One woman's perspective on the PUC meeting...

[CoAspen]

Quote:

.....God intends for the General Conference delegates, meeting in regular session, to have authority.

Hmmmm...Pope by committee!!!

[JoeMo]

Gordon,

Really? The matter of Sunday worship is clearly established by God Himself in the 10 Commandments and reinforced by God Himself many places. I may be missing something, but show me a quote from God about the inferiority of female clergy.

Why do people insist on making such stained analogies here? First Gerry comparing WO with polygamy; then you comparing it with Sunday worship? I just don't get it. Maybe I'm too much of a rookie.

[Gordon1]

Gordon,

Really? The matter of Sunday worship is clearly established by God Himself in the 10 Commandments ... but show me a quote from God about the inferiority of female clergy.

We're all rookies Joe. But let's not celebrate it, we should be off the milk.

God makes no establishment on the matter of Sunday worship.

In like fashion, He does not ordain female clergy, inferior or otherwise.

"But I would have you know,

that the head of every man is Christ;

and the head of the woman is the man;

and the head of Christ is God."

1 Corinthians 11:3.

[CyberGuy]

It is interesting that this women put it this way. I to walked out when the people against womens ordaination twisted scipture to fit their own agenda.

The bylaws passed by 65 percent but needed 66 percent to pass a two thirds vote.

As far as punishing the PUC their is not much they can do as the money flows up to the GC from the churches to the conferences to the unions to the division to the GC. If they get to meanspirited about it the conferences could delay or withhold tithe paid to the GC. Or if the GC withholds money going back to the conferences the conferences could withhold that money from the money they send up to the GC.

It is a very sticky situation.

I get very angry when the GC president exercises kingly authority in violation of Ellen Whites council.

NC Wilson did that and raided the NAD retirement fund and spent large portion of the NAD retirement fund on various projects many times to curry favor for VOTES at the GC session.

Now just this past week my dad who is retired got a notice that the old retirement plan will be bankrupt in two years.

This is the old pre 2000 retirement plan that was paid by a portion of tithe. Now that money is almost gone thanks to NC Wilson Ted Wilsons Father.

So when I see Ted Wilson excercising Kingly aurthority and see people cheering him on It makes me livid with rage for I have seen how that affects us wall when a president of the GC excercises that kind of authority.

It hurts us all in the long run.

[Gerr]

Quote:

.....God intends for the General Conference delegates, meeting in regular session, to have authority.

Hmmmm...Pope by committee!!!

So, what are you saying, CoA? Shall we go back to the time of the judges when "there was no king" and every man was a pope unto himself?

[Gerr]

I get very angry when the GC president exercises kingly authority in violation of Ellen Whites council.

Brother Cyberguy, I am grieved by your repeated charges that Pres. Wilson is exercising "kingly authority" when all he is doing is upholding what the WORLD body has agreed upon! If the issue at hand were something you did not agree with and the president did nothing, my guess would be that you would charge him with dereliction of duty, or would you just let him stand back and do nothing?

[olger]

Brother Cyberguy, I am grieved by your repeated charges that Pres. Wilson is exercising "kingly authority" when all he is doing is upholding what the WORLD body has agreed upon! If the issue at hand were something you did not agree with and the president did nothing, my guess would be that you would charge him with dereliction of duty, or would you just let him stand back and do nothing?

I agree, Gerry. The GC is a check & balance between the divisions, and all the divisions spoke on the issue (twice).

Bruce's rhetoric is reminiscent of those who claimed that George Bush purposely steered Hurricane Katrina into New Orleans.

`oG

[Naomi]

[Gerr]

ESV | ‎1 Co 1:11 For it has been reported to me by Chloe’s people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers. ‎12 What I mean is that each one of you says, “I follow Paul,” or “I follow Apollos,” or “I follow Cephas,” or “I follow Christ.” ‎13 Is Christ divided?

‎‎ESV | ‎1 Co 1:10 I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.

[CyberGuy]

Originally Posted By: CyberGuy

I get very angry when the GC president exercises kingly authority in violation of Ellen Whites council.

Brother Cyberguy, I am grieved by your repeated charges that Pres. Wilson is exercising "kingly authority" when all he is doing is upholding what the WORLD body has agreed upon! If the issue at hand were something you did not agree with and the president did nothing, my guess would be that you would charge him with dereliction of duty, or would you just let him stand back and do nothing?

