpretation according to Fundamental #14?

Excellent point!

]

[Woody]

Quote:

I think I know what kind of spirit actuates this kind of attitude.

It's very difficult to judge the kind of spirit and attitude someone has in this medium of the internet. You are not able to hear his voice, see his face and truly understand what he is attempting to say. Best to just stick with the issues rather than judging each other.

[Gerr]

Quote:

I think I know what kind of spirit actuates this kind of attitude.

It's very difficult to judge the kind of spirit and attitude someone has in this medium of the internet. You are not able to hear his voice, see his face and truly understand what he is attempting to say. Best to just stick with the issues rather than judging each other.

As Olger says it - Condemnation bad, discernment good.

[Naomi]

Quote:

As Olger says it - Condemnation bad, discernment good.

[Tom Wetmore]

As Olger says it - Condemnation bad, discernment good.

Two concepts, easily confused. Seldom right, never in doubt.

Problem is that most people think their own condemning is discernment and other people's discernment is condemnation.

[olger]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

As Olger says it - Condemnation bad, discernment good.

Two concepts, easily confused. Seldom right, never in doubt.

Problem is that most people think their own condemning is discernment and other people's discernment is condemnation.

Too negative.

Don't worry.

Be happy.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

As Olger says it - Condemnation bad, discernment good.

Two concepts, easily confused. Seldom right, never in doubt.

Problem is that most people think their own condemning is discernment and other people's discernment is condemnation.

Did I condemn anyone?

[doug yowell]

Quote:

I think I know what kind of spirit actuates this kind of attitude.

It's very difficult to judge the kind of spirit and attitude someone has in this medium of the internet. You are not able to hear his voice, see his face and truly understand what he is attempting to say. Best to just stick with the issues rather than judging each other.

Gerry hits the mark when criticism of "kingly" leadership is employed to demonize (literally)the actions of one who was elected by the body to represent the goals of the body rather than exclusively those of one part of the body. The attempt to ignorantly attribute a personal desire to control the world church to the response of the GC president here does not originate from the Spirit of God. Neither is the spirit of truth or error discerned merely by one's facial expressions or voice intonations or else Jesus might have been fooled in the wilderness. Gerry was responding to an attack on the GC president's character which was not sticking to the issue.That's discernment not condemnation. The attack on Ted Wilson's motives was self-condemnation.

[Woody]

Just more character assination.

You are really not able to judge what CyberGuy was trying to say nor his motives.

I see very little in the area of attempting to understand the other side by EITHER side.

If there were less of these attacks and more attempts to find common ground - I think we might feel a much better spirit here.

[teresaq]

Now just this past week my dad who is retired got a notice that the old retirement plan will be bankrupt in two years.

Wow CyberGuy! I think I would have a hard time not feeling bitter!

How many others does this affect? What will they do?

[olger]

Bitterness bad.

Forgiveness liberating.

Jesus coming.

[teresaq]

I would rather understand, empathize and sympathize than coldly, distantly unemotionally preachy/teachy you.

God bless you and your father and the others that find themselves in that position - and forgive those who cannot feel as in sympathize/empathize for others.

[olger]

Forgiveness is needed - absolutely

From Bangor Maine to Seattle Washington, from Altoona to Vacaville, let all say "I choose to forgive."

G

[jasd]

>>Female clergy & Sunday worship both challenge God's established order.<<

Oy!—say what!? --Pogo

Lydia, Apphia, Nympha, Chloe, Priscilla, Damaris, Euodias, Syntyche, and Junia - all NT co-workers (sunergo; meaning working with - not assistant to, not working for, and not apprentice to) …as unto the Lord.

Phoebe is specifically described as prostati (prostates) – meaning: one exercising authority, to be a leader, protector (shepherd/pastor), etc…

Moreoever, some of these women were instrumental in planting churches, as was EGW instrumental in planting the SDA Church which later evolved into a State Creature; that is, the .Org.

[olger]

Lydia became a believer in Acts 16, and is mentioned incidentally near the end of the chapter as Paul was released from prison and briefly met some of the brethren in her home. There is no indication that she was an elder, apostle or priest. To assume that is simply to infer what is not there. She was a believer, yes and I am grateful for the story, though it is limited.

Apphia was simply a woman in Colossae, singled out for greeting along with Philemon and Archippus. No more is known of her.

"Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church which is in his house."

"For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the household of Chloe, that there are contentions among you." There is no other mention of this Chloe.

"Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed: among the which was Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them." This is the only mention of Damaris in Scripture.

jasd, my friend. Of these individuals, which of them provide a contextual theological basis for the overthrow of Biblical patriarchy?

More later..

G

[jasd]

>>Lydia became a believer in Acts 16, and is mentioned incidentally near the end of the chapter as Paul was released from prison and briefly met some of the brethren in her home.<<

Saints Paul and Silas joined a gathering of women with whom they expounded upon the Word. All evidence points to Lydia as the head of these women: “…she was baptized, and her household,…”. The forgoing is supported by the fact that it was Lydia (there are no men in the narrative) who extended the invitation to abide in her house – and it was to Lydia that the missionaries sought upon leaving the city of Philippi.

Saint Paul preached only to the women who were gathered at the river [where prayer was routinely held] and the jailer’s household in Philippi – leaving one the ascertainment of two things: House Church and Lydia’s role as leader of that Philippian House Church.

>>There is no indication that she was an elder, apostle or priest.<<

No, none - only a leader of a House Church – the Church at Philippi.

>>Apphia was simply a woman in Colossae, singled out for greeting along with Philemon and Archippus. No more is known of her.<<

Indeed, however, she is noteworthy because of the manner by which Saint Paul addressed her. Should she have been the wife of Philemon – hers was the house where the Xtian community gathered… and by opening her house to the Xtian community - that in turn signifies that such an act marked her as a Church Leader. On the other hand, were she the wife of Archippus – the question obtains as why Saint Paul named her first before he named Archippus..

When Saint Luke and the author of Timothy named Prisca/Priscilla before they did Acquila – we are led to believe that hers was the greater role within the Xtian community.

Then again, Archippus may have been Apphia’s son, which would still leave her as a named [leader] of the church that gathered at her house – perhaps as sunergo, but co-worker/leader no less.

>>"Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church which is in his house."<<

There has been considerable divergence of opinions whether Colossians 4:15 ought rightfully to read Nympha … her house, or Nymphas … his house – or even, “their house” (earliest MS lacked the determining accents…). However, more and more, the critical translations of Writ, including the preferred NIV, are translating the text: “…Nympha, and the church which is in her house.” – thereby, indicating or otherwise portraying Nympha as another ‘weaker vessel’ functioning as a Church Leader.

[jasd]

>>"For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the household of Chloe, that there are contentions among you." There is no other mention of this Chloe.<<

1 Corinthians 1:11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them [which are of the house] of Chloe, …

Note, that the words “which are of the house” are supplied – with the actual text reading: “by them of Chloe”. What does that imply?—other than that they are converts of hers…?

However, if we accept that the translators of the KJV were correct in their italicized interpretation – then it seems that Chloe is another example of a woman leading out as a House Church Leader.

>>"Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed: among the which was Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them." This is the only mention of Damaris in Scripture.<<

Acts 17:33 So Paul departed from among them.

Acts 17:34 Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed: among the which [was] Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them.

I believe that with the qualifier “Howbeit” together with the clause “certain … clave unto him” one may rightly infer that those “certain”, which would have included Damaris – became Saint Paul’s fellowlabourers – his co-workers, if one will (perhaps, even his fellow travelers) – much in the manner of the aforenoted sunergo fellowlabourers.

Phil 4:3 And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and [with] other my fellowlabourers,

>>jasd, my friend. Of these individuals, which of them provide a contextual theological basis for the overthrow of Biblical patriarchy?<<

Singly?—perhaps none; however, together and with the general NT narrative – then together, they each did their part in attempting to fulfill Biblical egalitarianism, which of course, has been beaten-down by the Xtian Patriarchate.

“Who knows how much the progress of the Gospel has been diminished by disallowing women to minister as equals, side by side with men?”

[olger]

Is the camshaft slighted because it is not a crankshaft?

G

[M. T. Cross]

Forgiveness is needed - absolutely

From Bangor Maine to Seattle Washington, from Altoona to Vacaville, let all say "I choose to forgive."

G

Just wanted to remind you that there is a world outside of the borders of the United States.

Patriotism good

Narrow vision bad

[jasd]

>>Is the camshaft slighted because it is not a crankshaft?<<

shafts?—Freudian? :-)

One hopes that neither cam or crank is slighted but recognize that without the other – both are just pieces of metal interesting enough to be passed-off as crazzzzy art in SoHo, Nu Yawk City.

[olger]

Forsooth!