Grace=Salvation; Works=Witness?

[JoeMo]

In this Theological Townhall, many of the discussions eventually evolve into a debate concerning "Are we saved by grace or are we saved by works?" There are many supporters on both sides; and even several who contend that it is a mix of the two. Even though I am strongly in the "saved by grace" camp, out of intellectual honesty I have to admit that either side can present a logical argument; but I have yet to see one side "convert" anyone to the other.

Be that as it may, I hope one thing we can all agree with is that our works are indeed our witness to the world as to where our faith lies. Theoretically at least, people should be able to tell whether or not we are believers by how we act. Recent research shows that that may not be the case. Statistics show that the incidence of things like divorce, alcoholism, drug abuse, and pornography use is not significantly different between believers and non-believers (I'm referring to Christians in a global sense; not just SDA's).

In my personal experience, I have noticed one significant difference between Christians and non-Christians. Christians are generally less tolerant and more judgemental and condemning of others (even within their own people group)than non-Christians. Recent experience on CA has shown this to be true. I look at the debate about WO, on "Are We Redeemed", "Love Is The Answer", and other threads, and we tear each other apart.

Does anyone besides me find this rather appalling? What kind of witnesses are we being? Are we representing Christ with these attitudes?

[Gibs]

The truth is a sword that cuts both ways. This thing of salvation is not a fun and games thing. It is a battle a fierce battle with the adversary Satan. It is a matter of eternal life or eternal death.

What I find apalling is some have come to believe they are to be saved in sin and committing sin. We must be dead to sin and continuing in it. To say we can't is going along with Satan that we cannot. He would like for all to believe he is their master and we cannot break from him.

For sure he is master of you to whom ye obey. Let us choose this day Christ is the one and only Master and He only will I obey. Can it be done? Yes He gives to each who will come as directed His Power, Divine Nature and all things are now possible for him who has faith and truly believes in Him.

Satan is a defeated foe to him whom Christ dwells within!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Tom Wetmore]

* * *

Does anyone besides me find this rather appalling? What kind of witnesses are we being? Are we representing Christ with these attitudes?

It is very disturbing, even disgusting, particularly when some seem tone deaf to their own contribution to it and remain in self-justifying denial when questioned or confronted.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Be that as it may, I hope one thing we can all agree with is that our works are indeed our witness to the world as to where our faith lies.

I agree with you perfectly. And it would be right even if I disagreed vehemenently. We are living in an age when right is seen as wrong and it's not going to get any better anytime soon. What I pray for is to find resolute sowing of the seed as a plus, in the worst of times.

"So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it."Isaiah 55:11 NKJV

God blesses!

[Gibs]

Talking about witnessing, had it not better be of the truth of His Word rather than what we want it it to say. We must make sure not to bear a false witness.

1Jo 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1Jo 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

And we turn around and hear it all the time, none can keep from sinning.

Mt 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[JoeMo]

The world is watching us. We can be keeping the 10 Commandments (as we understand them) "perfectly" in our mind; but if we have not love, it is meaningless (See 1 Cor. 13). Jesus gave us a new commandment - to love one another. If we are judging and condemning others here, at church, or in the world because they are not as "good" as we are, we are no better than non-believers. Our witness is not only obeying, it is loving. IMO, most non-believers could care less if we are vegetarians, tea totalers, or Sabbath keepers; they are watching how we treat one another and non-believers. Look at the posts by our resident pagans on this site. They are mostly disturbed by how we treat each other.

be Blessed and Happy Sabbath,

JoeMo

[Woody]

Good Point JoeMo.

Surely we can do better.

[Naomi]

JoeMo ... Happy Sabbath to you

[Robert]

The world is watching us. We can be keeping the 10 Commandments (as we understand them) "perfectly" in our mind; but if we have not love, it is meaningless (See 1 Cor. 13).

1 Cor 13:5 Love (agape) is not self-seeking.

You see if you keep the law in order to gain heaven...if you keep the law in order to be seen, then in reality you aren't keeping the law you are keeping sin!

Why? The only way to keep the law is through agape. Agape is the ingredient that makes law keeping possible. Hence "agape is the fulfillment of the law" It takes agape to fulfill the law.

What is agape? Well, 1 cor 13:3 gives an example to what it is not:

If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love (agape), I gain nothing.

Note - "that I may boast"! You see agape is a selfless love. It is always done without self in mind. Agape lives for other without thinking about how to get something in return.

But if I give all my possessions to the poor so that I'll be thought of as a righteous man...or so I can be popular at my church...or so I can't get my name in the news paper, then I'm doing the right thing outwardly for the wrong reason. That's iniquity or sin.

That's because the law requires not only my action to be perfect, but my motive as well.

[Robert]

Quote:

or so I can't get my name in the news paper

The above should read "so I can"

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Look at the posts by our resident pagans on this site. They are mostly disturbed by how we treat each other.

It is a good thing to get the approval of those Jesus came to save. However if we are looking for the approval of the non-believer to find assurance we are where God wishes us to be, we will be constantly disappointed if not depressed to the point of leaving our own trust in our Father"s care for us.

"“Then you will be arrested, persecuted, and killed. You will be hated all over the world because you are my followers."Matthew 24:9 NLT

God blesses!

[Gibs]

We are admonished as true believers in Jesus Christ to worship Him only.

Mt 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

And then He tells us,

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

We do not see Him, but He is ever present always, Omnipresent. Our prayer need ascend nowhere and we can commune with Him continually. He knows our mind and heart even better than we do. We cannot deceive Him in no way. So we see it better be in truth as that only will be accepted. We can deceive ourselves but not Him!

Let us not deceive ourselves in any way, and especially of the salvation issue, root it out first.

We are to be His withesses that He is God and He is our salvation, strength and stay and our all in all.