Be grieved all you want. It was NOT the world churches decision to not allow a commisioned pastor be president of a conference. That was Ted Wilson who overturned the NADs decision on that. I will continue to speak the truth. People did not like what Ellen White had to say on Kingly authority either. People like a strong central government. They like the president to come down hard on all dissenters.

Ellen White herself was a victim of kingly authority.

She was sent off to Australia after she disagreed with the GC in Session in 1888 and they sent her to austrlia to silence her speaking more on rightousness by faith.

So be grieved all you wish. The church is hurt by a strongman in the GC who tries to force his will on the church.

Remember it was Ted Wilsons father who mandated that women stop being ordained in 1972 when the church was doing just that. This was BEFORE the church in session had spoken on that matter. We should NEVER had asked the world church in session. I was a mission kid in africa and i know they think of women as second class church members. Never allow them to preach from the pulpit and never have female pastors.

[Woody]

Quote:

The church is hurt by a strongman in the GC who tries to force his will on the church.

[Gerr]

If WO was taking place before 1972, and since you haven't produced any names as I had asked, again I ask you, will you please produce names of the women that were ordained?

If WO was voted down TWICE by the WORLD CHURCH, how can you charge the president as using dictatorial tactics? Did he single-handedly vote down WO? My impressions of the NAD president is based purely on brief TV exposures. He doesn't strike me as someone who easily knuckes under pressure.

[CyberGuy]

If WO was taking place before 1972, and since you haven't produced any names as I had asked, again I ask you, will you please produce names of the women that were ordained?

If WO was voted down TWICE by the WORLD CHURCH, how can you charge the president as using dictatorial tactics? Did he single-handedly vote down WO? My impressions of the NAD president is based purely on brief TV exposures. He doesn't strike me as someone who easily knuckes under pressure.

Women were being ordained world wide in China and Europe and the USA. Hard to get names as those who were ordained prior to 1972 which is 40 years ago are dead by now. Yet my parents tell me that there were indeed women who were ordained in their lifetimes.

[CyberGuy]

You will find Ellen Whites ordaination credentials by the Michigan Conference here. Issued twice.

While it is true Ellen White did not have a laying on of hands she did receive the ordcaination paperword twice.

http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/wo/welcomeapp1.htm

[teresaq]

That sounds like criminal actions...but I suppose nothing will be done...

[Gerr]

You will find Ellen Whites ordaination credentials by the Michigan Conference here. Issued twice.

While it is true Ellen White did not have a laying on of hands she did receive the ordcaination paperword twice.

http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/wo/welcomeapp1.htm

Any OTHERS? EGW was not exactly your usual woman preacher!!!

[Woody]

Actually - the actual number of credentials was more like two dozen.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Quote:

The church is hurt by a strongman in the GC who tries to force his will on the church.

And now a word from one of the most prominent female ordained SDA pastors and very good friend of mine - Cindy Tutsch:

"The Scriptures say, "You should not speak evil of any of your rulers." Acts 23:5 I can't agree with everything they do, politically or ecclesiastically, but wowsers, people! Didn't our moms teach us something about r-e-s-p-e-c-t???'"

Apparently, not all parents taught their children r-e-s-p-e-c-t .... as evidenced by the continuing diatribes against Ted Wilson on this forum. Shame on you.

[Gerr]

And now a word from one of the most prominent female ordained SDA pastors and very good friend of mine - Cindy Tutsch:

"The Scriptures say, "You should not speak evil of any of your rulers." Acts 23:5 I can't agree with everything they do, politically or ecclesiastically, but wowsers, people! Didn't our moms teach us something about r-e-s-p-e-c-t???'"

Apparently, not all parents taught their children r-e-s-p-e-c-t .... as evidenced by the continuing diatribes against Ted Wilson on this forum. Shame on you.

David felt conscience striken just by cutting off a piece of the king's garment!

[Gerr]

Actually - the actual number of credentials was more like two dozen.

Hearsay.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: CyberGuy

You will find Ellen Whites ordaination credentials by the Michigan Conference here. Issued twice.

While it is true Ellen White did not have a laying on of hands she did receive the ordcaination paperword twice.

http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/wo/welcomeapp1.htm

Any OTHERS? EGW was not exactly your usual woman preacher!!!

