Grace=Salvation; Works=Witness?

[Robert]

The "good" thing we can do Robert is come to His Throne of Grace and fully repent and be broken of self and pride that He becomes our Master that He may dwell in us.

Yes, but that's not what the context of Matt chapter 19 is stating....

[Gibs]

He was telling the rich man what he must do to have treasure in Heaven but he was not willing to give up all his richs. He loved more than anything else. Yes Jesus was telling him to surrender all. All must do that, surrender all that we have and are, broken, crushed, dead of self pride and a new person He is now the Only Master of.

He who is not overcoming hasn't made Jesus Christ his Master yet!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[JoeMo]

Below are two key commands given by Jesus towards the end of His earthly sojourn:

1. "A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another." (John 13:34-35)

2. "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen." (Matt. 28:19-20)

Jesus commands us to love one another (even our enemies)as we love ourselves; to feed the hungry, to talke care of widows and orphans .... Basically, His life was about teaching us to love. In my read of the gospels, Jesus said much more about love and kingdom power than He did about doctrine. The only people I remember Him condemning was the establishment church (i.e., the Pharisees, scribes, and Saducees)! Let that be a lesson for us today.

[Gibs]

Included was His admonition,

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Love only will keep them. He wants us to have love full scale. To love Him is to know Him. When we know and love Him His will for us has become our utmost desire to do.

And He lets us know,

Re 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Re 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Re 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Re 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Re 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Re 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

We surely must take those statements to heart.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[CoAspen]

Below are two key commands given by Jesus towards the end of His earthly sojourn:

1. "A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another." (John 13:34-35)

2. "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen." (Matt. 28:19-20)

Jesus commands us to love one another (even our enemies)as we love ourselves; to feed the hungry, to talke care of widows and orphans .... Basically, His life was about teaching us to love. In my read of the gospels, Jesus said much more about love and kingdom power than He did about doctrine. The only people I remember Him condemning was the establishment church (i.e., the Pharisees, scribes, and Saducees)! Let that be a lesson for us today.

Excellent...no need to continue this round and round. Do we love a wrathful God or a loving God?

[JoeMo]

I vote for the latter.

[phkrause]

In this Theological Townhall, many of the discussions eventually evolve into a debate concerning "Are we saved by grace or are we saved by works?" There are many supporters on both sides; and even several who contend that it is a mix of the two. Even though I am strongly in the "saved by grace" camp, out of intellectual honesty I have to admit that either side can present a logical argument; but I have yet to see one side "convert" anyone to the other.

Be that as it may, I hope one thing we can all agree with is that our works are indeed our witness to the world as to where our faith lies. Theoretically at least, people should be able to tell whether or not we are believers by how we act. Recent research shows that that may not be the case. Statistics show that the incidence of things like divorce, alcoholism, drug abuse, and pornography use is not significantly different between believers and non-believers (I'm referring to Christians in a global sense; not just SDA's).

In my personal experience, I have noticed one significant difference between Christians and non-Christians. Christians are generally less tolerant and more judgemental and condemning of others (even within their own people group)than non-Christians. Recent experience on CA has shown this to be true. I look at the debate about WO, on "Are We Redeemed", "Love Is The Answer", and other threads, and we tear each other apart.

Does anyone besides me find this rather appalling? What kind of witnesses are we being? Are we representing Christ with these attitudes?

I agree 100% with you.

[Robert]

He was telling the rich man what he must do to have treasure in Heaven but he was not willing to give up all his richs.

So Christ is teaching the man to trade one form of selfishness for another? I'm sorry, that's not agape. Agape, by definition, is not self-seeking. Giving up his riches to get riches is still selfishness - it's still sin.

Try again.

[JoeMo]

Gibs and Robert,

Just my two bits, but in the story of the rich young prince, I believe Jesus was showing the rich guy just how ridiculous it was for him to think he could earn his way to heaven by asking him to do something ridiculous. His disciples were His disciples because of relationship - they LOVED Jesus. Jesus didn't keep them around because they were totally obedient to Him. He kept them around because they were his best friends. Just as an example, Judas betrayed Him, Peter denied Him, Phillip was as dumb as a box of hammers, and Mary Magdelene was a harlot. These people were His disciples because Jesus liked to hang out with them; and they liked to hang out with Him! It's amazing how much being friends will motivate you to do things for each other out of love; not just submission to rules.