If we witness not the absolute truth, are we His witness?

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gibs]

Communing with Him continually is surely our desire and must for the perilous time we are entering. Knowing we love Him with ALL our HEART and SOUL.

How could we while communing with Him delve into any sin. Is He who is now in you not far greater than the great adversary , Satan?

Walking with God in this way will be our way and beginning now! Enoch walked with God and can we not? Have we any excuse that we cannot?

When,

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[JoeMo]

LHC,

I'm not looking for approval of the non-believers that visit this site. I'm not even trying to convert them. Faith is a gift from God - not from me. Like Gibs says, we are to worship the Lord God only. By His grace, I will never stop worshipping the Father and His Son, Jesus. I'm not as concerned about staying the the good graces of the denomination or our non-believing friends.

What I am concerned about is how poorly we treat one another; and what a lousy witness that is. We are getting in the way of any grace and gifts God may want to bestow upon them. Our self-righteous judgement on each other in the name of the law or the SoP isn't going to get either us or anyone else saved. Only God's grace given through the sacrificial blood of Jesus Christ will save us.

[Gibs]

JoeMo,

I think LHC is seeing another angle of this. I too feel we are not to try to downgrade in our responses and I don't see that from LHC as maybe you do. I see Jesus made some strong admonitions, more so than John the Baptist. Here is an example,

Mt 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Mt 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

Mt 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

Mt 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

Mt 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Mt 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

We are to Love Him above all even when it puts us at variance with anyone, He is first and we are to uphold Him and His Truth First.

We are learners at His feet and forever eternally we will be in His class of learning.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[JoeMo]

OK Gibs,

I see your point as a point of view, although it remains different from mine. Perfectly fine; because I see the consistency and sincerity of your heart.

You too, LHC. I mean no offense.

[Robert]

We are to Love Him above all....

And you can't do that if

1] He demands perfection

or

2] punishment for our failure.

Only God's agape for us draws us towards Him. Anything else are smoke and mirrors.

[Gibs]

I assure you Robert that what He desires of me does not affect my total love for Him. He is Love and is righteous true and just and I love Him with all my heart and soul. I live to please Him and Him only. My will is to do His Will nothing witheld and I love His Law, it is in me and part of me, it is now my thing to do.

Mt 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

You see, I believe and have this faith,

Mr 10:27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Re 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

He is the consuming fire of the second resurrection and the unrepenting of sin and rebellion will be devoured by Him. They will be as they never were without any existence. No trace of existence eternally.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[M. T. Cross]

In this Theological Townhall, many of the discussions eventually evolve into a debate concerning "Are we saved by grace or are we saved by works?" There are many supporters on both sides; and even several who contend that it is a mix of the two. Even though I am strongly in the "saved by grace" camp, out of intellectual honesty I have to admit that either side can present a logical argument; but I have yet to see one side "convert" anyone to the other.

Be that as it may, I hope one thing we can all agree with is that our works are indeed our witness to the world as to where our faith lies. Theoretically at least, people should be able to tell whether or not we are believers by how we act. Recent research shows that that may not be the case. Statistics show that the incidence of things like divorce, alcoholism, drug abuse, and pornography use is not significantly different between believers and non-believers (I'm referring to Christians in a global sense; not just SDA's).

In my personal experience, I have noticed one significant difference between Christians and non-Christians. Christians are generally less tolerant and more judgemental and condemning of others (even within their own people group)than non-Christians. Recent experience on CA has shown this to be true. I look at the debate about WO, on "Are We Redeemed", "Love Is The Answer", and other threads, and we tear each other apart.

Does anyone besides me find this rather appalling? What kind of witnesses are we being? Are we representing Christ with these attitudes?

In the Asatru religion there is a saying, "We are our deeds". A persons deed does not determine their "redepmption or "salvation", but itdoes affect their world, it speaks to others of what fruits that their faith/beliefs bear.

Some questions I think that each person regardless of faith (or lack thereof) needs to ask themselves daily.

Have I treated my family well?

Have I been loyal?

Have I treated others with respect and dignity?

Have I been courteous and generous?

Have I been honest with myself and others?

Have I been true to my beliefs?

[Robert]

I assure you Robert that what He desires of me does not affect my total love for Him.

[Gibs]

No, not out of context, and again you don't bring forth the whole of it,

ALL THINGS, Robert, don't you know that makes it in context!

Mr 10:27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

God is not limited you know,

Lu 1:37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.

And Christ has ALL power too!

Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

Have I treated my family well?

Have I been loyal?

Have I treated others with respect and dignity?

Have I been courteous and generous?

Have I been honest with myself and others?

Have I been true to my beliefs?

So many people talk about works/results being the outcome of ones belief.......walking the talk....money where your mouth is.......etc...etc...where's the beef??

[Gibs]

The "beef" is the fruit of faith in the case of discussion.

Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[JoeMo]

The fruit of our faith is our witness - some of which is in the questions asked by MT and CoAspen. That fruit may well be what some need to "eat" to put them on the road to salvation. We are the only Bible some people will ever read.

But works are not a prerequisite for our salvation. The grace (unmerited favor) of the father and His Son, Jesus are the sole prerequisite for our salvation. Works are the result of our salvation.

[M. T. Cross]

The fruit of our faith is our witness - some of which is in the questions asked by MT and CoAspen. That fruit may well be what some need to "eat" to put them on the road to salvation. We are the only Bible some people will ever read.

But works are not a prerequisite for our salvation. The grace (unmerited favor) of the father and His Son, Jesus are the sole prerequisite for our salvation. Works are the result of our salvation.

Which is what I am kind of trying to say, minus the salvation part. A persons faith, if they truly believe it, will be shown by their "works" or deeds. Those should be just natural byproducts of the faith itself.