Lulu Wightman was listed in the yearbooks as ordained.

Regardless, just one should have been enough. EGW had ordained credentials and was listed in the yearbooks as such for years. Period. All the explaining away changes nada. Nor minds one way or the other.

There should be a tape recording or similar where every time these kinds of questions are asked just set the recorder on playback and save everyone's time.

[teresaq]

Shall we go back to the time of the judges when "there was no king" and every man was a pope unto himself?

I'm confused by this statement. Are you saying the Israelites did a good thing asking for a king?

[CyberGuy]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

And now a word from one of the most prominent female ordained SDA pastors and very good friend of mine - Cindy Tutsch:

"The Scriptures say, "You should not speak evil of any of your rulers." Acts 23:5 I can't agree with everything they do, politically or ecclesiastically, but wowsers, people! Didn't our moms teach us something about r-e-s-p-e-c-t???'"

Apparently, not all parents taught their children r-e-s-p-e-c-t .... as evidenced by the continuing diatribes against Ted Wilson on this forum. Shame on you.

David felt conscience striken just by cutting off a piece of the king's garment!

As long as Ted Wilson continues to use Kingly authority I will be quoting SOP against that use of dictorial powers.

Respect seems to be to shut up and say nothing when we see our leadership straying from the coucils of God. That is not respect.

Respect is a two way street. When Ted and his cronies stop calling us Rebels and say we are in rebellion we can talk about respect towards the GC Leadership.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

As long as Ted Wilson continues to use Kingly authority I will be quoting SOP against that use of dictorial powers.

that's okay... I mistakenly had thought that the Word of God would trump SOP..

Originally Posted By: cyberguy

Respect seems to be to shut up and say nothing when we see our leadership straying from the coucils of God. That is not respect.

And leadership should say nothing when they perceive folks "straying from the coucils[sic] of God"? That's an interesting conundrum..

Originally Posted By: cyberguy

Respect is a two way street. When Ted and his cronies stop calling us Rebels and say we are in rebellion we can talk about respect towards the GC Leadership.

By virtue of the fact that Ted Wilson is the elected leader of the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists, gives him the right, biblically and ethically, to have respect. Oh wait...I forgot...biblical injunctions to give leaders respect can be ignored, in favor of an "I AM RIGHT AND I'M GOING TO BE RUDE AND LIBELOUS TOWARD LEADERS WHO PRESENT A DIFFERENT VIEW THAN WHAT I BELIEVE."

okay...carry on..

**shrugs**

[CyberGuy]

Originally Posted By: cyberguy

As long as Ted Wilson continues to use Kingly authority I will be quoting SOP against that use of dictorial powers.

that's okay... I mistakenly had thought that the Word of God would trump SOP..

Originally Posted By: cyberguy

Respect seems to be to shut up and say nothing when we see our leadership straying from the coucils of God. That is not respect.

And leadership should say nothing when they perceive folks "straying from the coucils[sic] of God"? That's an interesting conundrum..

Originally Posted By: cyberguy

Respect is a two way street. When Ted and his cronies stop calling us Rebels and say we are in rebellion we can talk about respect towards the GC Leadership.

By virtue of the fact that Ted Wilson is the elected leader of the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists, gives him the right, biblically and ethically, to have respect. Oh wait...I forgot...biblical injunctions to give leaders respect can be ignored, in favor of an "I AM RIGHT AND I'M GOING TO BE RUDE AND LIBELOUS TOWARD LEADERS WHO PRESENT A DIFFERENT VIEW THAN WHAT I BELIEVE."

okay...carry on..

**shrugs**

SOP is the lessor light. What is said in SOP is Gods Council for his church in the latter days. No where will you find that James in the first Church exercised kingly authority and dictated to the church what must be done. When that startd was in the days when Popery started and we know how that ended up.

Leadership can say all they want but when they start calling people rebels and use the word rebellion that only hardens the position on both sides. But that seems to be ok with you.

Just because a leader is elected does not give that person the right to call people rebels and rebelious. You seem to think Ted Wilson can be rude to us and we have to be bow and cotow and kiss his hand just because he is the GC president.

Libelous? ALL I have said is the truth. It does not make it libelous just because it offends you and you do not want to hear it. Ted Wilson would do well to lead the church to finish the work of the last days and quit trying to enforce policy that conflicts with our #14 fundamental belief.