Let's just try hanging out with Jesus cuz we like hanging out with Him. It works really well for me.

[Robert]

I believe Jesus was showing the rich guy just how ridiculous it was for him to think he could earn his way to heaven

Bingo! And I can prove you right..but Gibs will ignore what I write...so....

[JawgeFromJawja]

Quote:

Have I treated my family well?

Have I been loyal?

Have I treated others with respect and dignity?

Have I been courteous and generous?

Have I been honest with myself and others?

Have I been true to my beliefs?

So many people talk about works/results being the outcome of ones belief.......walking the talk....money where your mouth is.......etc...etc...where's the beef??

Another

So, it appears that there are two major doctrines, each with variations and subsets.

Doctrine One is the most preposterous of the two, i.e., that one accepting Jesus is sinless from that point on.

Doctrine Two is the most positive one of the two, that we do continue to sin in the flesh, being in the flesh, but that through faith, the blood of Jesus cleanses our spiritual selves.

One of the most popular psychology books of the twentieth century was I’m Okay – You’re Okay.

For one accepting Christ, God’s attitude becomes rather, I’m Okay, you’re not Okay, but – that’s Okay.

As far as not sinning. Hmmm. We are all human, all flesh, right? But how about the Commandments? Does the sanctified Christian keep them all.

Well, lessee: not many of us commit murder. It’s bound to get you talked about.Gloss over that one. Insignificant for most of us.

Then there’s lying, false witness. I dunno anybody who does not lie. Nobody. No Adventists of my ken. Not even any Baptists – can you imagine? Sometimes we lie to protect ourselves from pain (temporarily), and sometimes to protect the one being lied to or about. Altruistic, but it’s still lying.

Gibs and others, any of you willing to make fools of yerselves and affirm that you never, ever, under any and all circumstances, lie? Of course, if you make such a preposterous statement, those who hear you and know you intimately will roll their eyes, at least figuratively. Subsequently, you will sheepishly creep around them until such time as you erroneously figure they have forgotten your lie about never lying – that is, you lie about never sinning. Same thing.

Then Commandment Number 1: Thou shalt have no other Gods before me. The person who says he (she) never breaks this ‘un does not consider that anytime God does not come first in any endeavor, anytime God is not extolled in what we are doing, then that guy or doll is breaking commandment # 1.

And what about The Second? Oh, the second. Anytime we do not live up to Christ’s Commandments, Christ’s precepts, we take the label Christian in vain. Christ’s name in vain. God’s name in vain. You may disagree, but only because you are caught, busted, and are without excuse.

And how about no graven images? Well, hmmm – Hardly anybody in any twenty-first century Western country violates than ‘un. Hardly. But think. There are probably examples, possibly unconscious, among Christians.

And the Fourth? The famous or infamous, the notable or the notorious Fourth? Let’s don’t go there, for fear of starting World War III right here on Club Adventist. Most Protestants couldn’t be less concerned about a day given as a token between God and Israel, with explicit Scripture so stating. But let’s don’t go there. For now, if you go there, you are off topic. You all, we all, have a lot more to answer for than just the Fourth Commandment. A lot more.

Honor your father and mother. Another Hmmm. There are so many potential seemingly insignificant little slights and over sights with this commandment ,some deliberate, some actual slips of the mind. But when we absent mindedly “forget” Mom or Dad, are we not then dishonoring them? Are we according them the respect they deserve by being careless and thoughtless about those who gave us life? This may be the most demanding of attention, the most frequently broken commandment of all. Don’t any of you lie to me and say that you are always perfect in keeping this one, for then you break two commandments.

Thou shalt not commit adultery. Should any of you tell me you never look askance at the other sex (or same sex, if you are so oriented), or never, ever even remotely consider a surreptitious laiason, then I shall probably vomit. However, The Lord did tell us explicitly that such thinking is the equivalent of the actual act. And as far as the actual act, oh my. Oh my. So many of us actually do, not just think of, the dirty deed. Oh my. And yet, my dear Gibs, and yet, there will be numerous adulterous Christians with you in Paradise, sanctioned by the blood of Jesus. Will you be able to stand it?

On and on. Not just the deeds, but the attitude, the thought about the deed. You pretend, you deny, you lie about it, but all of you Christians are just as dirty, nasty,filthy, grimy, corrupt, immoral and depraved as the next Christian, who, like you, is just a sinner saved by Grace. Therein is the greatest miracle of all: that somebody as immoral as (in the present tense) you and , GASP, even I, is thoroughly cleansed by the Holy Blood of Jesus, even though sinning in the present tense.

