Grace=Salvation; Works=Witness?

[Robert]

No, not out of context,

Oh, yes...out of context.

[Robert]

The "beef" is the fruit of faith in the case of discussion.

Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Abraham was willing to kill Isaac.

Rahab, who was a prostitute, was willing to put her life on the line.

This is faith at work, but not works of the law. By the works of the law no flesh will be justified. You need to get your works straightened out. What you present is works of the law - legalism.

[JoeMo]

I agree MT,

Our works should be a natural outflowing of our faith - following our own inclinations; not out of a self-willed effort to keep some set of laws?

Do you refrain from beating your wife and children because doing so is against the law? No - your natural inclination is to NOT beat them, because you love them - even in the hard times.

[Gibs]

The faith needed though Robert is to do His Will and Love what He Loves and then you please Him.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

No Robert, you have me all wrong, in no way am I a legalist. I only point out He has to have us to be overcomers and if we aren't He can't take us into the kingdom. He makes that so very clear. Another thing He makes so very clear is He made the way that you can be a victorious one.

The old man must die to begin with, then the rest is easy as then you rise up a new creature in Him and He in you. We must obtain His Divine Nature and it comes by the death of ole # 1, self, pride, broken and crushed, now malleable to Him. We have given Him full control and He leads us by "still" waters.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

......do His Will and Love what He Loves and then you please Him.

Just an other variety of legalism!! It is not about pleaseing God! It is learning and doing what is right!! Right to God and others, plain and simple, no great mystery.

Because we want to, not have too!!!!!!

[JoeMo]

AMEN, CoAspen!

Trying to "please" God by impressing Him with our law-keeping tends to lead to self-righteousness and legalism - especially if we think we are succeeding.

I'd much rather "trust" God for His promise to write His law upon my heart, and for filling me with his Spirit. Then, out of thankfulness, trust to do His will by following my own Spirit-led inclinations.

[CoAspen]

I tire of these long topics that go round and round about 'works' and 'salvation', they are self sustaining, I think, because of a desire to make it have something we can do to obtain salvation. I feel that most of the time it is merely semantics being argued with both sides wanting to have the last definition. But there are times when one does have to post a reply to really find out where the other is going. At times there is a lot of text and quote splatter that obscures what an individuals real belief is. It seems to a topic often times started just to get people going again, because nothing ever changes. SDA's, some that is, have pet topics they can 'talk' about forever till the cows have come home, been milked, put out to pasture again untill the day they die. Why is it? I don't know. Maybe because it keeps us distracted from the real reason we are here on this earth.....for others!

[Gibs]

First I had stated, "The faith needed though Robert is to do His Will and Love what He Loves and then you please Him."

Then CoAspen you came back,

"Just an other variety of legalism!! It is not about pleaseing God! It is learning and doing what is right!! Right to God and others, plain and simple, no great mystery.

Because we want to, not have too!!!!!!"

CA,

It is the same principle as you love your wife, from your love for her you want to please her. Same thing when we Truly Love God we want to please him. You talk about a darkroom of misconception, you sure are at it. You are so bent on pasting me as a legalist, and still in another way saying what I had stated.

And so do you also take Jesus statement here the same? - - Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

"IF YOU LOVE ME" and the fact is IF you do LOVE HIM you will keep them and there is no legalism to it. Why? Because you want to above all else. What on earth would you rather do? What sin would you rather do that Satan wants you to get into?

On top of that when one falls Broken totally He then can come and dwell within and now you have His power to do as He would do in each case that comes up in your life.

Love, love is echoed when it is proven there is no love, just a cope out.

"This goody-goody religion that makes light of sin and that is forever dwelling upon the love of God to the sinner, encourages the sinner to believe that God will save him while he continues in sin and he knows it to be sin. This is the way that many are doing who profess to believe present truth. The truth is kept apart from their life, and that is the reason it has no more power to convict and convert the soul. There must be a straining of every nerve and spirit and muscle to leave the world, its customs, its practices, and its fashions. . . . {3SM 155.1}

If you put away sin and exercise living faith, the riches of heaven's blessings will be yours."--Letter 53, 1887. {3SM 155.2}

Ro 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

No Robert, you have me all wrong, in no way am I a legalist. I only point out He has to have us to be overcomers and if we aren't He can't take us into the kingdom.

Then we must become little Christ's....That's legalism.

[M. T. Cross]

I agree MT,

Our works should be a natural outflowing of our faith - following our own inclinations; not out of a self-willed effort to keep some set of laws?

[JoeMo]

Quote from EmptyCross: "my wife is a way better fighter than I am"

ROFL!! There's always that!

[Gibs]

Originally Posted By: Gibs

No Robert, you have me all wrong, in no way am I a legalist. I only point out He has to have us to be overcomers and if we aren't He can't take us into the kingdom.

Then we must become little Christ's....That's legalism.

No, not little Christ's but fully with Him and of Him and He in us. He holds our hand and we don't care to let go. We have become His little lambs.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

We have become His little lambs.

No, Gibs, we are already His little lambs. We are not His Lambs because we are good, we are His lambs because He saved us! he loved and loves us unconditionally....We have nothing to offer.

[Gibs]

Potentially we are all His little lambs but not in reality until we have come to Him and give ourselves to Him. He doesn't tear us away from Satan and make us do anything. We must of our own free will as free beings of which He will only have that will not rebell no more against Him.

The ride is not totally free, it just costs us of falling on Him in full surrender and repentance and fully we give our all into His hands. Yes He draws us to repentance. We then realize how crusty and dirty we are and in need of His Robe that He is anxious to be able to put on us.