Gibbs, such is the greatest miracle, the miracle of God’s forgivenes for the vilest sinner who continues to disobey, yes even to disobey in the present tense. I have an uncomfortable feeling that you do not grasp this. In not grasping this, the greatest miracle, you are perilously close to the single unforgivable sin, that of denying the power of God, that of blasthemy of The Holy Ghost.

May God forgive you your confessed and your denied sins, which are numerous - this is a blessing from a vile, ongoing sinner.

Agape

Agape is God-like love. God's love is unconditional for Christians.

[Gibs]

JawgeFromJawja,

I am sure to not go along with continue in sin. That is what the Christian is to find the victory over.

Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

"ALL THINGS", what is left out?

"Christ lived a human life that He might be man's example in all things. He endured temptation even as every human being must endure. He believed God as we must believe. He learned obedience even as we are required to learn obedience. And He overcame as we must overcome. His path lay through manifold temptations; therefore He knows how to succour those who are tempted." {BEcho, September 3, 1900 par. 13}

"And the heavens shall declare His righteousness: for God is judge Himself" (Psalm 50:3-6). In view of the great day of God, we can see that our only safety will be found in departing from all sin and iniquity. Those who continue in sin will be found among the condemned and perishing." {FW 116.5}

My admonition to all is, Take Hold of The Way He Has Made That You Too May be an Overcomer as He needs ALL to be.

Eternal life is at stake not just a few million dollars. We'd no doubt see some action if it were the few million dollars!

I know of nothing more important than not having your name blotted out the book that counts, His Book of Life!

Re 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

{BEcho, September 3, 1900 par. 13} {FW 116.5}

You shouldn't be quoting EGW to an non-SDA. Use your Bible....

[JoeMo]

Hi Gibs,

As I have said before, I really admire your heart and your consistency. Wouldn't it be awesome if all us believers (or any of us, for that matter) could keep the law perfectly all of the time? I love Philippians 4 13 "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me". What a worthy goal! But the verse says we CAN do all things; it doesn't say we DO do all things. I will only speak for myself here - I don't do all things that I can do. I DON'T do all the things I can for my children. I DON'T do all the things I can do for my wife. I DON'T do all the things a could do at my job. I DON'T even do all the things I could do for myself. Is it any surprise that I DON't do everything I can do for Jesus? I've never known anyone who did. That doesn't make it an unreasonable goal; but I'm not gonna waste energy lamenting the fact that I don't. I WILL however, effectively use my energy to boldly approach the throne of grace in my time of need to confess my sins and ask for grace. I will also use my energy effectively to do good works (but not all that I CAN do) as a witness to the change that God's grace has made in my life. My works are my witness of the salvation I have received through grace.

[Robert]

I know of nothing more important than not having your name blotted out the book that counts, His Book of Life!

That's fear based....The last generation of Christians "love not their lives even unto death". They think God has abandoned them because of the surrounding difficulties. Like Christ they are willing to give up heaven for their enemies.....So they aren't self-consumed about "not having" their name blotted out!

[Robert]

But the verse says we CAN do all things; it doesn't say we DO do all things.

Bingo...

The Bible also says "if we say we have no sin" we are self-deceived. So even if perfection in sinful flesh is possible, those perfected will not know it.

[Gibs]

When we can do all things, then where is the excuse for not. We don't have any excuse to not walk as Christ walked as He will come and dwell in you and You Have His Power, Divine Nature.

Don't fiddle around and continue in sin and as John state "He who is in you is Greater than he who is in the world".

The verse did not state, "I can't do all things through Christ which strengthens me.

Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

For sure all have sinned, but we are redeemed from the power of committing sin and past sin.

Put this admonition down solid in the memory banks,

"Christ imputes His perfection and righteousness to the believing sinner when he does not continue in sin, but turns from transgression to obedience of the commandments. {FLB 115.3}

While God can be just, and yet justify the sinner through the merits of Christ, no man can cover his soul with the garments of Christ's righteousness while practicing known sins, or neglecting known duties." {FLB 115.4}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[JoeMo]

Gibs,

I'm sorry to say, but your revelation is not mine. Every discussion here should not end with a debate on salvation by works vs. salvation by grace. We've debated this same subject for over 6 months. Neither of us has moved the other one even an inch. CoAspen is correct - we have beat this dog to death.

In God's revelation to me; I am saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ - not by works. I'm not going to to quote a slew of scripture to you to emphasize my point; and you don't need to re-quote to me the first half of Romans 6 again. Folks like me and Woody and Robert believe what we believe; and have staked our eternal lives on that faith. You have done the same with your faith; and I respect that. I believe God respects, it too.

I'll make you a deal - you quit trying to convince me of salvation by works by quoting the same scriptures and SoP quotes to me; and I'll quit trying to talk you into relying on grace rather than works. You quit accusing me of living in sin (which I don't do); and I'll quit telling you that you're attempting the impossible (at least to me it's impossible.) I don't see anyone but Jesus as "perfect" anywhere at any time in my life. All I've ever witnessed from any other person reinforces Paul's words that no one if perfect - no not one; and all our righteousness is as filthy rags. Let's just agree to disagree before one of us says something that offends the other. I do not want to offend you, Gibs; and hopefully, it is not your intention to offend me. But it DOES offend me when you imply that I and other are living in sin half of your responces to my posts.

[Robert]

When we can do all things, then where is the excuse for not.

Okay, so live Christ's life....Stop telling us what can be done and do it. I want to see you on CNN...

[Robert]

Christ imputes His perfection and righteousness to the believing sinner when he does not continue in sin, but turns from transgression to obedience of the commandments.

Well, EGW was not the end all of truth. Otherwise she is making it impossible.

Tell me if I wrong in my interpretation, but what I read is this: In order for Christ to imputed to me His righteousness I have to be obeying the law.

That's legalism....No way around it! If I'm obeying why do I need His robe?

[Robert]

I don't see anyone but Jesus as "perfect" ....

We may have flattered ourselves, as did Nicodemus, that our life has been upright, that our moral character is correct, and think that we need not humble the heart before God, like the common sinner: but when the light from Christ shines into our souls, we shall see how impure we are; we shall discern the selfishness of motive, the enmity against God, that has defiled every act of life. [sC 28]

[Gibs]

JoeMo,

What may be important is that some reading may see the truth of a subject that is eternal life or eternal death.

I am not trying to convince you of salvation by works JM, I'm trying to get you and any to see it is Christ in you that is your overcoming. With Him only is it possible as of ourselves it is not. Man has become too weak kneed to stand against Satan and his of ourselves.

When we do have Christ within and faith that He enables you, you are victorious as Satan sees he is a defeated foe.

Hear the one sent to us to enlighten and teach us the Word,

"Every one of us may know that there is a power working with our efforts to overcome. Why will not men lay hold upon the help that has been provided, that they may become elevated and ennobled? Why do they degrade themselves by the indulgence of perverted appetite? Why do they not rise in the strength of Jesus, and be victorious in his name? The very feeblest prayer that we can offer, Jesus will hear. He pities the weakness of every soul. Help for every one has been laid upon Him who is mighty to save. I point you to Jesus Christ, the sinner's Saviour, who alone can give you power to overcome on every point." {CTBH 148.4}

You are not fighting against me. I am a fellow traveller here caught in this sphere of sin and He has given us a way to beat it. Sin must be cleaned of the soul temple to be in the Kingdom of God.

He is not going to make you to be a non sinner without your cooperation, we have only but a little to do and man wants not to lift a finger and be saved.

From the SOP,

"We have no hesitancy in telling you that in order to obtain the immortal inheritance and the eternal substance, you must be overcomers in this probationary life. Everything that blots and stains the soul must be removed, must be cleansed from the heart. We must know what it means to be a partaker of the divine nature, having escaped the corruptions that are in the world through lust. Are you willing to wage war against the lusts of the flesh? Are you ready to battle against the enemy of God and man? Satan is determined to enslave every soul if he can; for he is playing a desperate game to win the souls of men from Christ and eternal life. Will you permit him to steal from you the graces of the Spirit of God, and plant in you his own corrupt nature? or will you accept the great provision of salvation, and through the merits of the Infinite Sacrifice made in your behalf, become a partaker of the divine nature? God has given his only-begotten Son, that through his shame, suffering, and death, you might have glory, honor, and immortality. Are you not willing to lay hold on the gracious hope set before you in the gospel? Is it humiliating to seek to win a crown of immortal glory?" {ST, June 15, 1891 par. 4}

He cries,

Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.