You see a lamb follows the Shepherd and we sure weren't following until we became converted. We were ornery goats of Satan. Not that now we are "good", as there is none "good" but God.

Mt 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

Potentially we are all His little lambs but not in reality until we have come to Him and give ourselves to Him.

We are talking of those who have accepted the gospel. We are His lambs, period....

[Robert]

Mt 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

I really wish you would stop with the out of context statements!

Look at the question in Mt 19:16 "what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?"

He wanted heaven as a reward for doing good. That's the mind of a legalist. "I'll keep your rules and you owe me heaven in return"!

You see if there is none good, then none can be saved by works. That was Jesus' point, but since the man asked what he must do in order to gain heaven, Christ gives him the law! In other words if you want heaven by doing good, keep the commandments. That's the OC.

[Gibs]

The "good" thing we can do Robert is come to His Throne of Grace and fully repent and be broken of self and pride that He becomes our Master that He may dwell in us. We of ourselves can do no "good" thing. But of course, first He must draw us.

The texts I posted are very relevant to the theme I lay out if you will receive them. Certain texts like the one referred to is relevant in a lot of cases.

We must be dead to sin but it can only happen by His indwelling power in us.

Here is a square shooting text, ( no interpretation needed )

Re 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[CoAspen]

Our free will is toward sin,

it is God that calls us to Him.

He knocks, we can open or not.

Saul/Paul was blinded into submission.

[Gibs]

Cute saying there CA. I only see we need to be about changing our will from toward sin to away from it. I know it is the case until we are converted, but it should be changed after that. If not what was the conversion of? For sure we all hopefully don't need what Paul endured to turn it around but if it must be, what do you think? What should He do?

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[JawgeFromJawja]

LHC,

I'm not looking for approval of the non-believers that visit this site. I'm not even trying to convert them. Faith is a gift from God - not from me. Like Gibs says, we are to worship the Lord God only. By His grace, I will never stop worshipping the Father and His Son, Jesus. I'm not as concerned about staying the the good graces of the denomination or our non-believing friends.

What I am concerned about is how poorly we treat one another; and what a lousy witness that is. We are getting in the way of any grace and gifts God may want to bestow upon them. Our self-righteous judgement on each other in the name of the law or the SoP isn't going to get either us or anyone else saved. Only God's grace given through the sacrificial blood of Jesus Christ will save us.

How we treat one another. I just had a wonderful week's vacation. On returning to the Forum, I found that a good cyber friend who is also a committed Adventist, had bolted the Forum, precisely because of how poorly some treat others on the Forum.

Shameful.

Jawge, a committed but heretical Baptist who has been visited by God personally.

[JawgeFromJawja]

Quote:

Look at the posts by our resident pagans on this site. They are mostly disturbed by how we treat each other.

It is a good thing to get the approval of those Jesus came to save. However if we are looking for the approval of the non-believer to find assurance we are where God wishes us to be, we will be constantly disappointed if not depressed to the point of leaving our own trust in our Father"s care for us.

"“Then you will be arrested, persecuted, and killed. You will be hated all over the world because you are my followers."Matthew 24:9 NLT

God blesses!

Nonsense. Jesus pointed out the behavior of Jewish leaders who sought the approval and praise of those professing righteousness, making a show of their faith. Jesus said, "They have their reward."

Your commission as a Christian is to spread The Good News, The Gospel. Your revolting anti-Gospel of work, work, work will spread The Real Gospel of God's Love to no one.

Agape, and Good News, Good News, Good News, Good News!

[JawgeFromJawja]

LHC,

I'm not looking for approval of the non-believers that visit this site. I'm not even trying to convert them. Faith is a gift from God - not from me. Like Gibs says, we are to worship the Lord God only. By His grace, I will never stop worshipping the Father and His Son, Jesus. I'm not as concerned about staying the the good graces of the denomination or our non-believing friends.

What I am concerned about is how poorly we treat one another; and what a lousy witness that is. We are getting in the way of any grace and gifts God may want to bestow upon them. Our self-righteous judgement on each other in the name of the law or the SoP isn't going to get either us or anyone else saved. Only God's grace given through the sacrificial blood of Jesus Christ will save us.

Unfortunately, you are preaching to the choir.

Agape

[JawgeFromJawja]

The "beef" is the fruit of faith in the case of discussion.

Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Gibs, CoAspen is attempting to show you the fruit of loving works.

[JawgeFromJawja]

Originally Posted By: Gibs

We have become His little lambs.

No, Gibs, we are already His little lambs. We are not His Lambs because we are good, we are His lambs because He saved us! he loved and loves us unconditionally....We have nothing to offer.

With or without your permission, I'm gonna quote you over and over,even outside the Forum. The quote will be paraphrased to keep it legal, but with proper attributions.

Agape

[JawgeFromJawja]

Potentially we are all His little lambs but not in reality until we have come to Him and give ourselves to Him. He doesn't tear us away from Satan and make us do anything. We must of our own free will as free beings of which He will only have that will not rebell no more against Him.

The ride is not totally free, it just costs us of falling on Him in full surrender and repentance and fully we give our all into His hands. Yes He draws us to repentance. We then realize how crusty and dirty we are and in need of His Robe that He is anxious to be able to put on us.

You see a lamb follows the Shepherd and we sure weren't following until we became converted. We were ornery goats of Satan. Not that now we are "good", as there is none "good" but God.

Mt 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Salvation is a gift. You do not have to do anything for a gift. The love of the gift, however, makes you want to give, and give. Give to whom?

Matthew 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it <<loving acts>> unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

And being a gift of God, Salvation is irrevocable:

Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

The messages of these three verses are part of The Good News.

Agape.